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Hasek vs. Roy : Head-to-Head (Game-by-Game)

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06-28-2013, 12:59 PM
  #51
RewBicks
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Yeah, but i dont think there is any argument about the notion that something big evolutionary happened during the later eighties and into the nineties: The butterfly style. Roy got his early regular season dominance to a high extent from being just slightly before that curve. The earlier eighties had been littered with young goalies with new styles taking the Vezina crown just for a year until someone else just like them took it away from them, then Roy and a little bit later Belfour came and for a couple of years "dominated" the position for the same reason, just until the league filled up with more modern goalies and they to the same extent just could not anymore.
Yes Barrasso stayed elite, as did Vanbiesbrouck, Hextall, Roy and Belfour, but the field just filled up to the extent that they did'nt win any more Vezinas. Pelle Lindbergh probably would have "suffered" the same experience, if not worse.

Still, Roy's playoff record is what it is though: Many, many wins.
There's "being ahead of the curve" and "setting the curve". To fail to give Roy credit for his own success in this regard is really, really silly. He didn't create the butterfly, but he mastered it, and made it standard OP for all future goalies. If anything, this should only add to his legacy, not detract from it.

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06-28-2013, 01:09 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
Hextall was just one example, but I think he's a good one. He came into the league as one of the first to incorporate butterfly elements, which had clear benefits when compared to stand-up.
Ron Hextall.. butterfly??

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Once the rest of the league shifted in style though, whatever initial advantage he had was lost and his technical flaws showed themselves. But he still had some productive seasons towards the end of his career and made it to the finals again in '97. I mostly chose him because he was the goalie I saw the most of growing up that was from that time period.
He was always prone to the occasional soft goal due to his aggressive nature. He did not play a butterfly style, he often challenged shooters.

That was a way of playing goal that did go out of style for certain. Now you just be as big as possible and let the play hit you.


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But there are plenty of examples. Very few goalies of the pre-Roy era were able to adapt to the '90s, regardless of the changes in equipment.
I would guess this has more to do with average career lengths and the influence of Patrick Roy causing a new class of goalies come up already playing the butterfly.

Your example, Hextall, was above replacement value as a goaltender virtually his whole career.

Also as Taco already pointed out: The strictly average but supposedly new fangled and technical adept goalie in the 90s didn't really pass him by at all.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 06-28-2013 at 01:14 PM.
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06-28-2013, 02:17 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
You can argue with me all day and you're not going to get anywhere. I played goal, I was in Junior when the new equipment first started showing up, I lived it first hand.
I KNOW how it changed the fundamentals and lifted previous restrictions of the position.
And THAT is why I always lean on your experience when it come to goaltending discussions

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06-28-2013, 02:39 PM
  #54
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Ron Hextall

Ron Hextall tended to be a bit sloppy with his basic stance, would also vary his stance to play different shooters. Not sure that a bloodied, tired Hextall photo reflects this.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg hextall1.jpg‎ (13.5 KB, 10 views)


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 06-28-2013 at 03:14 PM.
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06-28-2013, 03:16 PM
  #55
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I dont know who we're really talking against here. Some people claiming that eighties standup floppers generally was'nt behind their time as early as 1990.

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06-28-2013, 04:40 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
eighties standup floppers
And so the bashing of '80s goaltenders continues

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06-28-2013, 04:52 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Really not sure why anyone is shocked by this or even mildly surprised.
Roy learned pretty quickly that while regular season accomplishments are all well and good, it‘s the Playoffs that matter
I find this narrative so odd, is there anything to substantiate it (like Roy-quotes)? It just seems like a go-to excuse for people ranking Roy above Hasek ('well duh, he was great in the playoffs!'), and I suspect that wouldn't fly with many other players.

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06-28-2013, 04:56 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
And so the bashing of '80s goaltenders continues
Somebody has allready been touching Ron Hextalls early success. But lets take his predecessor in terms of Vezina lore as another example, Tom Barrasso. Not bad a goalie, but his style made him an immediate star in the league, and while he kept excellent, the field just filled up to put him where he really belonged, just under the top notch. Is this a lie i'm telling you now?


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 06-28-2013 at 05:07 PM.
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06-28-2013, 04:58 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Somebody has allready been touching Ron Hextalls early success. But lets take his predecessor in terms of Vezina lure as another example. Not bad a goalie, but his style made him an immediate star in the league, and while he kept excellent, the field just filled up to put him where he really belonged, just under the top notch. Is this a lie i'm telling you now?
If you're insinuating that Hextall won the Vezina early because his competition sucked and he stopped winning it later because the other goaltenders magically got better in the mid-90s then yeah, you are telling a lie.

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06-28-2013, 04:59 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Cruor View Post
I find this narrative so odd, is there anything to substantiate it (like Roy-quotes)? It just seems like a go-to excuse for people ranking Roy above Hasek ('well duh, he was great in the playoffs!'), and I suspect that wouldn't fly with many other players.
Fedorov fans use it all the time so what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

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06-28-2013, 05:16 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruor View Post
I find this narrative so odd, is there anything to substantiate it (like Roy-quotes)? It just seems like a go-to excuse for people ranking Roy above Hasek ('well duh, he was great in the playoffs!'), and I suspect that wouldn't fly with many other players.
ya. i know guys that block shots with their faces at Friday Night Floor hockey. These guys are pros, I bet they try every game.

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06-28-2013, 05:17 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
If you're insinuating that Hextall won the Vezina early because his competition sucked and he stopped winning it later because the other goaltenders magically got better in the mid-90s then yeah, you are telling a lie.
Yeah i got some problems here with a mobile broadband. The name Tom Barrasso dissappeared while trying to concentrate typing while searching the data. Fixed now, and i feel he is another example of a guy that came in and became the best to a high degree becouse of the rest of the field did not know what hit them, style-wise.

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06-28-2013, 05:18 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Somebody has allready been touching Ron Hextalls early success. But lets take his predecessor in terms of Vezina lore as another example, Tom Barrasso. Not bad a goalie, but his style made him an immediate star in the league, and while he kept excellent, the field just filled up to put him where he really belonged, just under the top notch. Is this a lie i'm telling you now?
Roy is the best. There are two guys on here that you will not convince otherwise. Best, best, BEST. Roy is the best.

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06-28-2013, 05:25 PM
  #64
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Roy/Roenick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruor View Post
I find this narrative so odd, is there anything to substantiate it (like Roy-quotes)? It just seems like a go-to excuse for people ranking Roy above Hasek ('well duh, he was great in the playoffs!'), and I suspect that wouldn't fly with many other players.
Roy's rings in the ears response to Jeremy Roenick. Playing after an appendectomy in the playoffs.

http://articles.philly.com/1994-04-2...ie-patrick-roy

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06-28-2013, 05:27 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
Roy is the best. There are two guys on here that you will not convince otherwise. Best, best, BEST. Roy is the best.
Yeah... just two...

FYI: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...275915&page=17

11 people voted Hasek #1, 10 people voted Roy #1.

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06-28-2013, 06:02 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Roy's rings in the ears response to Jeremy Roenick. Playing after an appendectomy in the playoffs.

http://articles.philly.com/1994-04-2...ie-patrick-roy
I don't have a problem with Roy being a big game-goalie, he was. But I think it becomes problematical when people start to infer he was disinterested or didn't try during the regular season, in order to explain his performance vis-a-vis Hasek. The "short prime argument" is another facet that I think is intended to explain that. Hasek, to be sure, is never granted lee-way in the same way. When it was discussed on this site that he was "old" when he joined the NHL, it was doubted that his pre-NHL performance should count for anything. And likewise that "hold out" by Hasek is brought up by QPQ in any Hasek discussion. Roy's tantrum after being lit up and demanding a trade? Never.

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06-28-2013, 06:09 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
and i feel he is another example of a guy that came in and became the best to a high degree becouse of the rest of the field did not know what hit them, style-wise.
And I feel you're flat-out wrong and I'm getting more than a little irritated by the same tired-out narrative re goaltenders that has been refuted in this very thread.

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06-28-2013, 07:02 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Ron Hextall tended to be a bit sloppy with his basic stance, would also vary his stance to play different shooters.
Technically he was an inconsistent nightmare. No time for Ron Hextall.

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06-28-2013, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Cruor View Post
I don't have a problem with Roy being a big game-goalie, he was. But I think it becomes problematical when people start to infer he was disinterested or didn't try during the regular season, in order to explain his performance vis-a-vis Hasek. The "short prime argument" is another facet that I think is intended to explain that. Hasek, to be sure, is never granted lee-way in the same way. When it was discussed on this site that he was "old" when he joined the NHL, it was doubted that his pre-NHL performance should count for anything. And likewise that "hold out" by Hasek is brought up by QPQ in any Hasek discussion. Roy's tantrum after being lit up and demanding a trade? Never.
Did you read Round 2, Vote 1 of the HOH Top Goaltenders of All-Time project?

Edit: I think calling him "disinterested" in the regular season is a poor choice of words.


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06-28-2013, 08:37 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruor View Post
I don't have a problem with Roy being a big game-goalie, he was. But I think it becomes problematical when people start to infer he was disinterested or didn't try during the regular season, in order to explain his performance vis-a-vis Hasek. The "short prime argument" is another facet that I think is intended to explain that. Hasek, to be sure, is never granted lee-way in the same way. When it was discussed on this site that he was "old" when he joined the NHL, it was doubted that his pre-NHL performance should count for anything. And likewise that "hold out" by Hasek is brought up by QPQ in any Hasek discussion. Roy's tantrum after being lit up and demanding a trade? Never.
No one said he was "disinterested," though that time he tried to score a goal on Mike Richter was probably as close to disinterest as we'll see, so much as it has been said that he played significantly better in the playoffs than he did in many of his Colorado regular seasons.

The objective for the goaltender is always the same: stopping the puck. It's not that he didn't try in the regular season so much as it is that he became more mentally focused than anybody else when he was facing the same shooters over and over again - which if you're trying to win a seven-game series, is a pretty damn good skill. I've posted it before, but when trailing in a playoff series, Patrick Roy delivered an above average game 35 times and a below average game just 10 times (compared to 15 and 13 for Hasek).

So it's not going from disinterested to interested so much as it is going from interested to needs to win more than life itself. Which if you're familiar with Dominik Hasek, you'll recall him ending his seasons on his own peculiar terms in 1997, 2004, and 2006, as well as missing some Conference Finals games in 1999. Patrick Roy's been injured in the playoffs too: 1993, when he disappeared for 20 minutes in Game 5 to force a doctor to inject lidocaine into his shoulder twice (against the doctor's wishes) and 1994, when he put off the removal of his appendix because his team dropped a playoff game without him. It's just a different level of interest sometimes when you compare it to the Hart winner who declares his season over and leaves with a member of the other team when his own doctors are saying he's day-to-day.


And no, Patrick Roy does not have a short prime. Five years is a perfectly lengthy prime. And yes, we do discuss Hasek's pre-NHL career; we just assign it different weight. I think he was an NHL-caliber goaltender (his Canada Cup performance wasn't out of place against Fuhr's and Vanbiesbrouck's), but I don't believe he was a Vezina-caliber goaltender. He struggled in North America too long for me to buy it.

And sure, we discuss Le Trade all the time. Most people by now have recognized that Patrick Roy apologized to the Canadiens the next day, only to be suspended and traded anyway.



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06-28-2013, 08:41 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Somebody has allready been touching Ron Hextalls early success. But lets take his predecessor in terms of Vezina lore as another example, Tom Barrasso. Not bad a goalie, but his style made him an immediate star in the league, and while he kept excellent, the field just filled up to put him where he really belonged, just under the top notch. Is this a lie i'm telling you now?
Most goaltenders' peaks are in their younger years - that happens with just about every NHL netminder.

If that's the case (and it is), then why are you ascribing Hextall's and Barrasso's career paths to something other than normal?

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06-28-2013, 09:35 PM
  #72
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Most goaltenders' peaks are in their younger years - that happens with just about every NHL netminder.
Yes very true, certainly sustained peaks, consistently excellent, though there are all kinds of examples of goalies who afterwards in falling down to earth for often many years do find it in themselves to ascend once more. Terry Sawchuk for example. Plante & Hall albeit not quite as spectacularly as the former.... then there are so many others who peak in Junior or NCAA, Jim Craig a good example of that.

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06-29-2013, 03:50 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Most goaltenders' peaks are in their younger years - that happens with just about every NHL netminder.

If that's the case (and it is), then why are you ascribing Hextall's and Barrasso's career paths to something other than normal?
But it's not something that was an isolated case.

This is the full list of goalies who played ten games in 1984-85 (the year before Roy arrived) and ten games in 1990-91:

Tom Barrasso
Don Beaupre
Grant Fuhr
Glen Hanlon
Brian Hayward
Kelly Hrudey
Reggie Lemelin
Mike Liut
Ron Low
Andy Moog
Pete Peeters
John Vanbiesbrouck
Rick Wamsley
Ken Wregget

That's 14 in total, surviving out of a pool of 50. Compare that to the 31 (out of 58) who played in ten games in both 1993-94 and 1999-00:

Tom Barrasso
Ed Belfour
Craig Billington
Fred Brathwaite
Martin Brodeur
Sean Burke
Bob Essensa
Stephane Fiset
Grant Fuhr
Jeff Hackett
Dominik Hasek
Glenn Healy
Guy Hebert
Arturs Irbe
Curtis Joseph
Trevor Kidd
Kirk McLean
Jamie McLennan
Chris Osgood
Felix Potvin
Damian Rhodes
Mike Richter
Dominic Roussel
Patrick Roy
Mikhail Shtalenkov
Chris Terreri
Jocelyn Thibault
Ron Tugnutt
John Vanbiesbrouck
Mike Vernon
Ken Wregget

There was a mass culling of goalies in the years after Roy joined the league. And it's obvious as to why.

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06-29-2013, 05:11 AM
  #74
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Your Data

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
But it's not something that was an isolated case.

This is the full list of goalies who played ten games in 1984-85 (the year before Roy arrived) and ten games in 1990-91:

Tom Barrasso
Don Beaupre
Grant Fuhr
Glen Hanlon
Brian Hayward
Kelly Hrudey
Reggie Lemelin
Mike Liut
Ron Low
Andy Moog
Pete Peeters
John Vanbiesbrouck
Rick Wamsley
Ken Wregget

That's 14 in total, surviving out of a pool of 50. Compare that to the 31 (out of 58) who played in ten games in both 1993-94 and 1999-00:

Tom Barrasso
Ed Belfour
Craig Billington
Fred Brathwaite
Martin Brodeur
Sean Burke
Bob Essensa
Stephane Fiset
Grant Fuhr
Jeff Hackett
Dominik Hasek
Glenn Healy
Guy Hebert
Arturs Irbe
Curtis Joseph
Trevor Kidd
Kirk McLean
Jamie McLennan
Chris Osgood
Felix Potvin
Damian Rhodes
Mike Richter
Dominic Roussel
Patrick Roy
Mikhail Shtalenkov
Chris Terreri
Jocelyn Thibault
Ron Tugnutt
John Vanbiesbrouck
Mike Vernon
Ken Wregget

There was a mass culling of goalies in the years after Roy joined the league. And it's obvious as to why.
First group features the post WHA/NHL merger in a stable 21 team NHL in an era when players inc. goalies rarely played beyond the age of 35. Second group features an expanding NHL on the way to 30.teams.

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06-29-2013, 05:12 AM
  #75
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Simply put Hasek is the best goalie that I have ever seen play. I really dont even care that much about stats. He passes the eyeball test as well. IMO If Hasek was Canadian we wouldn't even be having this discussion. It's not only about playing in the NHL either. People conveniently forget how dominate Hasek was in International play.

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