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Blues fan Q&A: notes on Reaves, Rattie, Team Direction and the goaltender debate

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06-25-2013, 01:02 PM
  #26
rumrokh
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Originally Posted by BBSuns View Post
Still not sure why everyone is so convinced Allen is ready to take over for Halak, a guy whose cap hit is very manageable and has proven his ability to not only play in the NHL, but excel when healthy. Allen's numbers in the AHL are decent, not great...
"When healthy" is a big deal.

Watch Allen's games in the NHL. Fifteen games in the harshest schedule on record for a rookie goaltender with his talent level is not a determinant sample, but it's significant. He has NHL-ready ability. He has one flaw: he over-commits sometimes and that causes him to swim on second chances and broken plays. Other than that, Allen's 800 minutes were at least as good as any 800 minute sample you can get from Halak in the past couple of years, and clearly better than Halak's same 800 minutes this year.

Halak complained to the media that it was hard to get in practice time with three goalies. Armstrong bowed to that and immediately sent Allen down. Halak got hurt again - a second groin injury, NOT a re-injury of the first. That might be coincidence, but it's not to me. He didn't play during the lockout and he wasn't prepared. That's unprofessional. How many good starting goalies got two different groin injuries this year? You say bad luck, I say it's not. Where are we, then?
Then he threw a fit despite the fact that Elliott was playing terrifically in the playoffs and Halak didn't stretch when Elliott went down. Maybe it's all coincidence. Maybe Elliott told Halak that he was going to fake an injury when he got plowed. I don't know for certain, but it's a strong enough pattern.

Halak is not a bad goaltender and he can be very good. But I think most people are sick of the rollercoaster and have solid reason to think he's less than a professional, team player. If you ALSO see Elliott and Allen as fine alternatives, it's pretty easy to want to unload his contract for a pick or something to escape three-goalie-hell.

Check out the AHL numbers for the eleven goalies who received Vezina votes this year and plenty of other great goalies. Most of the ones who played in the AHL did not have superior numbers to Allen's. When a player is ready, he's ready. If you don't think he's ready, let's hear that argument and we can move from there.
Because ignoring a whole season for Halak and ignoring the fact that he previously benefited from the Blues' defense is not something anyone is prepared to do. Hell, ignore Stewart's 2011-2012 season and he has 33 goals, 26 assists, 59 points in 74 games in a Blues sweater and nobody has any interest in trading him, they're just a little disappointed in his playoff production this year. But that's not reality.


Last edited by rumrokh: 06-25-2013 at 01:07 PM. Reason: grammar
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06-25-2013, 05:51 PM
  #27
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Finally got the time to sit down and read the article. Thank you for responding to my question. The article as a whole was a great read.

As for the goaltending situation, I'm still undecided. I would like to stand pat and allow Halak and Elliott to split time in the cage with Allen in the AHL. If a team is willing to give up something of value for one of the three(unlikely), then I'd trade any of the three quite honestly. They all have their strengths and weaknesses.

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06-25-2013, 06:15 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by MattyMo35 View Post
Finally got the time to sit down and read the article. Thank you for responding to my question. The article as a whole was a great read.

As for the goaltending situation, I'm still undecided. I would like to stand pat and allow Halak and Elliott to split time in the cage with Allen in the AHL. If a team is willing to give up something of value for one of the three(unlikely), then I'd trade any of the three quite honestly. They all have their strengths and weaknesses.
Sure thing and I hope it was at least in the realm of what you were looking for in a response! The goalie debate is probably the hottest topic amongst blues fans right now and there really is no clear answer to what they should do, and there is never any answer as to what they WILL do. Just looking at the situation in a social exchange theory aspect, i dont believe the worth (which equals rewards-costs) of alternatives would be greater than the worth of Halak and Elliott as a tandem.

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06-25-2013, 06:18 PM
  #29
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I could still see us doing a Halak+Russell/Cole+whatever pick if needed for Miller, then dump Elliott and going with Miller/Allen. That tandem would cost the same and would be better.

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06-25-2013, 06:29 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
I could still see us doing a Halak+Russell/Cole+whatever pick if needed for Miller, then dump Elliott and going with Miller/Allen. That tandem would cost the same and would be better.
I feel like acquiring Miller for that price isn't a big enough upgrade and those pieces would be better suited (cole/russell) in trading for a true 1C

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06-25-2013, 06:34 PM
  #31
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I feel like acquiring Miller for that price isn't a big enough upgrade and those pieces would be better suited (cole/russell) in trading for a true 1C
To me Cole and Russell are only valuable to certain teams, Buffalo happens to be one of them. For some of the realistic center trade targets, Pavelski would take our wingers, Plekanec would take Stewart, Stastny would be Perron+Cole, but I don't see him being a realistic target.

I'd do Halak+Cole/Russell for Miller, which was a rumor and then I'd do Perron/Stewart+pick prospect for Plekanec/Pavelski.

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06-25-2013, 06:44 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
To me Cole and Russell are only valuable to certain teams, Buffalo happens to be one of them. For some of the realistic center trade targets, Pavelski would take our wingers, Plekanec would take Stewart, Stastny would be Perron+Cole, but I don't see him being a realistic target.

I'd do Halak+Cole/Russell for Miller, which was a rumor and then I'd do Perron/Stewart+pick prospect for Plekanec/Pavelski.
Perron+Cole for Stastny would be a steal..but the avs need defense so I feel like Cole, a prospect, and a 1st/2nd depending on the prospect would suffice.

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06-25-2013, 06:48 PM
  #33
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Perron+Cole for Stastny would be a steal..but the avs need defense so I feel like Cole, a prospect, and a 1st/2nd depending on the prospect would suffice.
Avs fans agreed to that deal, value wise it works, but again trades within the division are just extremely rare.

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06-25-2013, 06:56 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
Avs fans agreed to that deal, value wise it works, but again trades within the division are just extremely rare.
Avs fans and Avs management are two very different things haha..and I don't really buy into the trading within division problem with this new alignment format: 6 teams to not trade with just because they are in your division doesnt make much sense. if a trade helps your team improve you make the deal

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06-25-2013, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
To me Cole and Russell are only valuable to certain teams, Buffalo happens to be one of them. For some of the realistic center trade targets, Pavelski would take our wingers, Plekanec would take Stewart, Stastny would be Perron+Cole, but I don't see him being a realistic target.

I'd do Halak+Cole/Russell for Miller, which was a rumor and then I'd do Perron/Stewart+pick prospect for Plekanec/Pavelski.
I´d rather keep both Perron and Stewart and just sign Pavelski as a free agent in 2014. He´s a perfect fit. So, I wouldn´t mind outbidding a few teams for him.

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06-25-2013, 10:02 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
I could still see us doing a Halak+Russell/Cole+whatever pick if needed for Miller, then dump Elliott and going with Miller/Allen. That tandem would cost the same and would be better.
Spot on.

Blues will never win the Cup with the Halak/Elliott tandum, period. Allen would be more then a adequate backup to Miller.

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06-25-2013, 10:07 PM
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Spot on.

Blues will never win the Cup with the Halak/Elliott tandum, period. Allen would be more then a adequate backup to Miller.
Crawford just won a Cup, you don't need a stud to win a Cup.

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06-25-2013, 10:39 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by BleedinBlueSince1972 View Post
Spot on.

Blues will never win the Cup with the Halak/Elliott tandum, period. Allen would be more then a adequate backup to Miller.
What evidence do you have? What makes you think Miller could bring a cup to St. Louis? He hasn't won a thing

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06-26-2013, 12:06 AM
  #39
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What evidence do you have? What makes you think Miller could bring a cup to St. Louis? He hasn't won a thing
I'm in no way arguing that the Blues should acquire Miller or that he would "bring a Cup to St. Louis," but c'mon, where have you been? Silver medal, Olympic MVP, Vezina, first team All Star, and has been very good in the playoffs in the NHL.

This has officially moved beyond a discussion and into talking into the air.

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06-26-2013, 12:23 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by rumrokh View Post
I'm in no way arguing that the Blues should acquire Miller or that he would "bring a Cup to St. Louis," but c'mon, where have you been? Silver medal, Olympic MVP, Vezina, first team All Star, and has been very good in the playoffs in the NHL.

This has officially moved beyond a discussion and into talking into the air.
So he's won nothing...playing well in the olympics has literally no bearing on NHL play. Was he good then? Sure, but he's looked like a shell of his former self. To move players to acquire him when it would cost more than just your current goaltender would be pointless, especially considering he's got 1 year left on his contract. Signing him after this season is a different story when he can be had without sacrificing other players in the organization.

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06-26-2013, 12:44 AM
  #41
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So he's won nothing...playing well in the olympics has literally no bearing on NHL play. Was he good then? Sure, but he's looked like a shell of his former self. To move players to acquire him when it would cost more than just your current goaltender would be pointless, especially considering he's got 1 year left on his contract. Signing him after this season is a different story when he can be had without sacrificing other players in the organization.
So just because he hasn't won a cup yet means we shouldn't try to get him? Okay.

He doesn't exactly play on the greatest team in the league.

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06-26-2013, 12:53 AM
  #42
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So just because he hasn't won a cup yet means we shouldn't try to get him? Okay.

He doesn't exactly play on the greatest team in the league.
No. If you notice, I said if they were to try and get him it would be smarter to wait out this year so they can have him without sacrificing players in a trade since he only has a year remaining in his contract. My point about the cup argument is that someone else brought up that Halak/Elliott wouldn't bring a cup to the blues and they should get Miller>but has Miller proven he can win a cup? No, he has not. Were the teams in front of him that great? Some were, especially the team that had Briere and Drury carrying it, and some were not aka the last couple years. But the fact remains his play has declined. He lost his job to Enroth for crying out loud. Both Halak and Elliott have one year left on their contract>why do people want to sacrifice other players that can be used towards a greater area of need, a #1C which is obv on the mind of blues management since both Backes and Berglund will now be given a chance on the wings, for Miller who can be gotten in only a year? This tandem of Halak/Elliott is 2 years removed from winning the Jennings and are both 28, arguably in the prime of their career.


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06-26-2013, 01:20 AM
  #43
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I'm not sure why everyone thinks we can just wait a year and then sign everyone in the summer of 2014. I'm not talking about you specifically, but I've heard that with Stastny, Miller, Pavelski, Thornton, etc. Doesn't work like that. Not all those guys will actually hit the market. What if other teams acquire them and then extend them? How do you know we'll even be able to outbid teams for them next offseason? You have to actually think of these options. It's not a big deal trading for a player with a year left on his contract. A team like the Blues is in win now mode, we can't just keep saying "wait until next summer". 2014 Free Agency I can guarantee you is not even in Doug Armstrong's mind right now.

Also your argument is just going too far to the extreme. Miller is a much better goalie than both Halak and Elliott, and he has accomplished more, has he not? Whether he's won a cup or not is pretty irrelevant. I'm not too concerned with his season this year...Buffalo sucks. And Enroth isn't a scrub or anything....

I haven't seen anyone propose giving up valuable skaters for Miller. It's always been Halak/Russell or something along those lines. That does NOT keep us from going after a center whatsoever.

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06-26-2013, 01:41 AM
  #44
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I'm not sure why everyone thinks we can just wait a year and then sign everyone in the summer of 2014. I'm not talking about you specifically, but I've heard that with Stastny, Miller, Pavelski, Thornton, etc. Doesn't work like that. Not all those guys will actually hit the market. What if other teams acquire them and then extend them? How do you know we'll even be able to outbid teams for them next offseason? You have to actually think of these options. It's not a big deal trading for a player with a year left on his contract. A team like the Blues is in win now mode, we can't just keep saying "wait until next summer". 2014 Free Agency I can guarantee you is not even in Doug Armstrong's mind right now.

Also your argument is just going too far to the extreme. Miller is a much better goalie than both Halak and Elliott, and he has accomplished more, has he not? Whether he's won a cup or not is pretty irrelevant. I'm not too concerned with his season this year...Buffalo sucks. And Enroth isn't a scrub or anything....

I haven't seen anyone propose giving up valuable skaters for Miller. It's always been Halak/Russell or something along those lines. That does NOT keep us from going after a center whatsoever.
Why would the Sabres trade away Miller to take on Halaks contract to be a backup when he had an issue with it here in St. Louis? Just to acquire Russell or a pick? There are other teams who can offer up so much more than that. And its not just about whether hes won a cup or not, he really hasn't performed in the playoffs like people would expect a goalie of Miller's caliber to perform. Sure, Enroth is no scrub but the fact that the Sabres believe he's more capable of being the starter on a bad team should be proof enough that Miller is on the decline while Halak and Elliott are hitting their primes. The Blues aren't looking to trade one of their goalies for an upgrade in net when it will cost other pieces to add to the trade in order for them to get said upgrade>they are, like ive said, much better suited to use one of their goalies in trade to upgrade a different area of need like C or a prime scorer from the wings if they so choose to deal a goalie. But even so, Halak and Elliotts value is so over-estimated by Blues fans as Rutherford would say.


Last edited by BBSuns: 06-26-2013 at 01:42 AM. Reason: Ranting error
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06-26-2013, 04:00 AM
  #45
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So he's won nothing...playing well in the olympics has literally no bearing on NHL play. Was he good then? Sure, but he's looked like a shell of his former self.
This describes Halak pretty well, too.

I'm not saying Halak or Miller are superior to one another or that the Blues should go after Miller, but you keep championing Halak, downplaying Allen's development, and so forth with minimal reasoning. Why use Halak's career stats and ignore this past year, but not do the same for Miller? I'd also like to hear you explain Allen's apparently "decent" AHL stats as compared to the AHL stats of current elite NHL goalies.

Again, it seems like we've reached a point at which you're just repeating your conclusion and offering very little in the way of compelling reasoning. You may ultimately be right, but I couldn't really know.

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06-26-2013, 07:02 AM
  #46
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Why would the Sabres trade away Miller to take on Halaks contract to be a backup when he had an issue with it here in St. Louis? Just to acquire Russell or a pick? There are other teams who can offer up so much more than that. And its not just about whether hes won a cup or not, he really hasn't performed in the playoffs like people would expect a goalie of Miller's caliber to perform. Sure, Enroth is no scrub but the fact that the Sabres believe he's more capable of being the starter on a bad team should be proof enough that Miller is on the decline while Halak and Elliott are hitting their primes. The Blues aren't looking to trade one of their goalies for an upgrade in net when it will cost other pieces to add to the trade in order for them to get said upgrade>they are, like ive said, much better suited to use one of their goalies in trade to upgrade a different area of need like C or a prime scorer from the wings if they so choose to deal a goalie. But even so, Halak and Elliotts value is so over-estimated by Blues fans as Rutherford would say.
Miller isn't going to cost anymore than Bouwmeester did, so if we put Cole in the deal or a decent pick, we'd have one of the better offers. His play hasn't been spectacular, only has 1 year left, and has a high cap hit. I'd rather have Miller/Allen than Halak/Elliott and the cost of the 2 would be about the same.

Halak and Elliott would both pretty much be useless in a trade for a center. As for Cole, we have plenty of other pieces we can use to get a center, so that isn't a big deal either, both deals can go down.

Since you like to use JR's word, he was the one who started the Miller talk for Blues fans, just sayin.

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06-26-2013, 10:38 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
Miller isn't going to cost anymore than Bouwmeester did, so if we put Cole in the deal or a decent pick, we'd have one of the better offers. His play hasn't been spectacular, only has 1 year left, and has a high cap hit. I'd rather have Miller/Allen than Halak/Elliott and the cost of the 2 would be about the same.

Halak and Elliott would both pretty much be useless in a trade for a center. As for Cole, we have plenty of other pieces we can use to get a center, so that isn't a big deal either, both deals can go down.

Since you like to use JR's word, he was the one who started the Miller talk for Blues fans, just sayin.
The Blues acquired Bouwmeester at the deadline.. acquiring a goalie in the offseason after the market has already been set by Bernier shows it will take more than what the Blues offered for Jbouw. And I know he was the one who started it, but that too was around the deadline when Halak was injured and they were in win now mode. Couldn't get a deal done then when the Sabres were out of it and looking to sell. why would the price go down during the offseason? It doesnt, especially after the Bernier deal. Also, I don't see how trading for Miller would get the Blues a decent return on either Halak or Elliott>would put them a t huge disadvantage in trade talks with other teams as it would basically be saying: "please, take on of them off our hands". In the other scenario, if Halak or Elliott were traded first and then the Blues sought after Miller, it would cost more as the Sabres would realize they are dealing from a position of strength to a team looking to add a goalie they'd really need.

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06-26-2013, 10:44 AM
  #48
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Miller's contract is just for next season and there is a surplus of available goalies, he does not have much trade value.

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06-26-2013, 10:52 AM
  #49
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This describes Halak pretty well, too.

I'm not saying Halak or Miller are superior to one another or that the Blues should go after Miller, but you keep championing Halak, downplaying Allen's development, and so forth with minimal reasoning. Why use Halak's career stats and ignore this past year, but not do the same for Miller? I'd also like to hear you explain Allen's apparently "decent" AHL stats as compared to the AHL stats of current elite NHL goalies.

Again, it seems like we've reached a point at which you're just repeating your conclusion and offering very little in the way of compelling reasoning. You may ultimately be right, but I couldn't really know.
Im not downplaying Allen's development. He can use another year in the AHL while both Blues goalies are under contract for 1 more year. Its better for him to be playing regularly at the AHL level than be a backup sitting behind Halak or Ellliott or Miller or whoever he'd be a backup to and not get consistent playing time.

In regards to Allen, its not about in comparison with other elite goalies in the NHL but rather comparing him within his league: http://theahl.com/stats/statdisplay....id=-1&confId=0

ranked 38th among AHL goalies. does he have good skill? yes, and im not denying that but to say he is ready to take the next step towards being a full time NHL goalie after only playing in 15 games is erroneous. Hes also yet to play a full season in the AHL (not in total amount of games in his career but from year to year, his max has been a little more than half (61% and that was 2 years ago)) Give him another year in the AHL to develop more while the team has 2 goalies, who are proven 1A/1B goalies with only 1 year left on their contracts. There is no reason to rush him in his development.

Also, in regards to the Miller argument, he is a better all around goalie than Halak but I don't believe his game is so much better that the Blues should sacrifice pieces that could be used in other areas of need (which you are right, I have repeated several times because it seems to go uncomprehended)

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06-26-2013, 10:58 AM
  #50
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Miller offers consistency and durability in net, something that Halak and Elliott lack.

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