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De-Smurfing our Squad

View Poll Results: Who would you put on the block this summer.
Plekanec 5 2.51%
Gallagher 2 1.01%
Gionta 65 32.66%
Desharnais 127 63.82%
Voters: 199. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-26-2013, 08:21 PM
  #126
Watsatheo
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Agreed, no one's trying to do that but size isn't what this should be about.

I don't care if our team has guys 5'7 or 5'11. If it's St Louis, Fleury in his prime, Kane, Crosby, Zetterberg and Datsyuk I'll take it.

It's an illusion, who doesn't want big, fast, strong, physical and talented guys? It's perfect.

At end of the day though, it's about getting the best team. We should remove our small players or any player if there is an upgrade. That's the idea. Hell, I'd trade a big guy like bourque for a smurf like Kane. I'd even go lower because we'd end up better. That should be the idea, not selecting a group of individuals based on height.
Difference between 6'3'' and 5'11'' is the same as 5'11'' and 5'7''. Not sure it's fair to lump these two in the same size category.

When looking at individual players without context then you can argue how it may be favourable to keep a Gionta or DD. However, when considering the Habs overall makeup - we have too many of the same thing. This is more significant when the players are almost dime/dozen types.

I rather have a big gritty 30 point forward bringing a new element to the Habs lineup like a Bickell/Prust/etc than a DD who brings nothing the Habs don't already have.

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06-26-2013, 08:32 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Difference between 6'3'' and 5'11'' is the same as 5'11'' and 5'7''. Not sure it's fair to lump these two in the same size category.

When looking at individual players without context then you can argue how it may be favourable to keep a Gionta or DD. However, when considering the Habs overall makeup - we have too many of the same thing. This is more significant when the players are almost dime/dozen types.

I rather have a big gritty 30 point forward bringing a new element to the Habs lineup like a Bickell/Prust/etc than a DD who brings nothing the Habs don't already have.
But I never treated as an individual. Any of the players I listed would make the team better. The question is who they replace right? If they replace DD, Gionta or whoever, sure. The idea is they can be good and you can even build around them.

There's other smaller players who may be good as individuals or in specific contexts but not on our team, that's true too. Samsonov was pretty good but was a bust for us. It doesn't always work but generally speaking, talent and skill wins games.

Physicality, toughness and other elements can be excellent compliments to a skilled line-up. Habs are missing that for sure but the idea is not to point at a certain group based on height in order to add toughness. Size=/=physicality. Some players are big but softer than a silk pillow and then there's guys like Gallagher.

DD is one of those guys but Plekanec, Gionta, Gallagher? Why are we even talking about them? Because they are short?

Gionta should go because he's often injured these days and on the downswing, but because he's 5'7. Who cares.

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06-26-2013, 09:44 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Lozela View Post
All of them except Gallagher.

It is time for us to part ways with Plekanec.
You state that as though it were fact without providing a rational argument. It'd been hashed over many times and the consensus seems to indicate that Plekanec is still needed. But of course your wisdom exceeds that of everyone else.

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06-26-2013, 09:49 PM
  #129
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You state that as though it were fact without providing a rational argument. It'd been hashed over many times and the consensus seems to indicate that Plekanec is still needed. But of course your wisdom exceeds that of everyone else.
What's best is trading Plekanec AND DD in hopes of icing Galchenyuk-Eller-White and who knows who else. I understand removing DD for example but both? At same time?wow.

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06-26-2013, 09:55 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
You state that as though it were fact without providing a rational argument. It'd been hashed over many times and the consensus seems to indicate that Plekanec is still needed. But of course your wisdom exceeds that of everyone else.
Teufel, I agree. But in order for this team to get a valuable asset, you need to trade another one. And while Plekanec is very effective, you have to wonder if he will be part of the big picture when the Habs get to be real contenders in 2-3 years. I'm not sure. The other smurfs aren't worth squat on the trading scene.

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06-26-2013, 10:05 PM
  #131
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It is conceivable fir the Habs to contend next year.

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06-26-2013, 10:25 PM
  #132
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if the habs get a high quality year outta price i think they can too.

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06-26-2013, 10:58 PM
  #133
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Anyways, not a huge deal but I'd rather play DD on the wing and let Galchenyuk develop at the center position.
+1000 to that. And don't try it for just 5-10 games, give it some time. DD is a smart guy and I'm sure he could adapt and even flourish as a winger. The other centers can shoot anyway.

Then you have Pleck-Eller/Chuckie down the middle. And it could become Chuckie-Eller/Pleck as time goes by. Not too shabby. Especially when they end up replacing Gionta by a bigger guy* in 1 year.

The Habs can contend with DD and Gally in the top 9.


*Assuming the Sabres give Nathan Gerbe a nice contract with a NTC

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06-26-2013, 11:00 PM
  #134
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I want the Habs to compete next season, but a part of me wants them to tank so we have a shot at McDavid.

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06-26-2013, 11:14 PM
  #135
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I want the Habs to compete next season, but a part of me wants them to tank so we have a shot at McDavid.
obviously you are kidding.

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06-26-2013, 11:17 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
Teufel, I agree. But in order for this team to get a valuable asset, you need to trade another one. And while Plekanec is very effective, you have to wonder if he will be part of the big picture when the Habs get to be real contenders in 2-3 years. I'm not sure. The other smurfs aren't worth squat on the trading scene.
it's not like Plekanec is 40 or anything you know...

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06-26-2013, 11:18 PM
  #137
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Well the options are:

1) DD or Plekanec
2) Gionta or Gallagher

One from each is acceptable and no way we keep DD over Pleks or Gionta over Gallagher. I'd rather keep the two wingers then re-sign Gionta at a cheap price when his contract is up, so if I had to trade one it would be DD

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06-26-2013, 11:45 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by MDN View Post
I want the Habs to compete next season, but a part of me wants them to tank so we have a shot at McDavid.
Hey, there's always a chance. If they play Gorges like a number 1 all year, next season, we may get our wish.

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06-27-2013, 12:04 AM
  #139
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obviously you are kidding.
Sadly, I wish I was :s

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06-27-2013, 12:58 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by MDN View Post
I want the Habs to compete next season, but a part of me wants them to tank so we have a shot at McDavid.
Never go full ret... McDavid will be drafted in 2015 btw.

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06-27-2013, 02:56 AM
  #141
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Whoever picked Gallagher is either a troll or it was done by accident. No sane person would pick him. Gionta got my vote. Only because i knew DD would already have the most votes

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06-27-2013, 08:55 AM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
Teufel, I agree. But in order for this team to get a valuable asset, you need to trade another one. And while Plekanec is very effective, you have to wonder if he will be part of the big picture when the Habs get to be real contenders in 2-3 years. I'm not sure. The other smurfs aren't worth squat on the trading scene.
The problem with trading Plekanec away is the hole we create... Are we really going to have DD as out 1C?... And if you expect Pleck to bring in a true 1C, well forget it, he's not that valuable... How many true number one centers in the league would you trade for Plekanec? I wouldn't trade the Penguins number TWO center for him.

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06-27-2013, 09:52 AM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Didn't know you were in the "What have you done for me lately" crew.

For the record, I'm all for trading DD... As long as he doesn't have a deflated value at that very moment where the trade is made. There are good reasons to believe his current value is extremely low, due to having his worst season since joining the league.
I agree about trading players when their value is high, but what makes you think his value is extremely low? He's played parts of 1 season, plus another season, and a half-season, while putting up 111 PTS in 178 GP which is just over a 50 pts/82-game pace. If that isn't #2 C quality scoring, i don't wanna know what is.

Talking about value from last year, he had 28 PTS in 48 GP, which is a pace of about 48 PTS per 82-game pace. Yes, it was much less than 2011-12, but it was also half a season. Who knows how hot he could have gotten if he was given more time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
Anyway, at some point, when Galchenyuk and Eller are ready, a wise move could be to convert DD to wing.

Both Galchenyuk and Eller can score and Pleckaneck's shot is also underrated. So DD could be the playmaker.

I don't mind having two small but skilled players (i.e. DD and Gally) in the top 9. The Conn Smyth has just been awarded to 180 lbs. Patrick Kane. Not making comparisons, but size is clearly not a prerequisite for playoff performance.
I think you just contradicted yourself in the same post. You say moving DD to wing, but the wing isn't where playmakers normally play; they play at the centre position. Pleks is a playmaker that can score, same thing with Eller, and same thing with DD. You move guys to the wing that can score and are also an adequate size to play along the boards/be physical AND/OR are fast enough up the wings to get around defenseman and shoot pucks on net/crash the net (a la Erik Cole). Moving DD to the wing, IMO, would be a bigger mistake than making Galchenyuk the #2 C out of the gate next season.

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Originally Posted by Crimson Skorpion View Post
Gionta - He has one year left and a NTC.
Plekanec - Who do you replace him with because you'll NEED to have someone that can log the minutes he does, play the PP and PK like he does and be as effective.
Gallagher - His name on this list is ridiculous.

Desharnais is the right answer. Out of all three (I'm not counting Gallagher), he has the worst contract and is the most ineffective. It's a no brainer, really.
MB's going to trade the most recent guy he has signed to some serious money (basically, not including Drewiske or anyone else who was re-signed (Cube?))? I don't think so. The most logical answer actually is to trade Gionta this summer to the Devils. They will be missing a top 9 RW presence and can help provide leadership for the Devils plus would get to play with his brother. Now that is a no-brainer. I highly doubt he wouldn't move his NTC to go play with NJD and his brother, even during the summer and especially at the deadline (if NJD are in contention for POs).

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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
why would Plekanec need to improve ? lol
LOL I have no clue why that OP said that. Plekanec IS our #1 C. He plays #1 PK minutes and #1 PP minutes along with #1 ES minutes. But yet he needs to improve? Try being more specific like "he needs to improve his production on offense".

Even that statement in itself is funny because Pleks plays with smurf-injury-prone Gionta and inconsistent-concussion Bourque. The last true scorer Pleks played with was smurfy-Cammalleri and even he was so inconsistent.

I added the smurf/nicknames just for dramatic effect. The fact of this post was that Pleks does not need to improve. He just needs better players to play with (yes i'm looking at you MB).

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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
You all claim to want DD gonenow, but i remember twelve months ago many of you thought that he had elite vision. You said Cole had a career season, and that DD was 14th among centers in points. It was thought he was better offensively than Plekanec.

Hypocrites.
Seriously. I don't think DD should be leaving anytime soon, but he should be leaving eventually. The only reason why I would want him gone personally is that he is one of the couple smurfs on our team that doesn't really fit I think. However, trading him for like a Travis Moen type player would be just bad. He's a #2 C on lots of teams, smurfy or not. You don't give him away for nothing.

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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
It is conceivable fir the Habs to contend next year.
Umm can you be more specific? Playoff contend? Yes. SC contend? Absolutely not.

It relies mainly on Price and how well our entire team plays + the amount of injuries we have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haburger View Post
if the habs get a high quality year outta price i think they can too.
That's a big if, the last high quality year we got out of Price, we lost to the eventually SC Champs in the 1st round, in Game 7, in OT. A great achievement, but it doesn't make us contenders (SC).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MDN View Post
I want the Habs to compete next season, but a part of me wants them to tank so we have a shot at McDavid.
Like it was said before, McDavid is going in 2015.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
it's not like Plekanec is 40 or anything you know...
Seriously. It's like at the end of 2014-15 season when his contract is up he'll be totally useless...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZARTONK View Post
The problem with trading Plekanec away is the hole we create... Are we really going to have DD as out 1C?... And if you expect Pleck to bring in a true 1C, well forget it, he's not that valuable... How many true number one centers in the league would you trade for Plekanec? I wouldn't trade the Penguins number TWO center for him.
Wait I'm confused with what you mean. Do you mean if you were PIT you wouldn't trade for Pleks or if you were MTL you wouldn't trade for Malkin?

Obviously in the former, I would ask for more than Pleks and have an elite #2 C that plays #1 PK minutes and #2 PP minutes plus whoever else comes back in the deal for Pleks.

In the latter, are you nuts? I would take Malkin for Pleks in a heartbeat.

But I think you were talking the former and not the latter.

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06-27-2013, 10:03 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
I agree about trading players when their value is high, but what makes you think his value is extremely low? He's played parts of 1 season, plus another season, and a half-season, while putting up 111 PTS in 178 GP which is just over a 50 pts/82-game pace. If that isn't #2 C quality scoring, i don't wanna know what is.

Talking about value from last year, he had 28 PTS in 48 GP, which is a pace of about 48 PTS per 82-game pace. Yes, it was much less than 2011-12, but it was also half a season. Who knows how hot he could have gotten if he was given more time.



I think you just contradicted yourself in the same post. You say moving DD to wing, but the wing isn't where playmakers normally play; they play at the centre position. Pleks is a playmaker that can score, same thing with Eller, and same thing with DD. You move guys to the wing that can score and are also an adequate size to play along the boards/be physical AND/OR are fast enough up the wings to get around defenseman and shoot pucks on net/crash the net (a la Erik Cole). Moving DD to the wing, IMO, would be a bigger mistake than making Galchenyuk the #2 C out of the gate next season.



MB's going to trade the most recent guy he has signed to some serious money (basically, not including Drewiske or anyone else who was re-signed (Cube?))? I don't think so. The most logical answer actually is to trade Gionta this summer to the Devils. They will be missing a top 9 RW presence and can help provide leadership for the Devils plus would get to play with his brother. Now that is a no-brainer. I highly doubt he wouldn't move his NTC to go play with NJD and his brother, even during the summer and especially at the deadline (if NJD are in contention for POs).



LOL I have no clue why that OP said that. Plekanec IS our #1 C. He plays #1 PK minutes and #1 PP minutes along with #1 ES minutes. But yet he needs to improve? Try being more specific like "he needs to improve his production on offense".

Even that statement in itself is funny because Pleks plays with smurf-injury-prone Gionta and inconsistent-concussion Bourque. The last true scorer Pleks played with was smurfy-Cammalleri and even he was so inconsistent.

I added the smurf/nicknames just for dramatic effect. The fact of this post was that Pleks does not need to improve. He just needs better players to play with (yes i'm looking at you MB).



Seriously. I don't think DD should be leaving anytime soon, but he should be leaving eventually. The only reason why I would want him gone personally is that he is one of the couple smurfs on our team that doesn't really fit I think. However, trading him for like a Travis Moen type player would be just bad. He's a #2 C on lots of teams, smurfy or not. You don't give him away for nothing.



Umm can you be more specific? Playoff contend? Yes. SC contend? Absolutely not.

It relies mainly on Price and how well our entire team plays + the amount of injuries we have.



That's a big if, the last high quality year we got out of Price, we lost to the eventually SC Champs in the 1st round, in Game 7, in OT. A great achievement, but it doesn't make us contenders (SC).



Like it was said before, McDavid is going in 2015.



Seriously. It's like at the end of 2014-15 season when his contract is up he'll be totally useless...



Wait I'm confused with what you mean. Do you mean if you were PIT you wouldn't trade for Pleks or if you were MTL you wouldn't trade for Malkin?

Obviously in the former, I would ask for more than Pleks and have an elite #2 C that plays #1 PK minutes and #2 PP minutes plus whoever else comes back in the deal for Pleks.

In the latter, are you nuts? I would take Malkin for Pleks in a heartbeat.

But I think you were talking the former and not the latter.
It was indeed the former, however, I admit, my sentence structure could have been better.

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06-27-2013, 10:07 AM
  #145
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Now that Lecav is an FA

Sign Lecav, trade Pleks for Stewart +

Chuckie Vinny Gally
Patches DD Stewart
Bourque Eller Gio (The new shutdown two way line)
Moen White Prust

Boom!!! Still smurfy on D though but **** it!

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06-27-2013, 10:30 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
Now that Lecav is an FA

Sign Lecav, trade Pleks for Stewart +

Chuckie Vinny Gally
Patches DD Stewart
Bourque Eller Gio (The new shutdown two way line)
Moen White Prust

Boom!!! Still smurfy on D though but **** it!
****ing right,

Trade DD too give Bickell his 3.5M!

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06-27-2013, 11:08 AM
  #147
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the chicago blackhawks dont hit and dont fight .at all.they just took out the supposed big bad bruins by playing SMART hockey.the hawks now have 2 cups in the last few years and are the best team in the cap era as a result.if this doesnt put to rest the myth that teams need to be "big" or "tough" to contend,,,,,,nothing will.
BS.

Toews sat in front of the net and took a tremendous amount of punishment starting in game 4. Up until then it was looking like the B's were going to walk away with this series. Then Bickell went directly after Chara on EVERY play he could. The defense honed in on him and that's how they won the series.

You don't have to be the toughest team to win but you can't be the weakest. You DO have to have size and toughness in your lineup and the Blackhawks are exhibit A of what happens when you actually start to use it.

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06-27-2013, 11:32 AM
  #148
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Trade DD, get VL. Simple. Not because of size, more because one is a better player...

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06-27-2013, 12:45 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Trade DD, get VL. Simple. Not because of size, more because one is a better player...

Ooh la la so Lecavalier's buyout is official! For what I'll just call Montréal's unique set of socio-political factors, the Habs getting Vinnie as a FA might be just what management needs in order to move DD. Will this happen?


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06-27-2013, 12:55 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Trade DD, get VL. Simple. Not because of size, more because one is a better player...
It's not that simple. What if he won't come here or wants 6 years and 36 mil? If you can get him for DD's contract it's a no brainmer, but you can't, so it's not.

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