HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Most offensively proficient forwards since the Lockout!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-27-2013, 11:05 PM
  #26
LolClarkson*
Canucks 4 the cup
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Embrace the hate
Posts: 8,908
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by praisealfie11 View Post
Further proof of how underrated Jason Spezza is.
For every player that is underrated there is an equally over rated player taking their spot.

I agree with your assessment that Spezza is top 3 in the most under rated in the game.

LolClarkson* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2013, 11:15 PM
  #27
LolClarkson*
Canucks 4 the cup
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Embrace the hate
Posts: 8,908
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
In terms of pure offensive effectiveness, yes.

The difference is that the Detroit duo puts up their offensive numbers while also doing the same job that the likes of Kesler and Maholtra of the past have for Vancouver.

AV has been one of the more opportunistic coaches in terms of using the Sedin's offensively. That's why they've had such high offensive zone starts the past couple years and why you see them go on the ice after a 4th line gets caught on an icing.

Which is exactly why Datsyuk and Zetterberg > Sedin's and exactly why it's a popular belief not only on HFBoards but pretty much everywhere outside of Vancouver.
You can keep adding paragraphs but its just the hate effect. The Sedins with Wings uni's on and Babcock coaching them would be considered the best players in the world. They would probably get more points in Detroit.

And again, the Sedins are not in any way shape or form, defensive liabilities.

LolClarkson* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-28-2013, 12:32 AM
  #28
silkyjohnson50*
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 9,183
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
You can keep adding paragraphs but its just the hate effect. The Sedins with Wings uni's on and Babcock coaching them would be considered the best players in the world. They would probably get more points in Detroit.

And again, the Sedins are not in any way shape or form, defensive liabilities.
Yeah that's it. People just hate twins. You win. Sedin's are best players in world.

silkyjohnson50* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-28-2013, 12:53 AM
  #29
blankall
Registered User
 
blankall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,393
vCash: 500
Selanne is impressive. That is all.

blankall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-28-2013, 03:13 AM
  #30
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
You can keep adding paragraphs but its just the hate effect. The Sedins with Wings uni's on and Babcock coaching them would be considered the best players in the world. They would probably get more points in Detroit.

And again, the Sedins are not in any way shape or form, defensive liabilities.
There's a difference between being a defensively capable player who gets to play offense 80% of his time, and an offensively gifted player who spends 50% of his time playing defense and focuses on defense as the first priority.

The Sedins would have far fewer points if they tried to play like Dats/Z, not more points. And if you think a supporting cast of Franzen, Nyquist, Abdelkader, Kronwall, Ericsson, Kindl, Smith gets them more points than one with Kesler, Booth, Burrows, Hamhuis, Edler, Bieksa, Garrison... you're nuts.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-28-2013, 03:22 AM
  #31
bambamcam4ever
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,969
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
Yeah that's it. People just hate twins. You win. Sedin's are best players in world.
One of the greatest strawmen I have ever seen.

bambamcam4ever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-28-2013, 03:24 AM
  #32
bambamcam4ever
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,969
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
There's a difference between being a defensively capable player who gets to play offense 80% of his time, and an offensively gifted player who spends 50% of his time playing defense and focuses on defense as the first priority.

The Sedins would have far fewer points if they tried to play like Dats/Z, not more points. And if you think a supporting cast of Franzen, Nyquist, Abdelkader, Kronwall, Ericsson, Kindl, Smith gets them more points than one with Kesler, Booth, Burrows, Hamhuis, Edler, Bieksa, Garrison... you're nuts.
Offense and defense are intertwined. Playing better defense would mean your team has the puck more often and you would have more opportunities offensively. A player's defensive ability adds to their offensive production, not hinders it.

bambamcam4ever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-28-2013, 09:26 AM
  #33
LolClarkson*
Canucks 4 the cup
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Embrace the hate
Posts: 8,908
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
There's a difference between being a defensively capable player who gets to play offense 80% of his time, and an offensively gifted player who spends 50% of his time playing defense and focuses on defense as the first priority.

The Sedins would have far fewer points if they tried to play like Dats/Z, not more points. And if you think a supporting cast of Franzen, Nyquist, Abdelkader, Kronwall, Ericsson, Kindl, Smith gets them more points than one with Kesler, Booth, Burrows, Hamhuis, Edler, Bieksa, Garrison... you're nuts.
Do you have the plus minus stats to show how liable the Sedins are in the D zone?

That was the excuse before the Sedins graduated to the top line and they were on the second line giving guys like Anson Carter 33 goals. At the time everyone said that they were not facing top D pairings blah blah blah. The following years they faced top D pairings and won 2 Art Ross and a hart between the 2 of them.

LolClarkson* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-28-2013, 09:42 AM
  #34
danyhabsfan
Registered User
 
danyhabsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,688
vCash: 500
HM

Alex Galchenyuk 21.89

danyhabsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-28-2013, 10:52 AM
  #35
TopShelfYzerman
Gm 6 Double OT
 
TopShelfYzerman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,892
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by danyhabsfan View Post
HM

Alex Galchenyuk 21.89
lol. how many gp?

TopShelfYzerman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-28-2013, 11:48 AM
  #36
Cursed Lemon
Registered Bruiser
 
Cursed Lemon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 4,579
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Cursed Lemon Send a message via MSN to Cursed Lemon Send a message via Yahoo to Cursed Lemon
Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
Offense and defense are intertwined. Playing better defense would mean your team has the puck more often and you would have more opportunities offensively. A player's defensive ability adds to their offensive production, not hinders it.
Playing better defense means that opposing players don't get quality chances, or can't move through the neutral zone. It does not mean puck possession time.

Cursed Lemon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-28-2013, 11:49 AM
  #37
Mathew Barzal
Future Canuck.
 
Mathew Barzal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,819
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
Do you have the plus minus stats to show how liable the Sedins are in the D zone?

That was the excuse before the Sedins graduated to the top line and they were on the second line giving guys like Anson Carter 33 goals. At the time everyone said that they were not facing top D pairings blah blah blah. The following years they faced top D pairings and won 2 Art Ross and a hart between the 2 of them.
I hope you know your whole second paragraph does not provide an argument in any way. It's just stating that the Sedin's are capable of being offensive dynamo's. Which everybody knows already.

I've watched nearly every Canucks game over the past four years and I can tell you straight up the Sedins are some of the worst backcheckers I've seen in a while. They cheat for breakout passes and glide back on defense. I'm sure it's how AV uses them but that's no excuse. You'll see a big difference in play with Torts here.

Mathew Barzal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-28-2013, 12:13 PM
  #38
Komarov77
Registered User
 
Komarov77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Country: Finland
Posts: 1,172
vCash: 500
Oh wow someone said Sedins are better than Datsuyk and Zetterberg and about every post is about defending Detroits duo

Komarov77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-28-2013, 12:28 PM
  #39
ARSix
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,644
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneiderman View Post
I've watched nearly every Canucks game over the past four years and I can tell you straight up the Sedins are some of the worst backcheckers I've seen in a while. They cheat for breakout passes and glide back on defense. I'm sure it's how AV uses them but that's no excuse. You'll see a big difference in play with Torts here.
Gee that's funny because this guy is much smarter than you are and has, through extensive analysis, come to the opposite conclusion about the Sedins' current defensive game.
http://canucks.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=667209

ARSix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-28-2013, 01:03 PM
  #40
danyhabsfan
Registered User
 
danyhabsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopShelfYzerman View Post
lol. how many gp?
48 games

that just show that our coach needs to use him more.

danyhabsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-28-2013, 01:48 PM
  #41
Soth
Registered User
 
Soth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,087
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
So contrary to popular HF belief, the Canucks duo is better then the Detroit Due.
So you pick on one team's star players, and then you wonder why people pick on our star players?

Hmmm hard to figure this one out isn't it Einstein.

Soth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-28-2013, 02:05 PM
  #42
Bankerguy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 946
vCash: 500
Sedins dont play 24 minutes a night like some other forwards in the league.
This stat really shows how productive they really are.

They do get a lot of draws in the offensive zone..... and in regards to the Dats/Z vs Sedin argument in this thread....obviously the Detroit Duo is as good..probably better when you factor in their contribution to the defensive side of the game.

BUT ...we're not talking about D ...read the bloody title..its offense proficiency....and the Sedins obviously kick butt at it


One more thing...Spezza!!! you dont get enough love ! that is a very impressive number.

Also, its nice seeing Tanguay on that list. Shows you how bad Col ripped off the Flames with that trade a few days ago haha

Bankerguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-28-2013, 02:10 PM
  #43
NeedleInTheHay
Registered User
 
NeedleInTheHay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,851
vCash: 500
Crosby destroys the competition here, pretty impressive stat.

NeedleInTheHay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-28-2013, 02:56 PM
  #44
The Red Line
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,746
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by danyhabsfan View Post
48 games

that just show that our coach needs to use him more.
So your'e saying he already qualifies for Iron Man status? Impressive.

The Red Line is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-29-2013, 12:16 AM
  #45
LolClarkson*
Canucks 4 the cup
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Embrace the hate
Posts: 8,908
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Komarov77 View Post
Oh wow someone said Sedins are better than Datsuyk and Zetterberg and about every post is about defending Detroits duo
And we even have a Canucks fan defending the Detroit duo

/

LolClarkson* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-29-2013, 12:58 AM
  #46
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bankerguy View Post
Sedins dont play 24 minutes a night like some other forwards in the league.
Like Kovalchuk. And nobody else.

The last forward to average 23+ minutes total per game (before Kovalchuk was a Devil) was Ovechkin in 2008-09; the last 24+ minute forward (before Kovalchuk) was Martin St.Louis in 2007-08.

Also notable? The Sedins have had very similar ES and PP time to Datsyuk and Zetterberg in the past three seasons. But Dats/Z have averaged 1:06 and 1:01 on the PK over that span, respectively. The Sedins have averaged 0:08 (Hank) and 0:05 (Daniel) on the PK (and that time is only due to beginning shifts on an expiring penalty). So the Detroit duo is basically equal offensively per-minute, while playing mostly apart at ES while the Sedins play almost always together (aside from the stretch Daniel was injured).

Quote:
This stat really shows how productive they really are.

They do get a lot of draws in the offensive zone..... and in regards to the Dats/Z vs Sedin argument in this thread....obviously the Detroit Duo is as good..probably better when you factor in their contribution to the defensive side of the game.

BUT ...we're not talking about D ...read the bloody title..its offense proficiency....and the Sedins obviously kick butt at it
Yes... but the reason it became a point of contention is because a Vancouver fan said that this stat said/implied "see, look, the Sedins are better players than Datsyuk+Zetterberg!". Not offensively, but overall.

Quote:
One more thing...Spezza!!! you dont get enough love ! that is a very impressive number.
Also I'm missing Tavares' name when I read this list of "best offensive players".

Quote:
Also, its nice seeing Tanguay on that list. Shows you how bad Col ripped off the Flames with that trade a few days ago haha
Being fair, after the Iginla trade this season Tanguay had two points in eight games and his rate was 66.57 minutes/point. If you assume a team's top forwards to play around 21-22 minutes per game, that puts him just over 25 points if he were to play that kind of ice time. That's fourth-liner production, without the defense and grit offered by most fourth-liners.

Still so sure Calgary was ripped off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
And we even have a Canucks fan defending the Detroit duo

/
Tell ya what GR. I'm going to go make three polls about the Sedins and the Detroit duo. One will be "Rank these players offensively" and have a poll option for each order. The others will be similar, except it will be "Rank these players defensively" and "Rank these players overall".

Let's see how it turns out.

EDIT: Polls are up. Feel free to head over and vote.


Last edited by pdd: 06-29-2013 at 01:26 AM.
pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-29-2013, 01:16 AM
  #47
deytookerjaabs
Registered Smut User
 
deytookerjaabs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago
Posts: 6,009
vCash: 500
Geez, I'm a Hawks fan but can give the Sedins credit where it is due. It's incredibly difficult to hem those two in their own zone, just like when Crosby is on the ice. The best defense is not giving up the puck and keeping it in the offensive zone. I'd rather them than players who sit at the point all day and snipe one-and-done opportunities which keep the entire team having to run back on D.

deytookerjaabs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-29-2013, 01:24 AM
  #48
DamonDRW
Registered User
 
DamonDRW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Tampere, Finland
Country: Finland
Posts: 1,538
vCash: 500
Sedins are pretty comparable offensively and defensively to Datsyuk/Zetterberg. The difference is versatality of the latter two (they can play all defence, all offence a mix of it together/separated, etc., especially, compared to Sedins who are at their best when paired together) and some special things (paly-off performance of Zetterberg, magic plays no one can do by Datsyuk, Sedins possession is better though).

For example, as a Red Wings fan, I would be against replacing Detsyuk/Zetterberg with Sedins. But... it wouldn't be a huge issue at all. I would have liked them as much as I like Datsyuk/Zetterberg now After all we are comparing two highest skill duos in NHL...

DamonDRW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-29-2013, 01:36 AM
  #49
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DamonDRW View Post
Sedins are pretty comparable offensively and defensively to Datsyuk/Zetterberg.
Wait what? The Sedins are ok defensively... but Dats and Z are elite defensively. This is like saying Cory Emmerton is pretty comparable to Datsyuk and Zetterberg defensively.

Quote:
After all we are comparing two highest skill duos in NHL...
Given that Datsyuk and Zetterberg play together only marginally more than Crosby and Malkin, and less than Stamkos/St.Louis, I'd say the Sedins rank fourth at best.

If we're talking about guys who are regular linemates at ES, the Sedins have a very strong argument for the #2 position but definitely are not #1 (Marty St. Louis alone matches their Hart+Lindsay/Pearson+Art Rossx2, and he is better defensively).

Toews/Kane or Toews/Hossa also have a strong case over the Sedins. Not to mention Ovechkin/Backstrom.

Zetterberg and Datsyuk are both pretty solid bets for 90 points next season given the move to the East and the fact that Detroit is trying to acquire a full time 2C who can fill the role better than Filppula did (Weiss was the primary target, Lecavalier is likely also a significant name on Holland's list now if not the #1 target now).

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:03 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.