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The Luongo Thread: Part LXMIIV - I Can't Roman Numerals Edition

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06-29-2013, 01:20 AM
  #726
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Originally Posted by Kesler2Burrows View Post
And in hindsight how does that decision look? How do we know Gillis has gotten any tangible offers for Luongo since the new CBA? Again if there was a market for Roberto Luongo he wouldn't be a Canuck right now. This situation has dragged on for far to long Gillis must admit to his mistake and waive him.
But if has never received any tangible offers that Luongo would have given his blessing to, what exactly is his mistake?

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06-29-2013, 01:22 AM
  #727
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Originally Posted by I in the Eye View Post
Well, if it looks like Philly was about to acquire Lu (via a $1.5m salary retention that Gillis finally agreed to, begrudgingly), I could see Florida parting with assets that they don't really need, in the grand scheme of things, to pay more than they've offered to date, to get Lu (how many star players want to play for Florida?)... Florida doesn't need salary retention, bad contract buyout works fine for them... If Tallon was basically competing with himself, and low offers all around, he'd want to pay bare minimum (I don't blame him)...
They would want Luongo for a starter on a starters salary for 2-3 years to break in Markstrom ad backup, give the time to see what they have. I can see them wanting Luongo as a UFA just not on his current deal.

The Luongo situation is just a perfect storm

A) elite goalie still, just the Nucks have 2. If we didn't have Schneider we'd have no need to trade him.

B) CBA was a killer

C) lots of goalies with questions had good enough years they took their teams out of it. (Reimer, Bobrovsky, Andersson, Niemi, Elliot, Holtby, etc)

D) surprises like Fasth in Anaheim, Bob winning the Vezina.

E) lot of good vet goalie getting dumped at the same time. (Miller, Hiller, Luongo)

F) some teams that need a goalie either chasing shadows (TB), Wpeg not accepting they need an upgrade.

G) trying to move him in a year cap drops to $64m.


Perfect storm.

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06-29-2013, 01:23 AM
  #728
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I was admittedly fine with the contract at the time. Happy about it, even.

I still don't think it's a terrible contract for another team to take on. But due to the CBA change, it's a terrible contract for the Canucks now.

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06-29-2013, 01:25 AM
  #729
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Honestly the contract is not on Gillis. It is the only anomaly in all the contracts Gillis has given out over his tenure. It has Aquilini's fingerprints all over it. Ownership wanted Luongo here for life, and they forced Gillis to give him a contract he has openly been against (for other players).

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06-29-2013, 01:25 AM
  #730
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Originally Posted by m9 View Post
I was admittedly fine with the contract at the time. Happy about it, even.

I still don't think it's a terrible contract for another team to take on. But due to the CBA change, it's a terrible contract for the Canucks now.
I do wonder if Gillis would prefer to buy it out - but has been told not to do that by Aqualini. I also wonder if Aqualini did instruct Gillis to make the big long term deal I the first place.

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06-29-2013, 01:27 AM
  #731
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Originally Posted by I in the Eye View Post
Other than Gillis' word (although bad contracts attached, so a non-starter), we don't...

I agree that the situation has dragged on... I agree that it is time now to deal with it... But I can't concede that it's been too long, until I see the return... If I like the return, the time it took was just right... The return was fine, plus Luongo was on the team to (theoretically) help the Canucks on a cup run... Would be a pretty good deal to me...

It's not looking great, today... But I don't expect it to look great today... I expect it to look good the day of the trade... I consider this a negotiation, and at times in a negotiation, things look bad... They are supposed to in negotiations of significance where two parties are trying to get all they can, with what they've got, concerning a notable asset...
I'll give you this if Gillis can get even a half decent return for Luongo I'll gladly admit I was wrong but until than I'll stick to my opinion on the situation being poorly managed by Gillis. I'm not one to hate on Gillis either, I constantly defend him in probably every other occasion.

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06-29-2013, 01:27 AM
  #732
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Originally Posted by me2 View Post
They would want Luongo for a starter on a starters salary for 2-3 years to break in Markstrom ad backup, give the time to see what they have. I can see them wanting Luongo as a UFA just not on his current deal.

The Luongo situation is just a perfect storm

A) elite goalie still, just the Nucks have 2. If we didn't have Schneider we'd have no need to trade him.

B) CBA was a killer

C) lots of goalies with questions had good enough years they took their teams out of it. (Reimer, Bobrovsky, Andersson, Niemi, Elliot, Holtby, etc)

D) surprises like Fasth in Anaheim, Bob winning the Vezina.

E) lot of good vet goalie getting dumped at the same time. (Miller, Hiller, Luongo)

F) some teams that need a goalie either chasing shadows (TB), Wpeg not accepting they need an upgrade.

G) trying to move him in a year cap drops to $64m.


Perfect storm.
Ya, you might be right... But I think that affects value... It gives reasons for teams to offer as low as possible... I don't think that makes current Luongo, contract and all, value-less...

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06-29-2013, 01:27 AM
  #733
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Originally Posted by I in the Eye View Post
Back then, they analyzed and learned that the contract wasn't that bad... with the new CBA, it got worse then it was... but it's still not that bad. Instead of really looking at it and learning now, they've just taken it being bad (Lecavalier level and DiPietro level bad) because so many people have said this... mass hysteria...

GM's are trying to get Luongo for as low as possible... believing that Gillis has little leverage... Media is eating this up, and clumsily coming to shortsighted conclusions... fans are too lazy to dig deep themselves... That is all this is... Talk of buyout is absurd... unless all other GM's are colluding to take Lui to UFA... which is also absurd...
It's easy to say it should never have been signed because of the recapture clause and all... where was the crystal ball in 2009? But even now it's still not bad.

But yeah, too much groupthink going on around on HF, not enough critical thinking these days. Probably because of spending time on the main boards.

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06-29-2013, 01:28 AM
  #734
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Originally Posted by Kesler2Burrows View Post
I'll give you this if Gillis can get even a half decent return for Luongo I'll gladly admit I was wrong but until than I'll stick to my opinion on the situation being poorly managed by Gillis. I'm not one to hate on Gillis either, I constantly defend him in probably every other occasion.
And I'll gladly admit I was wrong too... I think he sailed the ship pretty nicely... but like me2 said, the ship sailed into a perfect storm...

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06-29-2013, 01:28 AM
  #735
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I hate that stupid new cba rule about these contracts. It's absolutely ridiculous that they are able to make a new rule like that and apply it to contracts already signed.

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06-29-2013, 01:29 AM
  #736
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Originally Posted by StanGrossman View Post
But if has never received any tangible offers that Luongo would have given his blessing to, what exactly is his mistake?
How do we know Luongo wouldn't waive his NTC? He's quoted on saying that he hasn't been asked to waive.

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06-29-2013, 01:29 AM
  #737
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
It really is this simple. I think we are moving Luongo because we have Schneider. If Schneider were not here, we would keep Luongo.

I showed you a direct quote from Luongo where he said he was never asked to waive to a team other than Florida, and if he would have been asked, he would have said yes. Is that "evidence" enough for you that Florida isn't the only option?

You have not provided a single speck of evidence that Luongo wants to leave from his family. And if you want to play the "But poster X said ___" card(not that I think it's at all considered "evidence") then here you go:

The hypothetical Schneider/Luongo guessing is pointless and should not be entertained, at all. The only way to prove your point is to remove Schneider from the equation via time machine.

We have Luongo's direct quote, and Gillis + Maclean + Shannon + other sources contradicting it. Who to believe?

Family is a consideration for Luongo's departure. It's quite humorous to suggest otherwise. His wife was noted not to live here anymore, as of recently. He nixed a deal to TOR in order to facilitate deal with FLA, where his family lives. It's his first choice for a reason. That single speck of evidence seems sufficient enough. Whether you want to see it or not.

Again, I have never said FLA was the only option. Where are you getting this from? It's his first choice, but not his only choice.



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So is that a good enough reason that perhaps Luongo isn't as desperate to move to Florida as you think?(not that I should have to prove anything, as this isn't a proof)

Instead of referencing vague evidence, why don't you show me how you know Luongo won't go anywhere except Florida, when Luongo himself stated otherwise?

And hell, even if you think Luongo lied, and Maclean is telling the truth, then I have a very simple answer: Toronto was a bottom feeder at the time. Finished 5th last and 2nd last the past two years. There's a reason few high profile UFAs signed in Toronto, it's because it's wasn't(at least then, now it might be different) at all a competitive team.

As I in the Eye points out, it is evidence. Evidence about as good as can be expected on a message board. If it's not sufficient for yourself, then that's a different matter. But based on what passes for evidence here, it fits the bill.

Ah so it's ok to speculate on why TOR was not a desired spot when it suits your purpose? Umm ok.


Quote:
I generally avoid gambling period, but I certainly wouldn't bet on something that I don't think is likely to happen.

About what I expected.



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Unless he's actually living in Florida, I don't see any real difference between Vancouver and Toronto in terms of how often he'll see his family.

Again, what's his first preference and why?



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You're kidding yourself if you think the reason you're willing to make that bet is because of his "history". It's because there are 27 other teams all with as equal a chance as us at signing him.

According to your "history" logic, that should be applied to every single team but Dallas, Boston, and Montreal. So you should be willing to bet he won't sign with any team but those three.

I said earlier I would give you odds that he won't sign here because he there are other teams vying for his services. I'm saying that I'm reasonably confident that he won't sign here due to the evidence I consider pertinent. If you don't believe it, PM me and we can work out a deal.

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06-29-2013, 01:30 AM
  #738
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Originally Posted by luongo321 View Post
I hate that stupid new cba rule about these contracts. It's absolutely ridiculous that they are able to make a new rule like that and apply it to contracts already signed.
Agreed.

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06-29-2013, 01:34 AM
  #739
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The hypothetical Schneider/Luongo guessing is pointless and should not be entertained, at all. The only way to prove your point is to remove Schneider from the equation via time machine.

We have Luongo's direct quote, and Gillis + Maclean + Shannon + other sources contradicting it. Who to believe?

Family is a consideration for Luongo's departure. It's quite humorous to suggest otherwise. His wife was noted not to live here anymore, as of recently. He nixed a deal to TOR in order to facilitate deal with FLA, where his family lives. It's his first choice for a reason. That single speck of evidence seems sufficient enough. Whether you want to see it or not.

Again, I have never said FLA was the only option. Where are you getting this from? It's his first choice, but not his only choice.






As I in the Eye points out, it is evidence. Evidence about as good as can be expected on a message board. If it's not sufficient for yourself, then that's a different matter. But based on what passes for evidence here, it fits the bill.

Ah so it's ok to speculate on why TOR was not a desired spot when it suits your purpose? Umm ok.





About what I expected.






Again, what's his first preference and why?






I said earlier I would give you odds that he won't sign here because he there are other teams vying for his services. I'm saying that I'm reasonably confident that he won't sign here due to the evidence I consider pertinent. If you don't believe it, PM me and we can work out a deal.
Seriously! You've been been posting basically the same post all day! We get it! He wants to be with his family.

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06-29-2013, 01:37 AM
  #740
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Originally Posted by StanGrossman View Post
I do wonder if Gillis would prefer to buy it out - but has been told not to do that by Aqualini. I also wonder if Aqualini did instruct Gillis to make the big long term deal I the first place.
So now, with no evidence whatsoever, you guys are running to Gillis' defence and claiming it wasn't his deal after all. Of course it was Gillis - and his "capologist"...remember the magic capologist?

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06-29-2013, 01:37 AM
  #741
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Originally Posted by I in the Eye View Post
Actually, that is a proof Or a correct piece of "evidence"... I do understand that you can't take that as a proof (or evidence)... but it's as good as background information as you can possibly get.

That's really what it comes down to. Good enough as any piece of evidence that has been posted here before, as in articles, radio and videos posted to support a stance. Not good enough for VKW.

Somehow I have to provide unequivocal proof to make the same case, when that has not been the norm for any board here.

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06-29-2013, 01:37 AM
  #742
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Originally Posted by I in the Eye View Post
Well, if it looks like Philly was about to acquire Lu (via a $1.5m salary retention that Gillis finally agreed to, begrudgingly), I could see Florida parting with assets that they don't really need, in the grand scheme of things, to pay more than they've offered to date, to get Lu (how many star players want to play for Florida?)... Florida doesn't need salary retention, bad contract buyout works fine for them... If Tallon was basically competing with himself, and low offers all around, he'd want to pay bare minimum (I don't blame him)...
In the general sense, the moment someone starts competing and offers more than the bare minimum (if even) that Florida has put on the table the ball's rolling. Just need one other team to come to its senses and we're in business here.

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06-29-2013, 01:39 AM
  #743
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Originally Posted by Hal 9000 View Post
Seriously! You've been been posting basically the same post all day! We get it! He wants to be with his family.
Funny thing is, some people actually don't "get it". It's why this same post has had to be repeated. Believe me, if I didn't have to constantly explain something I thought would be self-explanatory, my post count in this thread would definitely be lower.

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06-29-2013, 01:40 AM
  #744
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Originally Posted by StanGrossman View Post
Yup, that's the thing. People can analyze it anyway they like but the thing is that the teams he has GM'd have won their division ever year, been to the 2nd round 2 times, and the cup final once.

We are just getting spoiled. The guy has put the team in a position to win every year. Every year he has been here, we have thought there has been a half decent chance the team could actually win a cup. Best period in Canuck history.

He pisses me off too. I don't like him personally. I think he is an arrogant smug ******* of a guy, but he continually puts the team in a position to win.
It must be hard for you, then, to keep defending him here for signing the contract and how he's dealt with the situation as a whole.


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06-29-2013, 01:42 AM
  #745
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I hate that stupid new cba rule about these contracts. It's absolutely ridiculous that they are able to make a new rule like that and apply it to contracts already signed.
I heard somewhere (unfortunately don't have the source) that Burke pushed for it as part of his strategy to force gillis to trade Lou for peanuts.

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06-29-2013, 01:47 AM
  #746
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I heard somewhere (unfortunately don't have the source) that Burke pushed for it as part of his strategy to force gillis to trade Lou for peanuts.
I heard something to this effect. Burke was consulted on the new CBA. The ability to deal cash as a resource is his direct contribution. Other things may have been also, like punishing BDCs.

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06-29-2013, 01:51 AM
  #747
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Funny thing is, some people actually don't "get it". It's why this same post has had to be repeated. Believe me, if I didn't have to constantly explain something I thought would be self-explanatory, my post count in this thread would definitely be lower.
However, every player and/or their wives make decisions to live/work elsewhere if it helps them achieve their goal. For most players, that goal is to win a Stanley Cup. If Luongo chooses that he no longer cares about the SC, he may just settle in Florida and play out the string a'la Doan or Sundin. I wonder if the Sedins aren't in this group too. If he really wants the cup, and I believe that was the goal when he signed here, he'll likely choose a top contender. That's why the NYI doesn't seem possible because they offer neither a cup possibility nor are they close to family.

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06-29-2013, 01:57 AM
  #748
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It must be hard for you, then, to keep defending him here for signing the contract and how he's dealt with the situation as a whole.
Not really. I think you can criticize him for a lot of things - the Ballard deal, the Booth deal, the Hodgson trade, but the whole Luongo thing was not his doing, in my mind.

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06-29-2013, 02:00 AM
  #749
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However, every player and/or their wives make decisions to live/work elsewhere if it helps them achieve their goal. For most players, that goal is to win a Stanley Cup. If Luongo chooses that he no longer cares about the SC, he may just settle in Florida and play out the string a'la Doan or Sundin. I wonder if the Sedins aren't in this group too. If he really wants the cup, and I believe that was the goal when he signed here, he'll likely choose a top contender. That's why the NYI doesn't seem possible because they offer neither a cup possibility nor are they close to family.

Each aspect will be weighed. Cup aspirations, proximity to family, starters role etc... The point was that wherever he goes, he will be the starter, which makes that being his top priority unlikely. He will be the starter. So what's left? The cup hopes and proximity to his family. My contention is that his preference for FLA as his top choice is that he values proximity to his family as very important. As in the top criteria for him.

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06-29-2013, 02:02 AM
  #750
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They would want Luongo for a starter on a starters salary for 2-3 years to break in Markstrom ad backup, give the time to see what they have. I can see them wanting Luongo as a UFA just not on his current deal.

The Luongo situation is just a perfect storm

A) elite goalie still, just the Nucks have 2. If we didn't have Schneider we'd have no need to trade him.

B) CBA was a killer

C) lots of goalies with questions had good enough years they took their teams out of it. (Reimer, Bobrovsky, Andersson, Niemi, Elliot, Holtby, etc)

D) surprises like Fasth in Anaheim, Bob winning the Vezina.

E) lot of good vet goalie getting dumped at the same time. (Miller, Hiller, Luongo)

F) some teams that need a goalie either chasing shadows (TB), Wpeg not accepting they need an upgrade.

G) trying to move him in a year cap drops to $64m.


Perfect storm.
It really is. The cap dropping, and the 'Luongo rule' (hate that name) from out of left field just came together at the worst moment. A number of GM's simultaneous derping with regard to their goaltending didn't help matters.

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