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Cory Schneider is in play for Trade Discussion - Part II

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06-30-2013, 02:47 AM
  #151
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is it possible the nucks could trade both goalies to get "assets" back because i think the nucks arent even good enough to make the playoffs. its the beginning of a "rebuild era". nucks need some elcs to contribute.

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06-30-2013, 02:47 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Admittedly, I have yet to see Cizikas. So I will have to take your word on it. Strome has been a favorite of mine though since the World Juniors. That kid is something special. If Cizikas has a similar upside. I'm all for it.

I think we can finally breathe a sigh of relief that the days of a "Raymond hattrick" are finally over.
Not similar at all. Strome is an all offensive winger. Cizikas is a workhorse center.




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06-30-2013, 02:55 AM
  #153
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is it possible the nucks could trade both goalies to get "assets" back because i think the nucks arent even good enough to make the playoffs. its the beginning of a "rebuild era". nucks need some elcs to contribute.
No. They aren't tanking it with their current roster. They could put in any average goalie and still make the playoffs. The Schneider talk has everything to do with MG's inability to move Luongo.

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06-30-2013, 02:57 AM
  #154
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Mike Smith getting 6 years 5.5 per. Rask getting 7ish. Are people really worried about Luongo at 5.33 a few years from now?

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06-30-2013, 03:00 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
If Nichuskin is available at the 7th overall pick & is committed to playing in the NHL then I would be interested in doing it. That kid is an absolute monster.

Not sure who I would rather have though, top prospect (Probs Klefbom) or Gagner.

I would like to get a 2nd rounder too if possible so maybe something like 7th + Klefbom + 2nd Round pick, I would be interested in that. (Again if the Russian is available)
I would probably prefer Gagner, just because our defense is likely set for a while and I've always wanted to see what Kesler could do with a playmaker. If he and Gagner gelled, that would be an impressive line. I would then go on to try and add Cammalleri (we couldn't afford Booth) and voila. A second line that could arguably be a first line for many teams.

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Not similar at all. Strome is an all offensive winger. Cizikas is a workhorse center.
Leave it to me to miss that Islanders game. Still, that penalty kill was... beastly. I could be sold on Cizikas there.

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06-30-2013, 03:01 AM
  #156
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I don't understand why draft picks are held in such high regard. I suppose it's the mystery box fallacy in that these prospects have been so talked up that they seem like stars in the making. Simply put, there are very few assurances of anything in a draft.

If you analyze the players picked available in the 6-10 region, historically there have been more failures than successes.


- 2004's 6-10 picks are all busts.
- 2005's lone success was Setoguchi (unless you count players like Skille, Brule, Brian Lee, and an n/a in Bourdon successes.
- 2006's picks are all NHL players, however the players are all middling (Brassard, Okposo, Mueller, Sheppard, Frolik)
- 2007 was quite successful, with Gagner, Voracek, and Couture as good top 6 forwards. The misses were Hamill and Ellerby.
- 2008 was middling again, with Hodgson as the most successful to date. Filatov, Wilson, Boedker and Bailey were the rest.

I'm willing to bet that none of those players, with the exception of Nichushkin have the upside to be very good players.
Yeah, well I think Monahan & Lindholm do have the potential to be good players but I don't see them as franchise players, I don't see the extremely high upside in Lindholm as he is a bit small, and while a great playmaker has an underwhelming shot. I think he is like David Krejci but who knows if he can be that good.

Monahan looks like M.Richards though I question his offensive ability and if he can be atleast a 70+ point layer or not. He will be a good player but who knows what his upside it.

Nichushkin on the other hand, wow. If that kid is available and committed to this team & the NHL long term, as a Cory die hard fan and someone who would rather buyout/waive Lu than trade Cory, I would really consider long and hard about trading Cory for the 7th+ cause man that kid is the complete package offensively, he's physical, and isn't a slouch defensively.

That kid is money, the others I'm not as crazy about but I really want him.

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06-30-2013, 03:02 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Hammer79 View Post
No. They aren't tanking it with their current roster. They could put in any average goalie and still make the playoffs. The Schneider talk has everything to do with MG's inability to move Luongo.
not nesscarily tanking"... who says the current team is tanking. they are the same roster from last year.... they need scoring help ASAP

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06-30-2013, 03:03 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
I would probably prefer Gagner, just because our defense is likely set for a while and I've always wanted to see what Kesler could do with a playmaker. If he and Gagner gelled, that would be an impressive line. I would then go on to try and add Cammalleri (we couldn't afford Booth) and voila. A second line that could arguably be a first line for many teams.



Leave it to me to miss that Islanders game. Still, that penalty kill was... beastly. I could be sold on Cizikas there.
Yeah Cammalleri is a good player, I would like to see more of Booth though, I think he can still be a useful top 6 forward, and he brings those added elements that our team needs, I wouldn't deal him so soon especially with his value so low.

Gagner would be solid, for me as long as we get the Russian and maybe another 2nd rounder I would be okay with either, Gagner I didn't follow enough, I do question what he is long term as I said before cause I don't see alot more upside then there is also the contract status to worry about but he is a good player that could help us now.

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06-30-2013, 03:10 AM
  #159
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It has always made perfect sense to consider all the alternatives regarding the Schneider/Luongo situation. I think you can criticize Gillis for not putting trade Schneider option forth more quickly. He should have realized a long time ago that moving Luongo was difficult and unlikely to fetch much of anything. Also, I'm not sure of that AV's use of these players has been advantageous in helping Gillis out in making the trade.

There are advantages to keeping Schneider but declaring Schneider vastly superior to Luongo is a huge stretch. Both have had periods of excellent play and there were clearly times last year when Luongo looked better. And when you consider the possible return for Schneider and have some belief that Luongo can provide at least good goal-tending then it only makes sense to consider trading Schneider

This team team needs help elsewhere and needs to get younger at certain positions. In the end, what's the good having possibly an excellent goaltender in Schneider if, in a couple of years, we have real problems at center or other spots in the lineup??? If you can do well enough with Luongo and strengthen for now and into the future by moving Schneider shouldn't that, at least , be considered?

Moreover, some the problems IMO with Luongo have existed because of the way AV used him. Far as I'm concerned it was Luongo that was the source of much of the success AV had but AV was only too willing to throw Luongo to the wolves when it suited him. Leaving Luongo in some of the embarrassing situations AV did, was just one of the examples. Having a new coach creates the possibility of establishing a better situation for Luongo.

There are valid arguments for wanting to move Luongo but it seems senseless (and in some cases hyperbolic over-reaction), to me, not to consider alternatives to getting nothing for Luongo. If you can get the right deal for Schneider then it seems silly and bullheaded to negate that as any kind of possibility.

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06-30-2013, 03:19 AM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
Yeah Cammalleri is a good player, I would like to see more of Booth though, I think he can still be a useful top 6 forward, and he brings those added elements that our team needs, I wouldn't deal him so soon especially with his value so low.

Gagner would be solid, for me as long as we get the Russian and maybe another 2nd rounder I would be okay with either, Gagner I didn't follow enough, I do question what he is long term as I said before cause I don't see alot more upside then there is also the contract status to worry about but he is a good player that could help us now.
According to my testing with capgeek. If we acquired Gagner, we have to deal Booth. That extra million pretty much covers the difference between Luongo and Schneider. My roster from earlier:

FORWARDS
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Zack Kassian ($0.870m)
Mike Cammalleri ($3.000m—50.0%) / Sam Gagner ($4.000m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m)
Chris Higgins ($2.500m) / Jordan Schroeder ($0.851m) / Alexandre Burrows ($4.500m)
Dale Weise ($0.677m) / Maxim Lapierre ($1.000m) / Jannik Hansen ($1.350m)
Tom Sestito ($0.750m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Alexander Edler ($5.000m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
Jason Garrison ($4.600m) / Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m)
Frank Corrado ($0.599m) / Chris Tanev ($1.300m)
Andrew Alberts ($0.700m) /
GOALTENDERS
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m)
Eddie Lack ($0.750m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,079,778; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $220,222
-----------

We are basically asking Gagner and Tanev to buy into a short term contract at less value so we can stack the roster and attempt one last hoorah before our swan song. I think Gagner could be convinced, given he has never tasted success at the level Vancouver offer and he stands to get an even better contract in a year or two by waiting.

There are certainly risks with Gagner's potential, however I believe he has good offensive upside, perhaps the opposite of Kesler in that respect (Defense/Offense vs Offense/Defense). Hard to say where he perks as he is only twenty three and again, has been mired in a failtastic Oilers organization. Winning can change a lot about a player.

I agree though, if we get Nichushkin, that would be fantastic. I would be happy with Monahan though.

I will admit to some bias regarding Cammalleri. He championed the Habs success with an insanely impressive playoff run. Still, I feel he is definitely worth it. His size is not at all the hindrance some might argue and he has a wrist shot that rivals Kesler's. My main reason for touting him is the best player he's played with in six years as Iginla. He happened to put up 40 goals that season. With the Sedins and Kesler? He could reach 30+


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06-30-2013, 03:23 AM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
Gagner would be solid, for me as long as we get the Russian and maybe another 2nd rounder I would be okay with either, Gagner I didn't follow enough, I do question what he is long term as I said before cause I don't see alot more upside then there is also the contract status to worry about but he is a good player that could help us now.
I would agree. It should be noted that Gagner played on the 1st line PP, and he only had 8pts without one of the big 4 being in on it. He spent around 10% of his ice time without them last year.

I understand that it's an odd argument, but my point is that he was put into the best situation to produce. His first half numbers were great, but he only had 14pts in the last 22.

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06-30-2013, 03:26 AM
  #162
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Nichuskin scares me. I'd much rather Lindholm or Monahan, if possible. Ideally we could add something nice to get a top 3 pick from Tampa.

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06-30-2013, 03:30 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
According to my testing with capgeek. If we acquired Gagner, we have to deal Booth. That extra million pretty much covers the difference between Luongo and Schneider. My roster from earlier:

FORWARDS
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Zack Kassian ($0.870m)
Mike Cammalleri ($3.000m50.0%) / Sam Gagner ($4.000m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m)
Chris Higgins ($2.500m) / Jordan Schroeder ($0.851m) / Alexandre Burrows ($4.500m)
Dale Weise ($0.677m) / Maxim Lapierre ($1.000m) / Jannik Hansen ($1.350m)
Tom Sestito ($0.750m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Alexander Edler ($5.000m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
Jason Garrison ($4.600m) / Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m)
Frank Corrado ($0.599m) / Chris Tanev ($1.300m)
Andrew Alberts ($0.700m) /
GOALTENDERS
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m)
Eddie Lack ($0.750m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,079,778; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $220,222
-----------

We are basically asking Gagner and Tanev to buy into a short term contract at less value so we can stack the roster and attempt one last hoorah before our swan song. I think Gagner could be convinced, given he has never tasted success at the level Vancouver offer and he stands to get an even better contract in a year or two by waiting.

There are certainly risks with Gagner's potential, however I believe he has good offensive upside, perhaps the opposite of Kesler in that respect (Defense/Offense vs Offense/Defense). Hard to say where he perks as he is only twenty three and again, has been mired in a failtastic Oilers organization. Winning can change a lot about a player.

I agree though, if we get Nichushkin, that would be fantastic. I would be happy with Monahan though.

I will admit to some bias regarding Cammalleri. He championed the Habs success with an insanely impressive playoff run. Still, I feel he is definitely worth it. His size is not at all the hindrance some might argue and he has a wrist shot that rivals Kesler's. My main reason for touting him is the best player he's played with in six years as Iginla. He happened to put up 40 goals that season. With the Sedins and Kesler? He could reach 30+
I like the playoff upside in Cammalleri. And I am a Cammalleri fan so I do agree with your points.

Anyways, I don't know if Gagner is worth 4 Million, I would be really hesitant to offer him that honestly. Atleast at anything more than 1 year.

And another thing is if we got Nichuskin, he might be able to step and play right away, his size, skill and power might really work with Kesler since he has the power Booth players with but much higher offensive/playmaking talent.

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I would agree. It should be noted that Gagner played on the 1st line PP, and he only had 8pts without one of the big 4 being in on it. He spent around 10% of his ice time without them last year.

I understand that it's an odd argument, but my point is that he was put into the best situation to produce. His first half numbers were great, but he only had 14pts in the last 22.
He is a good player, I just don't really see high end upside with him, and I think getting a player like Klefbom will be beneficial long term more so than Gagner, although if we can get an added 2nd I would be happy with either player.

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06-30-2013, 03:31 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
According to my testing with capgeek. If we acquired Gagner, we have to deal Booth. That extra million pretty much covers the difference between Luongo and Schneider. My roster from earlier:

FORWARDS
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Zack Kassian ($0.870m)
Mike Cammalleri ($3.000m50.0%) / Sam Gagner ($4.000m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m)
Chris Higgins ($2.500m) / Jordan Schroeder ($0.851m) / Alexandre Burrows ($4.500m)
Dale Weise ($0.677m) / Maxim Lapierre ($1.000m) / Jannik Hansen ($1.350m)
Tom Sestito ($0.750m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Alexander Edler ($5.000m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
Jason Garrison ($4.600m) / Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m)
Frank Corrado ($0.599m) / Chris Tanev ($1.300m)
Andrew Alberts ($0.700m) /
GOALTENDERS
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m)
Eddie Lack ($0.750m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,079,778; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $220,222
-----------
Again, how do you figure we can trade Booth and have someone pick up his entire contract, and at the same time think that Calgary will pick up half of the contract of a much superior player in Cammalleri? Doesn't make sense.

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06-30-2013, 03:32 AM
  #165
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Nichuskin scares me. I'd much rather Lindholm or Monahan, if possible. Ideally we could add something nice to get a top 3 pick from Tampa.
The "Russian Factor" scares me too, but he is so much better than both of those two. Lindholm doesn't impress me much, he works hard and has great playmaking instincts but his shot is underwhelming, the upside is there for like a 60-70 point player but then again I don't think he is a sure thing to be a huge boom prospect.

Monahan is not bad, I do question his offensive ability though. He could still be useful even as a 60 point Mike Richards esque guy.

But Nichuskin, man he is something.

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06-30-2013, 03:46 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
I like the playoff upside in Cammalleri. And I am a Cammalleri fan so I do agree with your points.

Anyways, I don't know if Gagner is worth 4 Million, I would be really hesitant to offer him that honestly. Atleast at anything more than 1 year.

And another thing is if we got Nichuskin, he might be able to step and play right away, his size, skill and power might really work with Kesler since he has the power Booth players with but much higher offensive/playmaking talent.
That would be the plan, yes. One, maybe two years as a sort of "bridging contract." If we could get him to agree to less, fantastic.

If we drafted Nichuskin, I would fit him in over Weise or Setitto and rotate hm around the roster based on play. Maybe we start the season like this:

Sedin - Sedin - Kassian
Cammalleri - Gagner - Kesler
Nichushkin - Schroeder - Burrows
Higgins - Lapiere - Hansen

That has some sickening potential.

Quote:
He is a good player, I just don't really see high end upside with him, and I think getting a player like Klefbom will be beneficial long term more so than Gagner, although if we can get an added 2nd I would be happy with either player.
Perhaps. I certainly would not be disappointed with Klefbom. However, based on our offensive needs. I am willing to gamble Gagner is the real deal and would excel in a winning environment.

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Originally Posted by MS View Post
Again, how do you figure we can trade Booth and have someone pick up his entire contract, and at the same time think that Calgary will pick up half of the contract of a much superior player in Cammalleri? Doesn't make sense.
Booth + 1st (ours) for Cammalleri (half price).

Flame fans like it and by acquiring Edmonton's pick, we lose little by dealing our own. If we got a second back from Edmonton as well, we are even further covered.

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06-30-2013, 03:50 AM
  #167
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One of Lindholm, Nichushkin or Monahan will be there at #7.

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06-30-2013, 03:51 AM
  #168
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I might just be crazy here but didn't Dreger say Vancouver wanted a top young first line centre? If so maybe we're targeting RNH? Doubt the Oilers even consider it though.

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06-30-2013, 03:53 AM
  #169
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The "Russian Factor" scares me too, but he is so much better than both of those two. Lindholm doesn't impress me much, he works hard and has great playmaking instincts but his shot is underwhelming, the upside is there for like a 60-70 point player but then again I don't think he is a sure thing to be a huge boom prospect.

Monahan is not bad, I do question his offensive ability though. He could still be useful even as a 60 point Mike Richards esque guy.

But Nichuskin, man he is something.
The Russian factor doesn't scare me as much as the red flags that have been raised about his attitude/character. Monahan has been described as the safest pick in the draft. Nichushkin epitomizes the mystery box phenomenon. Even with all that talent he could easily be the biggest bust of the draft, and not because he's Russian.

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06-30-2013, 03:55 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
That would be the plan, yes. One, maybe two years as a sort of "bridging contract." If we could get him to agree to less, fantastic.

If we drafted Nichuskin, I would fit him in over Weise or Setitto and rotate hm around the roster based on play. Maybe we start the season like this:

Sedin - Sedin - Kassian
Cammalleri - Gagner - Kesler
Nichushkin - Schroeder - Burrows
Higgins - Lapiere - Hansen

That has some sickening potential.
I agree with your points and stuff.

But Imagine a line with Jensen and Nichushkin on it, that was be insane. *drools*

Quote:
Perhaps. I certainly would not be disappointed with Klefbom. However, based on our offensive needs. I am willing to gamble Gagner is the real deal and would excel in a winning environment.
Yeah right now I would too as long as we get Nichushkin as apart of the deal. And hopefully another pick or something.

Quote:
Booth + 1st (ours) for Cammalleri (half price).

Flame fans like it and by acquiring Edmonton's pick, we lose little by dealing our own. If we got a second back from Edmonton as well, we are even further covered.
In a way I would kinda rather hold onto our pick and just keep Booth. Cammalleri is good but we have a chance with this pick to add something really important going forward, and Booth is good enough for our team IMO, Cammalleri is better but Booth is still fine.

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06-30-2013, 03:58 AM
  #171
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I'm kinda scared to draft Nishuskin if we get the Oilers pick cause he's already used the KHL card and he'll do it again, he will want a big payday after elc, doesn't he have reported attitude problems? If so I'm not so sure he'll mix in well with this group. Lindholm or Monahan would be great, we have a great history with Swedish players and I don't get why people call him smaller? He's 6 foot and nearly 200lbs, also I would Be happy with Horvat so if those guys aren't available I wouldn't have a problem trade back and getting a 2nd then draft Horvat he sounds like a ROR or Kesler kinda player and I would love more guys like that here, snap up Hartman with our 1st.

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06-30-2013, 03:59 AM
  #172
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I might just be crazy here but didn't Dreger say Vancouver wanted a top young first line centre? If so maybe we're targeting RNH? Doubt the Oilers even consider it though.
Who would center their top line? So yeah I doubt they'd even think about it.

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06-30-2013, 04:00 AM
  #173
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I think a key dynamic that a lot of people here are over looking (I read all the posts), is that this team might have only 1 more year to compete for a cup before the window closes, and the compliance buy-out option for Luongo will still be available at that point.

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06-30-2013, 04:00 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by SDK View Post
One of Lindholm, Nichushkin or Monahan will be there at #7.
Yup & hopefully its one of those too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kesler2Burrows View Post
I might just be crazy here but didn't Dreger say Vancouver wanted a top young first line centre? If so maybe we're targeting RNH? Doubt the Oilers even consider it though.
Yeah thats good, demand a high price. I'm glad he is doing this, he understands what trading Cory to that team will do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
The Russian factor doesn't scare me as much as the red flags that have been raised about his attitude/character. Monahan has been described as the safest pick in the draft. Nichushkin epitomizes the mystery box phenomenon. Even with all that talent he could easily be the biggest bust of the draft, and not because he's Russian.
Monahan is a solid pick, wouldn't be unhappy with him at all.

As for the Russian, yeah its a valid concern but I think its less a concern with him than it is with say Mantha.

I don't think he will bust out as he does have the desire to play in the NHL and he's the kind of player with his skill who could probably make an impact right away.

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Old
06-30-2013, 04:01 AM
  #175
Horvat2Virtanen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iFan View Post
Who would center their top line? So yeah I doubt they'd even think about it.
Good point. Didn't think that one through

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