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Cory Schneider is in play for Trade Discussion - Part II

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Old
06-30-2013, 09:15 AM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
And then you're stuck with a guy who may not want to be in Van for long term (family etc) and who you've just had a tumultuous relationship with the past year (backed CS as the #1, multiple public attempts to trade). Not to mention someone on the back end of their career.


That in itself is a risk.

Of course. There's a the crowd that is thinking of this strictly in terms of assets. Then there's the group that is factoring in everything that has transpired and weighting it. Neither side will be able to convince the other.

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06-30-2013, 09:16 AM
  #202
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Wow has this ever soured people on Gillis.

To me, there will be a certain tipping point, but I'm not there yet. Wait and see approach.
This is just one thing. I think serious questions have to be asked.

Hes made some good moves. Hes made some not so good moves. For a while AV could be the object of their "affections" but he now out of the picture so MG is front and center.

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06-30-2013, 09:19 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
And then you're stuck with a guy who may not want to be in Van for long term (family etc) and who you've just had a tumultuous relationship with the past year (backed CS as the #1, multiple public attempts to trade). Not to mention someone on the back end of their career.


That in itself is a risk.
The risks are certainly evident, I won't deny. But the possibility of having Gagner/Klefbom, Nichushkin and whatever else we do with our haul makes it palatable. People talk about retooling on the fly. Well, get ready because we may be flying.

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06-30-2013, 09:21 AM
  #204
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Of course. There's a the crowd that is thinking of this strictly in terms of assets. Then there's the group that is factoring in everything that has transpired and weighting it. Neither side will be able to convince the other.

The problem with assets is we cant really take back salary. We have limited options to move people (Ballard can be bought out, Booth can be traded.)

But then if you are trading Booth instead of keeping him you are probably not getting "just" assets for him. His value is probably more to us so you "lose" assets on that.

Any assets we do get are unlikely to make an impact this year or even next, in a time when our supposed window is open and about to close with guys like the Sedins coming off contract.

Is Lu going to want to stay here if the CS trade doesnt really improve the team?

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06-30-2013, 09:24 AM
  #205
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The risks are certainly evident, I won't deny. But the possibility of having Gagner/Klefbom, Nichushkin and whatever else we do with our haul makes it palatable. People talk about retooling on the fly. Well, get ready because we may be flying.
Of those 3 Gagner is the most immediately impactful. But we are then taking on his Salary. So how do we get back down?

Its a hail mary to hope that a 7th overall pick if we even get that will be able to make a meaningful impact this year or even next at which time we have to deal with the Sedins and quite possibly a Luongo wanting out.

I think the idea behind retooling on the fly is great but in general I think its based on getting rid or your older/on-the-backend-of-career guys and not the guys entering their prime.

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06-30-2013, 09:28 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
This is just one thing. I think serious questions have to be asked.

Hes made some good moves. Hes made some not so good moves. For a while AV could be the object of their "affections" but he now out of the picture so MG is front and center.

Are you saying you are of the referenced group?

On balance, he's still made far more good moves than bad. It's not close for me. However, this situation, depending on how it shakes down, could definitely impact things.

What questions need to be asked?


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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
The risks are certainly evident, I won't deny. But the possibility of having Gagner/Klefbom, Nichushkin and whatever else we do with our haul makes it palatable. People talk about retooling on the fly. Well, get ready because we may be flying.

See, I think there's a certain push by some to see big moves. To acquire new talent, regardless of what goes out the door. I get it. It's a rush. New shiny objects seem better than old worn out objects. But it's not always so. The T&R crowd is fixated on change. Like a drug. Seldom is that change weighted properly. Sometimes it's enough for some that there is change, so that new pieces can be fawned over. I imagine that's what PHI fans feel like half the time. But change in itself doesn't mean anything. Change does not equate to improvement.

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06-30-2013, 09:30 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
The problem with assets is we cant really take back salary. We have limited options to move people (Ballard can be bought out, Booth can be traded.)

But then if you are trading Booth instead of keeping him you are probably not getting "just" assets for him. His value is probably more to us so you "lose" assets on that.

Any assets we do get are unlikely to make an impact this year or even next, in a time when our supposed window is open and about to close with guys like the Sedins coming off contract.

Is Lu going to want to stay here if the CS trade doesnt really improve the team?
If Calgary is game, I would package Booth and our first for Cammalleri. Yes, we lose an asset but by gaining Edmonton's second, the drop is barely noticeable. Ballard is likely bought out, as I suspect the Aquilinis will eventually suck up on that. All the players I mentioned will be in the NHL next - the benefits of a deep draft.

Sedin - Sedin - Kassian
Cammalleri - Gagner - Kesler
Nichushkin - Schroeder - Burrows
Higgins - Lapiere - Hansen

Edler - Garrison
Hamhuis - Bieksa
Corrado - Tanev

Luongo
Lack

I say that improves that team, considerably.

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06-30-2013, 09:32 AM
  #208
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No, we are not sure. Or at least some of us aren't. Trading Schneider is still to my mind, losing the better player.
The question should be whether the loss of Schneider is offset by retaining Luongo and acquiring someone like Ganger + Nichuskin/Monahan/Lindholm. I would say it probably is. The other two factors are the emergence of our two Swedish goalies — what are the Canucks' projections for them? If they're reasonably certain one of them will become a starting goalie then this team can afford to gamble with Luongo possibly wanting out in a few years.

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06-30-2013, 09:32 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
If Calgary is game, I would package Booth and our first for Cammalleri. Yes, we lose an asset but by gaining Edmonton's second, the drop is barely noticeable. Ballard is likely bought out, as I suspect the Aquilinis will eventually suck up on that. All the players I mentioned will be in the NHL next - the benefits of a deep draft.

Sedin - Sedin - Kassian
Cammalleri - Gagner - Kesler
Nichushkin - Schroeder - Burrows
Higgins - Lapiere - Hansen

Edler - Garrison
Hamhuis - Bieksa
Corrado - Tanev

Luongo
Lack

I say that improves that team, considerably.
Adding two small, non-physical players to our top 6? Torts will love that. One of the first impressions of our team was that it wasn't "stiff" enough, this only compounds it.

That bottom pairing is pretty sketchy as well.

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06-30-2013, 09:34 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
The problem with assets is we cant really take back salary. We have limited options to move people (Ballard can be bought out, Booth can be traded.)

But then if you are trading Booth instead of keeping him you are probably not getting "just" assets for him. His value is probably more to us so you "lose" assets on that.

Any assets we do get are unlikely to make an impact this year or even next, in a time when our supposed window is open and about to close with guys like the Sedins coming off contract.

Is Lu going to want to stay here if the CS trade doesnt really improve the team?

Agreed on the Booth front, and in the general sentiment.

I'm one to think Luongo has checked out of VAN. Does he even care if the roster is strong if FLA was his prime destination? I doubt it's a factor.

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06-30-2013, 09:37 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
See, I think there's a certain push by some to see big moves. To acquire new talent, regardless of what goes out the door. I get it. It's a rush. New shiny objects seem better than old worn out objects. But it's not always so. The T&R crowd is fixated on change. Like a drug. Seldom is that change weighted properly. Sometimes it's enough for some that there is change, so that new pieces can be fawned over. I imagine that's what PHI fans feel like half the time. But change in itself doesn't mean anything. Change does not equate to improvement.
I am not advocating change for change's sake, nor a particular high even if I concede there is a certain exhilaration about it. My stance would be different if the alternative to Schneider was say, an unproven Lack. However, we are defaulting back to Luongo, who despite his bumps and bruises, remains a top tier goaltender for the foreseeable short-term future - four years being the baseline. I suppose, the division can be summarized on each of our individual evaluation of Luongo. I believe fences can be mended and he will be reinvigorated under a new coach with a new roster, relatively speaking. Those seeing otherwise are unsurprising going to bemoan moving Schneider.

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06-30-2013, 09:41 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
The question should be whether the loss of Schneider is offset by retaining Luongo and acquiring someone like Ganger + Nichuskin/Monahan/Lindholm. I would say it probably is. The other two factors are the emergence of our two Swedish goalies what are the Canucks' projections for them? If they're reasonably certain one of them will become a starting goalie then this team can afford to gamble with Luongo possibly wanting out in a few years.

To me, that's still looking at this from strictly an asset swap perspective. If we judge Luongo and Schneider to be relatively equal, giving the CS the edge, then yes, the difference could be made up by the added pieces. That was not in question. What is in question is what is Luongo to us right now and moving forward? And what was Schneider slated to be?

If the belief from management in Luongo was shaken due to the emergence of Schneider, how do they go back to him as a prime option? That question will always loom over the team now. If they had just moved Schneider before he supplanted Luongo, no one would doubt that an asset only assertion is the only one worth making. Now though, after everything that has gone on? I think a strict asset assertion falls well short of taking into account all the factors to this situation.

If Gillis decided to deal both goalies, and follow the cheap goalie model of CHI or DET, then it would make more sense. Then, as a going concern, we would come to expect goalie turnover and doubt in net. But after anointing a long-term, true #1 solution, how does Gillis switch gears so quickly?

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06-30-2013, 09:41 AM
  #213
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When the alternative is buyout Luongo and get nothing? Yes.
Buying out Lu gets us some cap space and some clarity. Keeping Lu with the new CBA means we are carrying his cap hit after he retires. Unless the going price for Schneider is huge, which it is not, I'll stick with CS.

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06-30-2013, 09:42 AM
  #214
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Wow has this ever soured people on Gillis.

To me, there will be a certain tipping point, but I'm not there yet. Wait and see approach.
ill sour on gillis when it concludes. until then, nothing's actually happened

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06-30-2013, 09:46 AM
  #215
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Adding two small, non-physical players to our top 6? Torts will love that. One of the first impressions of our team was that it wasn't "stiff" enough, this only compounds it.

That bottom pairing is pretty sketchy as well.
Physicality is vastly overstated. Kassian is our Bickell, otherwise we differ sparingly from Chicago. Tortorella coached a highly skilled and offensive team. Coincidentally, that was the one he led to a cup. Cammalleri's playoff resume speaks for itself.

How? We have two third tweeners playing on the fourth line. That amount of depth would be the envy of near every team in the league. Compare ours to the two finalists

Nichushkin - Schroeder - Burrows
Higgins - Lapiere - Hansen

Kruger - Bolland - Frolik
Saad - Shaw - Stalberg

Paille - Kelly - Seguin
Soderburg - Peverley - Thornton
----------

Burrows is the best player on a proven merit. However, in terms of obvious skill, you could argue Seguin with minimal effort. Nichushkin is a question mark, but otherwise none of those players match Higgins or Hansen, Bolland being the only debatable exception. Therefore, I do not see how that bottom six is remotely sketchy.

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06-30-2013, 09:48 AM
  #216
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I am not advocating change for change's sake, nor a particular high even if I concede there is a certain exhilaration about it. My stance would be different if the alternative to Schneider was say, an unproven Lack. However, we are defaulting back to Luongo, who despite his bumps and bruises, remains a top tier goaltender for the foreseeable short-term future - four years being the baseline. I suppose, the division can be summarized on each of our individual evaluation of Luongo. I believe fences can be mended and he will be reinvigorated under a new coach with a new roster, relatively speaking. Those seeing otherwise are unsurprising going to bemoan moving Schneider.

I think my impression of this has come from seeing certain individuals become so prolific on the T&R boards these past few days.

There is defaulting to a goalie in this situation. To quote MS, it's pure "lame duck" perfunctory. This city will torch Luongo regardless of his best intentions, or Gillis's own. He will always have that CS ghost looming over his head. Regardless of mended fences, or the _appearance_ of, as that alone can be deceiving. The raw emotion shown by Luongo at the deadline tells me all I need to know on his mindset. He wants gone. If it's one year, or more. Eventually, the juice will no longer be worth the squeeze for him here. But of course, that's IMO. Like I said, neither side will be able to convince the other.

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06-30-2013, 09:50 AM
  #217
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ill sour on gillis when it concludes. until then, nothing's actually happened

When the goalie drama as a whole concludes? Or when CS is traded?

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06-30-2013, 09:50 AM
  #218
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ill sour on gillis when it concludes. until then, nothing's actually happened
For me this is going to be Gillis' defining moment...he can't get this wrong. If he trades Schneider or Edler, or any key piece of this team, he HAS to get extreme value back....he can't be moving sideways. I used to have complete faith in Gillis, but he's started to lose me...he really seems to be working out of desperation here, and that's not the best place to be making deals from...I'm hoping he can work some magic, but I'm not convinced he's got much left in his bag of tricks. If he fouls today up I'll probably be on the "Fire Gillis" bandwagon.

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06-30-2013, 09:55 AM
  #219
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Physicality is vastly overstated. Kassian is our Bickell, otherwise we differ sparingly from Chicago. Tortorella coached a highly skilled and offensive team. Coincidentally, that was the one he led to a cup. Cammalleri's playoff resume speaks for itself.

How? We have two third tweeners playing on the fourth line. That amount of depth would be the envy of near every team in the league. Compare ours to the two finalists

Nichushkin - Schroeder - Burrows
Higgins - Lapiere - Hansen

Kruger - Bolland - Frolik
Saad - Shaw - Stalberg

Paille - Kelly - Seguin
Soderburg - Peverley - Thornton
----------

Burrows is the best player on a proven merit. However, in terms of obvious skill, you could argue Seguin with minimal effort. Nichushkin is a question mark, but otherwise none of those players match Higgins or Hansen, Bolland being the only debatable exception. Therefore, I do not see how that bottom six is remotely sketchy.
No, the bottom defense pairing is sketchy.

But we'll disagree about the physicality aspect...that top 6 is softer than Texas butter.

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06-30-2013, 09:55 AM
  #220
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For me this is going to be Gillis' defining moment...he can't get this wrong. If he trades Schneider or Edler, or any key piece of this team, he HAS to get extreme value back....he can't be moving sideways. I used to have complete faith in Gillis, but he's started to lose me...he really seems to be working out of desperation here, and that's not the best place to be making deals from...I'm hoping he can work some magic, but I'm not convinced he's got much left in his bag of tricks. If he fouls today up I'll probably be on the "Fire Gillis" bandwagon.
Of the few things we all may be unanimous on. This would be it.

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06-30-2013, 10:02 AM
  #221
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When the goalie drama as a whole concludes? Or when CS is traded?
whenever the dust has settled, i'll judge. im open to all sorts of solutions but they'd better be fantastic

when i said "i'll sour on" i meant i'll be willing to condemn him if the turnout is poor, not that its a necessity

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06-30-2013, 10:07 AM
  #222
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whenever the dust has settled, i'll judge. im open to all sorts of solutions but they'd better be fantastic

when i said "i'll sour on" i meant i'll be willing to condemn him if the turnout is poor, not that its a necessity

Oh, I see. Would seem kinda weird to turn on him just due to time passing. lol.

I'm less open to certain solutions. Specifically when they involve Schneider or Edler. Low event is my hope for today. Barring a Luongo trade of course.

Time to assume the fetal position.

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06-30-2013, 10:10 AM
  #223
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i try to keep an open mind but i completely agree with you. i dont want them to go - i like the players and i like the people and i dont like breaking sentimental attachments for sidegrades

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06-30-2013, 10:11 AM
  #224
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If schneider can get 7th + top prospect, wtf can edler get, has to be more no?

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06-30-2013, 10:14 AM
  #225
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i try to keep an open mind but i completely agree with you. i dont want them to go - i like the players and i like the people and i dont like breaking sentimental attachments for sidegrades

My fear is a "sidegrade" is optimistic when you deal players of this calibre. Aside from sentiment, if we view these types as #1s at their respective position, then that makes both elite assets. Those types seldom get moved with an appropriate compensation coming back.

The precedent is a bit haunting at the moment. Lots of ways for it to go bad when you deal assets that good. But I guess, we'll know when we know.

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