It is a threat, he flatly said may all you suffer a tragedy if you disagree with him. Not only is that ridiculous - its malicious, and as Smokey pointed out, against the rules. You can post like an idiot, talk like an idiot, but when you begin making comments like that.......you cross the line that HF sets for us to follow. Hey, its not our boards.....lets respect the way the owners (and through them - moderators) want to run them.
As for the discussion, since when has responsibility for one's actions become so unimportant in our society? I realize that whether or not you "intended" to do something would weigh easier in somone's heart......but in the eyes of the law, it is the action and its consequences that get judged....and rightfully so. Otherwise, we would live in sheer chaos. "Don't worry honey, fire the rifle into the crowd. Your not trying to kill anyone - just learn to hit moving targets."
Get Real...some people have been closer to the Justice system thsn others and some have been particularly close to a situation just like this. I really think some people on this board should realize what prison does to good people. It doesn't rehabilitate, it makes people bitter and makes them feel they were shorted a little. Anyways, I do believe a persons character and the situation at hand should come into play when considering sentencing for an individuals crime. Dany Heatley drove recklessly that night and it resulted in his friend and teammates death and it was tragic for everyone involved. So lets make it a little tougher on the Snyders by sending a good family friend away for a crime he didn't intend to commit...then their loss is doubled. Society as a whole was a small scale victim here...so I couldn't care less about "our fair laws" right now. I guess to sum it up...I think there are good people and bad people. Heatley may have been a menace on that night but there are much worse menaces prowling playgrounds and parks, selling crack and murdering people with intent...and people just like you and me that parole them and give them a second chance...as far as my comments being threats go, the last time I checked I wasn't psychic so I can't really see where you're coming from there. Maybe you could elaborate for me.
It is a threat, he flatly said may all you suffer a tragedy if you disagree with him. Not only is that ridiculous - its malicious, and as Smokey pointed out, against the rules. You can post like an idiot, talk like an idiot, but when you begin making comments like that.......you cross the line that HF sets for us to follow. Hey, its not our boards.....lets respect the way the owners (and through them - moderators) want to run them.
As for the discussion, since when has responsibility for one's actions become so unimportant in our society? I realize that whether or not you "intended" to do something would weigh easier in somone's heart......but in the eyes of the law, it is the action and its consequences that get judged....and rightfully so. Otherwise, we would live in sheer chaos. "Don't worry honey, fire the rifle into the crowd. Your not trying to kill anyone - just learn to hit moving targets."
So basically you're calling me an idiot? Is that not a personal attack? While we're at it let's compare Heatley's tragic ACCIDENT to someone firing a gun into a crowd intentionaly. There's just a little difference there or do you even see it?? I don't wanna use the H word but...
Well, since we're on 'intent', I don't believe Thug-tuzzi 'intended' to almost paralyze Moore. He 'intended' to punch him. He 'intended' to exact his own revenge for Naslund. But he didn't 'intend' to nearly murder the man.
And Thug Bertuzzi apologized, so we should all just forgive him, right?
Dany Heatley drove recklessly that night and it resulted in his friend and teammates death and it was tragic for everyone involved. So lets make it a little tougher on the Snyders by sending a good family friend away for a crime he didn't intend to commit...then their loss is doubled.
And if Heatley were not a friend of the family, should we even consider their relationship? How is Heatley's relationship with Snyder's family even a factor in punishment? We shouldn't punish Heatley because that would cause the Snyder's more pain? How is that even a factor?
And if Heatley were Joe Schmoe, should we give him the same 150 date tour or throw the book at him because he can't afford an attorney and because Ma Snyder hates him? That's hypocritical.
If the law says: you kill someone in an auto accident (please re-read that word) then your punishment is _______. Then that punishment should be the same for EVERYONE. If I were doing 80 in a 35, spun out and killed my best friend I would do time. It would be called Vehicular Manslaughter. But because Heatley is a star and he apologized to the family and they were best buddies, we gotta cut him some slack? Sorry... not buying that.
Is the community better off for the speeches? Yes. But why can't I get the same treatment under the law?
His examples are not far off base. He never intended to accuse either family of having or being members of an organization known for murdering people simply because of the color of their skin, or the nation of their parents birth. But the point is the same. If we let the victims family's POV be a factor in EVERY case, then you run into a situation where the victim (using the Heatley/Snyder case) is friends with someone the family hates (for whatever reason) and the family will scream for that hated friend to get life... or death if they live in Texas. Is the court supposed to say, "Yeah... that is pretty much what we will do, just because you feel so adamantly about it."?
Folks I can see what you're saying here but the bottom line is...why make the Snyders suffer by sending someone else close to them away. Situations are different in every case, that's why I say using precedents although obviously necessary in some instances is unfair...and I'm not talking disallowed goal unfair. The courts have to take a lot of things into consideration that they often don't. One of the things I believe the courts should consider is...How can we make this tragedy a learning experience for Dany Heatley and others who may do the same thing someday. Jail is not a deterrant, nor is it a rehabilitaion tool I'd endorse. IMO, save the jails for the real dangers in our society and let those who can make a difference for the better do so. Oh and the humblest of apologies to anyone I may have offended, it was not my intention. Nor was it my intention to threaten anyone, I guess maybe it was something I could've worded a little differently...again sorry, I know we're all good folk with differing opinions and I do respect all of those opinions...but there were a few corny examples thrown out there.
Well, since we're on 'intent', I don't believe Thug-tuzzi 'intended' to almost paralyze Moore. He 'intended' to punch him. He 'intended' to exact his own revenge for Naslund. But he didn't 'intend' to nearly murder the man.
And Thug Bertuzzi apologized, so we should all just forgive him, right?
I don't think Bertuzzi would really care either way, but I've been thru this so I wouldn't touch those examples with a 10 foot pole.
So basically you're calling me an idiot? Is that not a personal attack? While we're at it let's compare Heatley's tragic ACCIDENT to someone firing a gun into a crowd intentionaly. There's just a little difference there or do you even see it?? I don't wanna use the H word but...
This is where I can nail you. Did Heatly not intentionally drive his care 55 mph over the speed limit on a dangerous road? Yes, he did. So what is the difference of me firing a gun into a crowd intentionally? Nothing. There are different levels of intent, but it all boils down to responsibility. If you do something stupid, you have to pay for it, otherwise there would be sheer chaos in ths world. Your ideaology simply doesn't work, and it never will work.
As for the idiot comment - it had nothing to do with you. I was simply speaking about any poster in general. Sorry if it appeared that I meant you specifically.
This is where I can nail you. Did Heatly not intentionally drive his care 55 mph over the speed limit on a dangerous road? Yes, he did. So what is the difference of me firing a gun into a crowd intentionally? Nothing. There are different levels of intent, but it all boils down to responsibility. If you do something stupid, you have to pay for it, otherwise there would be sheer chaos in ths world. Your ideaology simply doesn't work, and it never will work.
As for the idiot comment - it had nothing to do with you. I was simply speaking about any poster in general. Sorry if it appeared that I meant you specifically.
I know a lot of people drive fast and don't get killed...but you'd have to at least be blind not to hit someone firing a gun into a crowd...the consequences of driving fast can't be compared to firing a gun into a crowd. It's basically like saying speeding is equivalent to shooting someone.
If you do something stupid, you have to pay for it, otherwise there would be sheer chaos in ths world.
But he did pay for it, Enoch. He had lawyers to pay, scrap bills to pay for the wrecker that hauled away the mess, his own hospital bills (unless the Thrashers picked that up in the form of medical coverage), he had to buy a new car, if he was a class guy he covered any bills incurred by Snyder's family with regard to the incident, he missed most of the season (all of it? I forget), all that media attention that he wasn't due to his on ice skilz, and he had to do 150 speeches about the dangers of speeding and wreckless behavior. Then on top of that Vokoun had to throw it in his face after being called a &%$#!@% Czech... in the heat of the moment... and granted a return "f-bomb Canadian" would have been more than substantial... But who's keeping score?
I know a lot of people drive fast and don't get killed...but you'd have to at least be blind not to hit someone firing a gun into a crowd...the consequences of driving fast can't be compared to firing a gun into a crowd. It's basically like saying speeding is equivalent to shooting someone.
Isn't though, when the outcome is someone died?
Death is death. Murder is murder. Either you meant to fire the gun in the crowd or you didn't. It's all about intent, right?
Death is death. Murder is murder. Either you meant to fire the gun in the crowd or you didn't. It's all about intent, right?
There's a reason there's different degrees of murder, manslaughter etc...2 Scenarios ok?
scenario #1 My buddy and I are driving around in my new Ferrarri and we're seeing how it handles and takes turns and we're punching it and brakeburning and having a blast, laughing our ***** off, not hurting anybody in our minds...we feel we're excellent drivers. Then we crash and my buddy is dead...we never saw it coming, both of us were having so much fun.
scenario #2 My buddy and I are screwing around with a gun and decide we'll fire into a group of people. We kill someone...OBVIOUSLY...you'd have to be crazy to think there's no difference in those two scenarios.
I'm glad Heatley had the Lawyers to fight for him and the money to pay them well to do it because many people get hooked up by the Justice system and lose everything trying to fight it. I'm not talking about getting away with murder...I'm talking about being judged by people who weren't in the situation based on laws that don't fit the situation.
There's a reason there's different degrees of murder, manslaughter etc...2 Scenarios ok?
scenario #1 My buddy and I are driving around in my new Ferrarri and we're seeing how it handles and takes turns and we're punching it and brakeburning and having a blast, laughing our ***** off, not hurting anybody in our minds...we feel we're excellent drivers. Then we crash and my buddy is dead...we never saw it coming, both of us were having so much fun.
scenario #2 My buddy and I are screwing around with a gun and decide we'll fire into a group of people. We kill someone...OBVIOUSLY...you'd have to be crazy to think there's no difference in those two scenarios.
I'm glad Heatley had the Lawyers to fight for him and the money to pay them well to do it because many people get hooked up by the Justice system and lose everything trying to fight it. I'm not talking about getting away with murder...I'm talking about being judged by people who weren't in the situation based on laws that don't fit the situation.
But he did pay for it, Enoch. He had lawyers to pay, scrap bills to pay for the wrecker that hauled away the mess, his own hospital bills (unless the Thrashers picked that up in the form of medical coverage), he had to buy a new car, if he was a class guy he covered any bills incurred by Snyder's family with regard to the incident, he missed most of the season (all of it? I forget), all that media attention that he wasn't due to his on ice skilz, and he had to do 150 speeches about the dangers of speeding and wreckless behavior. Then on top of that Vokoun had to throw it in his face after being called a &%$#!@% Czech... in the heat of the moment... and granted a return "f-bomb Canadian" would have been more than substantial... But who's keeping score?
It's not a game so I don't think anyone's keeping score, we were actually talking about people's lives and serious stuff here. Heatley has to carry this with him for the rest of his life and I know, at least he gets to have a life...but I honestly wonder if you have any idea what kind of scars this is gonna leave on him.
no, because you obviously missed the analogy between the heatley situation and the gun in the public place situation ...
a) A SPORTS CAR IS JUST LIKE A LOADED WEAPON
b) HEATLEY KILLED SOMEONE WITH HIS CAR (whether he meant to or not is irrelevent)
and I guess you missed the fact that I don't agree with the analogy and was showing you why. Yes...if you fire a gun into a crowd of people you mean to kill someone, IT'S COMMON SENSE don't make it any more complicated than it has to be. Not a lot of people fire guns into crowds of people for fun anyways. They build sportscars for a reason...they're fast and handle better. They trick many people into thinking they're better drivers than they actually are. One could actually be speeding and not feel they are in danger or being a danger to anyone.
There's a reason there's different degrees of murder, manslaughter etc...2 Scenarios ok?
scenario #1 My buddy and I are driving around in my new Ferrarri and we're seeing how it handles and takes turns and we're punching it and brakeburning and having a blast, laughing our ***** off, not hurting anybody in our minds...we feel we're excellent drivers. Then we crash and my buddy is dead...we never saw it coming, both of us were having so much fun.
scenario #2 My buddy and I are screwing around with a gun and decide we'll fire into a group of people. We kill someone...OBVIOUSLY...you'd have to be crazy to think there's no difference in those two scenarios.
Both are completely different. But my point revolved around accidentely firing the gun in the crowd... not meaning to fire the gun. That's more an accurate example. Both have caused a death, and both were unintentional.
but I honestly wonder if you have any idea what kind of scars this is gonna leave on him.
You're hinting that I don't know what it's like to lose someone? Ok... you keep thinking that.
Here's the facts: driver of car is wrecklessly speeding; passenger of car dies as a result of driver's negligence. That's manslaughter at most. That means the death was unintentional. Driver did not mean for anyone to be hurt. It's still a death by negligence. Manslaughter. That's, what, 2 years? How much time did Heatley serve? I rest my case.
and I guess you missed the fact that I don't agree with the analogy and was showing you why. Yes...if you fire a gun into a crowd of people you mean to kill someone, IT'S COMMON SENSE don't make it any more complicated than it has to be. Not a lot of people fire guns into crowds of people for fun anyways. They build sportscars for a reason...they're fast and handle better. They trick many people into thinking they're better drivers than they actually are. One could actually be speeding and not feel they are in danger or being a danger to anyone.
Its also common sense not to drive 55 mph over the SPEED LIMIT on a dangerous road. The limit is there for a reason, and when it is ignored, you have to face the consequences....whatever they may be. What you do not seem to understand in your idealogical beliefs, is that responsiblity matters more than intent. Also, you fail to understand that intent alone, does not mean much. To use my gun analagy again, who is to say I am trying to hit people. Lets say I am firing into the crowd just to scare people......and then, I kill somone. This is murder, and there is no other way to slice it. I may have intended not to hit somone, but I did. Heatley may have not intended to kill his best friend through his reckless driving, but he did. We are just fortunate he didn't hit somone else when he decided to blatantly disregard the law of the land. Once again, there are many different levels of intent, but when it comes down to it, it is basically just an excuse for your actions. You may not have set out to do something wrong, but in the end, you did.......therefore you will be punished. This is the way the law works, will always work, and must work to be an effective deterrent in our society.
Its also common sense not to drive 55 mph over the SPEED LIMIT on a dangerous road. The limit is there for a reason, and when it is ignored, you have to face the consequences....whatever they may be. What you do not seem to understand in your idealogical beliefs, is that responsiblity matters more than intent. Also, you fail to understand that intent alone, does not mean much. To use my gun analagy again, who is to say I am trying to hit people. Lets say I am firing into the crowd just to scare people......and then, I kill somone. This is murder, and there is no other way to slice it. I may have intended not to hit somone, but I did. Heatley may have not intended to kill his best friend through his reckless driving, but he did. We are just fortunate he didn't hit somone else when he decided to blatantly disregard the law of the land. Once again, there are many different levels of intent, but when it comes down to it, it is basically just an excuse for your actions. You may not have set out to do something wrong, but in the end, you did.......therefore you will be punished. This is the way the law works, will always work, and must work to be an effective deterrent in our society.
Maybe its regional but where i live its hard to equate guns with cars. Both can be deadly but i am sure one would suffer a harsher penalty for firing into a crowd than acting recklessly behind the wheel of a car. Perhaps in Mike Doss' case though he can go around explaining the dangers of getting hammered and firing shots on Memorial day. I am not here to diminish Heatley's act, it was extremely irresponsible. I am willing to say many people drive over the speed limit and you will pay a price but not considered a social deviant. If you fire guns into crowd's you will be considered a social deviant and be punished to the furthest extent of the law. With reckless driving the punishment will be in a wider range depending on the circumstances. The judge decided heatley's debt to society could be better paid through talking to children. I agree. If Enoch, Joe Strummer and quartermaster fire shots into crowds , well children will probably not want you coming in to speak to them- you are social deviants and your debt to society will be best served behind bars.
I'm not going to get into the guns/cars argument other than to say a car can be viewed as a deadly weapon too, and it's misuse, which is readily apparent in Heatley's case, can bring about comparisons to firearms.
With regards to intent, here is another matter I think should be interjected into the conversation. Intent is extremely difficult to prove. It's this difficulty that keeps the National Enquirer and other trash magazines insulated from most accusations of libel. Under the strict definintion of libel, it is merely "A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation." But the Supreme Court, in New York Times Company v. Sullivan, felt that to actual receive financial recompense for libel, one had to prove that the statement was made with actual malice. It is easy to prove libel but nearly impossible to prove intent. As such, cases of libel are dismissed with incredible frequency.
If you carry this over into every criminal matter, many guilty people will avoid justice because the state will not be able to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that there was intent. This is the pandora's box I was speaking of earlier.
the entire heatley incident was a tragedy for all involved...many will choose to hold it against heatley forever and i can understand that...however,i just think it was an awful,tragic accident for everyone...one that happens everyday somewhere in the country to countless kids..the only difference is that heatley was famous and many people will never forgive it.....like many on here i'm sure,i lost my two best friends from high school in stupid,thoughtless drinking related car wrecks..and only luck kept me from being in heatley's shoes or dead myself 100 times when i was a teenager
personally,i believe heatley has paid and is paying the price...having killed his best friend is something that he will carry around with him for the rest of his life,long after any fleeting hockey fame is gone...a punishment far worse than any 6 month halfway house jailtime....so i can forgive heatley as snyder's parents did,without demanding more "justice" for a stupid,youth related accident,no matter how ridiculously dumb it was...
Maybe its regional but where i live its hard to equate guns with cars. Both can be deadly but i am sure one would suffer a harsher penalty for firing into a crowd than acting recklessly behind the wheel of a car. Perhaps in Mike Doss' case though he can go around explaining the dangers of getting hammered and firing shots on Memorial day. I am not here to diminish Heatley's act, it was extremely irresponsible. I am willing to say many people drive over the speed limit and you will pay a price but not considered a social deviant. If you fire guns into crowd's you will be considered a social deviant and be punished to the furthest extent of the law. With reckless driving the punishment will be in a wider range depending on the circumstances. The judge decided heatley's debt to society could be better paid through talking to children. I agree. If Enoch, Joe Strummer and quartermaster fire shots into crowds , well children will probably not want you coming in to speak to them- you are social deviants and your debt to society will be best served behind bars.
Thanks...It just seems much more sensible to make something positive happen from this. Why send him to jail when obviosly no one involved wants him there. That's what gets me about people...they have no connection to this but they wanna fry Heatley when Snyder's own parents don't.
Thanks...It just seems much more sensible to make something positive happen from this. Why send him to jail when obviosly no one involved wants him there. That's what gets me about people...they have no connection to this but they wanna fry Heatley when Snyder's own parents don't.
Because he did something extremely careless, wreckless and stupid with grave consiquences not just to himself but to others as well. Snyder and Heatley may have been the only one's injuried due to luck, but others were at danager.
I can't understand you wanting to just slap him on the wrist tell him he's a bad boy make few speaches and send him on his way.
You want to send a message to the kids? What sends a bigger message a "Hockey player has to serve time" newspaper headline or him coming to your school to talk about the dangers of speeding? I'm betting on the former.
Because he did something extremely careless, wreckless and stupid with grave consiquences not just to himself but to others as well. Snyder and Heatley may have been the only one's injuried due to luck, but others were at danager.
I can't understand you wanting to just slap him on the wrist tell him he's a bad boy make few speaches and send him on his way.
You want to send a message to the kids? What sends a bigger message a "Hockey player has to serve time" newspaper headline or him coming to your school to talk about the dangers of speeding? I'm betting on the former.
Nope....I'll again stand by my comment that jails should be used to house individuals who are a menace to society. I can't say an isolated incident involving reckless driving meets my criteria. Just a difference of opinion but I've been there so I can tell you, jail was the last thing on my mind when i did what I did and it wouldn't have been a deterrant till I was actually there...as far as public speaking goes, Heatley would do the world much more good by letting these kids know what being a careless leadfoot can get you. Try to convince me till your blue in the face buddy but I've been there and I know how it feels to have people give up on you and lock you away...I'm not looking to get a sympathy vote, I just know firsthand what jail does to people who have no business being there and I know how hard it is for people who don't have adequate resources to fight the "justice" system.
