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Carolina Hurricanes select C Elias Lindholm at #5

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07-15-2013, 05:39 PM
  #326
bleedgreen
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Originally Posted by Scorvo View Post
People said the same crap about Crosby when he came in(whiner, immature, diver, "I wouldn't take him on my team) crap, but I'm pretty sure most GMs would be very happy to land Skinner. The majority of people that would be willing to trade him either want to trade any player when they slip or they want a true number 1 defenseman, which are very hard to come by and would cost a talent like Skinner.

And by the way, it was ALL Barry's fault that Stamkos stunk at the beginning of his rookie year. Yes his numbers did go up later in the season. Basically right when Melrose was fired.
crosby was a 100 pt scorer from essentially his first year. i said right off the bat he was an exception. he was whiny and immature but he was such a dominant nhl payer from day one, it was justified. its a rare thing.

no. it wasnt barrys fault. he was told to play him, he said he wasnt ready. tocchet sat the kid, and weaned him in. he was allowed a different approach with the kid from day one. melrose was told to throw the kid to the wolves, tocchet was allowed to shelter him in and bring him slower.

i agree most gm's would still want him, and that he will hopefully come out of it. fans definitely have turned on him across the league, though of course some still see his value. it used to be all love for him, its maybe 50-50 now.


Last edited by bleedgreen: 07-15-2013 at 05:49 PM.
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07-15-2013, 05:40 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
Bleedgreen is a HUGE Skinner supporter.

Just so everyone is clear.
i am. i hope your being sarcastic. i dont want him traded at all. i think hes the best talent we've drafted possibly ever.

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07-15-2013, 05:43 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by bleedgreen View Post
i am. i hope your being sarcastic. i dont want him traded at all. i think hes the best talent we've drafted possibly ever.
I'm not(), and I agree with you that Skinner is an incredible talent. Slick hands great shot, but above all else that skating.

I've said in the past that Skinner is the hill they should die on. And it is. If we manage to replace Harrison with Hainsey, how would a Skinner for <<Random Defender>> looked if done 6 months ago?

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07-15-2013, 05:44 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Roboturner913 View Post
Lindholm strikes me as much more ready for the NHL than Skinner was. I don't really think they are analagous situations.
i dont think they are the same either. my original point was the way we do it all together, people are jumping on me because of the skinner point. ive already said i think lindholm is better prospect for being ready, i just want him to earn it, and imo i would prefer he wait a year. my original point was far more against jr and his inking people into the lineup not only before camp even starts - but months before they even skate.

my intent wasnt a skinner discussion at all.

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07-15-2013, 05:46 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
I'm not(), and I agree with you that Skinner is an incredible talent. Slick hands great shot, but above all else that skating.

I've said in the past that Skinner is the hill they should die on. And it is. If we manage to replace Harrison with Hainsey, how would a Skinner for <<Random Defender>> looked if done 6 months ago?
i meant to say i hope you arent being sarcastic, i typed too fast. my bad.

talking to 5 people at once gets hectic.

im glad you picked up on that, i really dig skinner. most unique player i think ive seen.

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07-15-2013, 05:52 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by rocky7 View Post
good post. while yes there have been some players make an impact quickly, there have been many who have not been able to live up to the expectations and pressure as a kid and have struggled in their careers for years sometimes, seemingly unnoticed and shouldering all the blame for what really amounts to misuse early on. a big issue is confidence and when it takes a big hit, it's very hard to get back.
thanks. the confidence is a huge thing, and youre right a lot of guys struggle to get it back.

luckily skinner does not lack for confidence. not yet anyway.

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07-15-2013, 06:30 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by bleedgreen View Post
thanks. the confidence is a huge thing, and youre right a lot of guys struggle to get it back.

luckily skinner does not lack for confidence. not yet anyway.
That's the important issue, though, confidence. He doesn't lack it, so therefore the "development" hasnt hurt him in the least.

A return to the OHL wouldn't have done squat for Skinner. They wouldn't have impressed upon him the need for him to develop his defensive game, because Kitchener is in no way beholden to the Canes. In all likelihood, Skinner would have had free reign to do whatever he wanted in all aspects of his game.

In a perfect world, it may have been great to have Skinner play in the AHL for a while, where the coaching staff is accountable to the big club, but that wasn't possible.

Skinner wasn't a whiny biatch in his rookie year at all, hell, nothing really went wrong that year for him. It's only as he encountered some semblance of adversity that he became a little more petulant. I was very adamant early on in his sophomore season that he had to cut that **** out. However, it's not something that signals a player's departure from the team, not even close.

The main thing that Skinner needs to improve upon is his overall awareness of where the opposing team's players are coming from. Keeping his head up and making the simpler play more often than not..and that's about it. These two things aren't going to be taught to the "team superstar," like he was in Kitchener.

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07-15-2013, 06:40 PM
  #333
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we agree to disagree about junior. i do think his coach wouldve challenged him, they are in it for championships. they arent there for the jeff skinner canadian tour. he wouldve been pushed to be a more complete player. to me thats not the issue, to me he wouldve grown into his body a bit more and grown up maturity wise a bit more. he wouldve been stronger, and you cant say he wouldnt have learned to be smarter as an offensive player.

i do agree ahl wouldve been a really nice option, and its what i wouldve preferred. i dont think there is any argument agsint skinner not being mature enough at the nhl level, and not smart enough to learn from his mistakes. most important of which is his repeatedly leading with his face into the middle of the ice. ahl wouldve helped with that.

i agree the petulance came out after adversity, which he never faced before. again something that wouldve probably happened in the ahl but i think it couldve happened in the ohl too. its not like people jumped out of his way at that level. he only had one dominant year, its not like he had been lighting it up for two or three prior to being drafted. he blew up in one year/playoffs. thats it. then straight to the nhl.

frankly faulk going from the ncaa's as a true freshman to the nhl scares me even more. he's handled adversity far better though.

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07-15-2013, 07:12 PM
  #334
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There are people who still think Skinner should have went back to junior? He scored 60 points as a rookie and won the Calder, for ****'s sake. You can count the number of 18 year old rookies who have done that in the history of the NHL on less than two hands.

No doubt in my mind the Canes made the right move by not sending him back. To think he would be any more mature or better at defense just by going back to juniors is a stretch at best. Sending Murphy back to do a Steve Spott coached team hasn't done squat for his development, I'm inclined to believe it'd have been similar for Skinner.

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07-15-2013, 07:36 PM
  #335
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Bleed, you bring up Skinner's attitude issues as a reason why he shouldn't have been rushed to the NHL, but there's no way to know if extra time in the OHL/AHL would have allieviated those issues.

Skinner could simply be a whiny, petulant player, regardless of the time spent developing out of the NHL

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07-15-2013, 09:14 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Bleed, you bring up Skinner's attitude issues as a reason why he shouldn't have been rushed to the NHL, but there's no way to know if extra time in the OHL/AHL would have allieviated those issues.

Skinner could simply be a whiny, petulant player, regardless of the time spent developing out of the NHL
no doubt. im not disagreeing. it certainly may have helped though. my point was about our habits in terms of developing young players in general, which many of us have long questioned. skinner is just one example, there've been plenty. i never meant to make this conversation about skinner, though i do feel the way i do about him. we have patterns in how we have dealt with our prospects. we just saw another pattern continued today - for better or for worse.

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07-15-2013, 09:18 PM
  #337
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Just saw the deal, and looks like good work from JR. Obviously there was a drop off after 4, but even compared to Reilly's deal from last year, we got pretty good value with Lindholm.

Quick guess at our forward lines after JR's comments today:

Tlusty-Staal-Semin
Ruutu-Staal-Dywer
Skinner-Lindholm-Dalpe
Welsh-Nash-Bowman
Westgarth

You could swap Dalpe and Dwyer, but it sounds like we're wanting to spread the talent about a bit more through the top 9.

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07-15-2013, 09:45 PM
  #338
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My stab at the line up:

Eric / Jordan / Semin
Tlusty / Skinner / Palushaj
Welsh / Lindholm / Ruutu
Sutter / Nash / Dwyer
Westgarth

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07-15-2013, 09:57 PM
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanginLikeaBiscuit View Post
Just saw the deal, and looks like good work from JR. Obviously there was a drop off after 4, but even compared to Reilly's deal from last year, we got pretty good value with Lindholm.

Quick guess at our forward lines after JR's comments today:

Tlusty-Staal-Semin
Ruutu-Staal-Dywer
Skinner-Lindholm-Dalpe
Welsh-Nash-Bowman
Westgarth

You could swap Dalpe and Dwyer, but it sounds like we're wanting to spread the talent about a bit more through the top 9.
I think I'd swap Dwyer and Dalpe. I don't feel confident with that much youth on one line. Even though Lindholm is supposed to be 2-way, who knows how well that will translate. I feel that Skinner-Lindholm-Dalpe could find themselves pinned in the defensive zone way too often and way too long. Dwyer should be able to help with that.

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07-15-2013, 10:28 PM
  #340
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Or, if Welsh or Bowman shows up to camp in underwhelming fashion, and JR/PK/Owners feel up to burying one in the minors...we could have:

Tlusty-Eric-Semin
Ruutu-Jordan-Dalpe
Skinner-Lindholm-Palushaj (Sink or swim, boys...)
Bowman/Welsh-Nash-Dwyer
Westgarth


Although I don't think Gritty Vet JSkinns is quite as gritty as Gritty Vet AWardo.

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07-15-2013, 10:57 PM
  #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanginLikeaBiscuit View Post
Just saw the deal, and looks like good work from JR. Obviously there was a drop off after 4, but even compared to Reilly's deal from last year, we got pretty good value with Lindholm.

Quick guess at our forward lines after JR's comments today:

Tlusty-Staal-Semin
Ruutu-Staal-Dywer
Skinner-Lindholm-Dalpe
Welsh-Nash-Bowman
Westgarth

You could swap Dalpe and Dwyer, but it sounds like we're wanting to spread the talent about a bit more through the top 9.
I think we may actually see Skinner on the third line and Lindholm playing a right wing spot. Theoretically his style meshes much better with J.Staal/Ruutu on that second line.


Tlusty-Staal-Semin
Ruutu-Staal-Lindholm
Skinner-Nash-Dwyer
Bowman-Sutter-Welsh
Westgarth

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07-15-2013, 11:50 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Novacane View Post
I think I'd swap Dwyer and Dalpe. I don't feel confident with that much youth on one line. Even though Lindholm is supposed to be 2-way, who knows how well that will translate. I feel that Skinner-Lindholm-Dalpe could find themselves pinned in the defensive zone way too often and way too long. Dwyer should be able to help with that.
Yeah, you could go either way. IIRC, Dwyer had good chemistry with J Staal earlier in the season, and could combine for a good shutdown line, being tough to play against. If you do move Dwyer down, you run the risk of being too small on the 3rd line, with Lindholm being the biggest guy. And I'm also a bit concerned about giving Dalpe a top-6 spot, but he did show solid chemistry with Skinner at the end of the season, so I don't mind placing him there. And while you're probably right about getting pinned in the defensive zone, my hope would be that line sees lesser competition, allowing Skinner to work his magic. Definitely nice to have options with good depth at center.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roboturner913 View Post
I think we may actually see Skinner on the third line and Lindholm playing a right wing spot. Theoretically his style meshes much better with J.Staal/Ruutu on that second line.


Tlusty-Staal-Semin
Ruutu-Staal-Lindholm
Skinner-Nash-Dwyer
Bowman-Sutter-Welsh
Westgarth
We certainly have options, but I'm basing my projection off JR's comments, saying he sees Lindholm at center, and specifically with Skinner.

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07-16-2013, 01:51 AM
  #343
bleedgreen
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Originally Posted by Novacane View Post
I think I'd swap Dwyer and Dalpe. I don't feel confident with that much youth on one line. Even though Lindholm is supposed to be 2-way, who knows how well that will translate. I feel that Skinner-Lindholm-Dalpe could find themselves pinned in the defensive zone way too often and way too long. Dwyer should be able to help with that.
I agree, that's what I would do too. Dwyer might make a good compliment to those two.

Looks good on my Xbox anyway.

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07-16-2013, 02:05 AM
  #344
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I believe this season will be the first time that Dalpe has to clear waivers to go down to the AHL, yes? I would imagine that is going to impact how long of a look he gets. He needs to come into camp and blow the doors off the frame.

Palushaj is another interesting option brought in to compete. With Boychuk and Nash being qualified, that's a lot of borderline NHL talent to fill the bottom lines with. Somebody is going to have to take that job. Palushaj probably has the new car smell that will help him, but the job should likely go to the player who can win it in camp.

I believe Lindholm starts the year on the 3rd line. I don't think he'll be asked to do as much as some are suspecting. I think Skinner goes back to wing if Lindholm makes the team, which is a damn near certainty in my opinion.

I would caution against Rutherford making lines and trying to use that as a carry over into what Kirk decides. He doesn't strike me as an organizational patsy. He's going to do what he wants with the players he has. Dwyer did a lot for himself last year with 8 goals in 46 games, which is a ...13-14 goal pace over a full season. Decent third line numbers perhaps.

Welsh isn't going to be on the opening night roster in my opinion. He's going to get waived. He hasn't shown enough in the AHL to beat out some of the other options. This year, more than any, we've got money invested into our success. If you're not good enough to be up here, you're going to get buried. Same with Justin Peters. We brought in a goalie for the express purpose of burying him.

Tlusty - Staal - Semin

That line isn't going to be touched. It just works. Don't mess with it.

Ruutu - Staal - Skinner

Staal and Skinner have to figure it out by pay grade alone. A lack of camp for both of them together likely had an impact. If we can get them together for a full camp to build chemistry we can make that work. Ruutu is an X factor here because his presence could make that line work much better.

Palushaj - Nash - Lindholm

Soft but defensively responsible. Palushaj and Nash had similar "breakout seasons", in the NHL last year. This line won't be counted upon for much offense, but these players need to develop.

Bowman - Sutter - Dwyer

Dalpe and Westgarth the healthy extras. Palushaj being able to play LW helps his chances at sticking on this team because of our shortage of those. Boychuk could just as easily make that slot.

One thing is for sure though, we're going to have some tough decisions to make in regards to who goes through waivers. Palushaj, Bowman, Boychuk, Dalpe, Nash?, Terry, and Welsh will have to clear to go down. I don't see anybody touching Welsh, but everybody else could easily be taken.

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07-16-2013, 06:16 AM
  #345
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Despite the large one-way contract, Welsh is still exempt from waivers. I think that means he's more likely to be sent down despite the big contract when you look at the list of waiver-eligible players in Vagrant's post.

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07-16-2013, 06:21 AM
  #346
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If Dwyer is on our second line, please stab me in my face with a fork

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07-16-2013, 06:52 AM
  #347
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Originally Posted by Sasha Cares View Post
If Dwyer is on our second line, please stab me in my face with a fork
You can play whatever semantics you want, but if Dwyer plays long side J. Staal, that's the checking line, or so I'd think?

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07-16-2013, 07:18 AM
  #348
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Our bottom six is still pansy soft and frankly not that hard to play against. ill be very disappointed if some snarl and nastiness isn't added to the forwards before camp.

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07-16-2013, 07:30 AM
  #349
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Our bottom six is still pansy soft and frankly not that hard to play against. ill be very disappointed if some snarl and nastiness isn't added to the forwards before camp.
I really want us to land someone like McGinn for Gleason if we're making a trade to make room for Hainsey. Clean player, but he can hit and capable of being damn solid offensively.

Would also give Lindholm someone with some sandpaper to work with without taking that element away from whoever Skinner ends up with.

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07-16-2013, 08:48 AM
  #350
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I really want us to land someone like McGinn for Gleason if we're making a trade to make room for Hainsey. Clean player, but he can hit and capable of being damn solid offensively.

Would also give Lindholm someone with some sandpaper to work with without taking that element away from whoever Skinner ends up with.
So in order to add some "sandpaper" to the 3rd line they should turn the top 4 D into tissue paper?

Edit: Maybe quilted paper towels is a better analogy. I don't think it would make the defense substantially worse, just softer.

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