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Winnipeg Jets select D Josh Morrissey (1/13)

View Poll Results: How do you feel about the Morrissey pick?
Love it 33 14.73%
Like it 73 32.59%
Meh 56 25.00%
Don't like it 28 12.50%
Hate it 34 15.18%
Voters: 224. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-02-2013, 11:50 AM
  #276
Gump Hasek
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Originally Posted by surge1979 View Post
I like how you make loose claims like "other scouting services had him ranked highly" and then its left to the rest of us to either accept what you've written as fact or figure out what highly means. What does "highly" mean relative to the list, Gump?
Your initial comment was...
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Originally Posted by surge1979 View Post
Also LOL @ Chevy defenders loving this pick, despite literally nobody in the hockey world, including HF Jets predicting it in their wildest dreams.
It has since been pointed out to you that others in the hockey world did indeed value him in the same general area, though for some reason you refuse to acknowledge it; the old axiom that you can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink it is apparently applicable in your case.

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07-02-2013, 11:52 AM
  #277
Hank Chinaski
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Couldn't be more wrong. Do you really think that these lists are compiled by scouts who are independent of NHL payrolls? The only one on that list who isn't on an NHL payroll that I'm aware of is Craig Button.
They sure are. McKenzie's list has input from NHL scouts, all the other services (ISS, McKeen's, Future Considerations) are made up of independent scouts who aren't employed by NHL clubs. That would be a huge conflict of interest, giving up proprietary scouting information for public consumption.

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07-02-2013, 11:56 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
They sure are. McKenzie's list has input from NHL scouts, all the other services (ISS, McKeen's, Future Considerations) are made up of independent scouts who aren't employed by NHL clubs. That would be a huge conflict of interest, giving up proprietary scouting information for public consumption.
That doesn't seem to jive with ISS's brochure:

"ISS Hockey (International Scouting Services Inc.) is the leading independent scouting and information provider on hockey player prospects aged 14 to 19. Founded in 2002, ISS scouts, evaluates, analyzes and ranks players internationally on behalf of its many clients, which include (among others):

■NHL Teams
■Hockey Canada
■Major Junior Leagues & Teams (CHL, QMJHL, OHL, WHL, USHL)
■NCAA College Teams
■European Teams & Leagues
■TSN
■THN: The Hockey News
■HockeyNow
■The Pipeline Show
■Hockey’s Future
■Sports Agencies

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07-02-2013, 12:03 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Your initial comment was...


It has since been pointed out to you that others in the hockey world did indeed value him in the same general area, though for some reason you refuse to acknowledge it; the old axiom that you can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink it is apparently applicable in your case.
Haha, I knew you'd come back with inane generalities rather than deal with direct questions posed to you. While we're throwing around abstract sayings, I think the age old question "if you're friend (i.e. Chevy) jumped off a bridge, would you jump too?" is appropriate to you. Its a rhetoical question, I already know the answer.

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07-02-2013, 12:07 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by surge1979 View Post
Haha, I knew you'd come back with inane generalities rather than deal with direct questions posed to you.
I actually did deal with the question; you just refused to acknowledge the answer.

I also think the term inane generalities is probably best defined by the making of a comment such as this one:

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Originally Posted by surge1979 View Post
Also LOL @ Chevy defenders loving this pick, despite literally nobody in the hockey world, including HF Jets predicting it in their wildest dreams.

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07-02-2013, 12:09 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by surge1979 View Post
That doesn't seem to jive with ISS's brochure:

"ISS Hockey (International Scouting Services Inc.) is the leading independent scouting and information provider on hockey player prospects aged 14 to 19. Founded in 2002, ISS scouts, evaluates, analyzes and ranks players internationally on behalf of its many clients, which include (among others):

■NHL Teams
■Hockey Canada
■Major Junior Leagues & Teams (CHL, QMJHL, OHL, WHL, USHL)
■NCAA College Teams
■European Teams & Leagues
■TSN
■THN: The Hockey News
■HockeyNow
■The Pipeline Show
■Hockey’s Future
■Sports Agencies
NHL teams might use ISS and other services to help "fill in the blanks" of players they may have only lightly scouted. I can pretty much guarantee that no full-time NHL scouts are also employed by an independent scouting publication.

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07-02-2013, 12:21 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
NHL teams might use ISS and other services to help "fill in the blanks" of players they may have only lightly scouted. I can pretty much guarantee that no full-time NHL scouts are also employed by an independent scouting publication.
Its strange that the ISS would list NHL teams as a client though. And Pronman and McKeen's scouts will have done work (and be compensated by) dozens of NHL teams.

And regardless, the list referenced CBS, TSN, ESPN, The Hockey News, Sportsnet. I will bet large bags of money that these networks do not employ scouts but rather use the Bob McKenzie method of getting a consensus ranking from various anonymous NHL scouts.

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07-02-2013, 12:29 PM
  #283
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Its strange that the ISS would list NHL teams as a client though. And Pronman and McKeen's scouts will have done work (and be compensated by) dozens of NHL teams.

And regardless, the list referenced CBS, TSN, ESPN, The Hockey News, Sportsnet. I will bet large bags of money that these networks do not employ scouts but rather use the Bob McKenzie method of getting a consensus ranking from various anonymous NHL scouts.
The consensus average ranking was 20th, with the median being 19th. That's a reach, but not a huge reach for a player that they obviously coveted.

I'm curious: who would you have selected at 13th? The two players I was hoping fell to the Jets were already off the board, alas. Given that, and having read reports on Morrissey and watched video, I'm happy with their selection. You're obviously not, which is fine, but who would you have picked?

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07-02-2013, 12:39 PM
  #284
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Heres something fun, according to this article the Jets were 24th in the league when it came to 'reaching' for players in the top-100 of this draft.

They actually had the highest swing in terms of getting players way lower than their consensus (likely due to getting Petan where they did), and on average the players they took were slotted to go almost 9 spots higher than where they got them.

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07-02-2013, 12:40 PM
  #285
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Interesting tidbit from the Rona Roundtable. Kid had a 90% average and asked for tutors because he wasn't happy with it, finished with a 95% average. Seems like he's got smarts and a drive to improve and succeed in everything. Getting more and more excited the more I hear and see about Josh.

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07-02-2013, 12:43 PM
  #286
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Interesting tidbit from the Rona Roundtable. Kid had a 90% average and asked for tutors because he wasn't happy with it, finished with a 95% average. Seems like he's got smarts and a drive to improve and succeed in everything. Getting more and more excited the more I hear and see about Josh.
The apple didn't fall far from the tree in his case; here is his father's bio...

http://www.druleshockey.com/index.ph...d=12&Itemid=16

(scroll down a bit)

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07-02-2013, 12:56 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ View Post
The consensus average ranking was 20th, with the median being 19th. That's a reach, but not a huge reach for a player that they obviously coveted.

I'm curious: who would you have selected at 13th? The two players I was hoping fell to the Jets were already off the board, alas. Given that, and having read reports on Morrissey and watched video, I'm happy with their selection. You're obviously not, which is fine, but who would you have picked?
I don't think many have any issue with Morrissey per se, or at least I don't. The issue is the perceived value of using the 13th pick on a guy that looks like he could have been had a few picks later. That's my issue, and it's not a huge one I suppose, but I think it's worth talking about.

Yes, Philly did worse by jumping the gun on Morin, but we all know Philly is ridiculous. However, a local paper suggested that Chevy is earning a reputation around the idea that he takes who he wants wherever he wants regardless of the value of the pick. I'm not sure I can get behind that.

The more I read about Morrissey the more I like the sounds of him. But it still doesn't jive with me that we "reached" a few spots to get him. This team is too talent poor to not explore adding major assets to drop down a few spots. But to answer your question, I was looking at Zadorov, Wennberg or maybe Pulock.

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07-02-2013, 01:05 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by arby18 View Post
I don't think many have any issue with Morrissey per se, or at least I don't. The issue is the perceived value of using the 13th pick on a guy that looks like he could have been had a few picks later. That's my issue, and it's not a huge one I suppose, but I think it's worth talking about.

Yes, Philly did worse by jumping the gun on Morin, but we all know Philly is ridiculous. However, a local paper suggested that Chevy is earning a reputation around the idea that he takes who he wants wherever he wants regardless of the value of the pick. I'm not sure I can get behind that.

The more I read about Morrissey the more I like the sounds of him. But it still doesn't jive with me that we "reached" a few spots to get him. This team is too talent poor to not explore adding major assets to drop down a few spots. But to answer your question, I was looking at Zadorov, Wennberg or maybe Pulock.


With all due respect, arby, I think you're making a bit of a mountain out of a mole hill here in terms of collecting an asset and reaching a few spots for Morrissey. Given the prospects available at 13, who should we have taken? and if Morrissey is a fine pick, just not at 13, where should we have taken him? and how do we even know trading back was possible? I just don't see the logic here in arguing something like this given all of the variables involved. Given the talent drop off, if you will, after 12 let's say, should every team have looked to trade back because it became a little more of a crap shoot? Generally speaking that's just not the way it works.

You say Morrissey looks like a guy that could have been had a few spots later, and also say it doesn't jive with you that we "reached" a few spots to get him... yet based on the other options, was one really much better than the other to classify him as a reach? I don't see a reach here at all, in my opinion. I think some look at these rankings put out and make far too much of a big deal about them. So we took Morrissey a few spots before the rankings, that's a big deal? These things aren't meant to be done strictly from the book.

I just don't see the argument here, nor can I see it to the extreme you do. Sure Detroit traded back a couple spots and picked up an extra asset, and I am all for assets, I am all for taking the best players available too, but I just don't see much of an issue here with who we selected, where we selected, and who and where everyone else selected 14th and on.



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07-02-2013, 01:06 PM
  #289
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Heres something fun, according to this article the Jets were 24th in the league when it came to 'reaching' for players in the top-100 of this draft.

They actually had the highest swing in terms of getting players way lower than their consensus (likely due to getting Petan where they did), and on average the players they took were slotted to go almost 9 spots higher than where they got them.
The Jets pulled 5 players from inside Button's top 66

Morrissey (15)
Petan (17)
Comrie (49)
Lodge (56)
Kostaluk (66)

...and 4 out of Pronman's top 57

Morrissey (20)
Petan (32)
Lodge (40)
Kostaluk (57)

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07-02-2013, 01:17 PM
  #290
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Interesting tidbit from the Rona Roundtable. Kid had a 90% average and asked for tutors because he wasn't happy with it, finished with a 95% average. Seems like he's got smarts and a drive to improve and succeed in everything. Getting more and more excited the more I hear and see about Josh.
Just heard the interview. The PA GM Bruno Campese mentioned in all his years in Hockey he has never met a more driven, competitive, focused kid. from the moment he gets up until he goes to bed in every facet of his life he is focsed on improvement. Bruno used the GPA angle to highlight the point as in "who isn't happy with a 90% average" in a friendly way.

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07-02-2013, 01:19 PM
  #291
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With all due respect, arby, I think you're making a bit of a mountain out of a mole hill here in terms of collecting an asset and reaching a few spots for Morrissey. Given the prospects available at 13, who should we have taken? and if Morrissey is a fine pick, just not at 13, where should we have taken him? and how do we even know trading back was possible? I just don't see the logic here in arguing something like this given all of the variables involved. Given the talent drop off, if you will, after 12 let's say, should every team have looked to trade back because it became a little more of a crap shoot? Generally speaking that's just not the way it works.

I just don't see the argument here, nor can I see it to the extreme you do. Sure Detroit traded back a couple spots and picked up an extra asset, and I am all for assets, I am all for taking the best players available too, but I just don't see much of an issue here with who we selected, where we selected, and who and where everyone else selected 14th and on.


All fair points. Who knows if he tried to move down. Perhaps I'm stuck on seeing DET win the draft (again) by adding a 2nd and still get Mantha.

But in 3 years, I've seen Chevy reach for both Scheifele and now Morrissey because their list appears to be a lot different than consensus. With Marcel Comeau still employed as the head scout, that is a concern to me, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

My issue is not with the players but with the scouting/management team. While Chevy's track record is still TBD, Comeau's isn't... It's pretty poor.

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07-02-2013, 01:22 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Rheged View Post
Heres something fun, according to this article the Jets were 24th in the league when it came to 'reaching' for players in the top-100 of this draft.

They actually had the highest swing in terms of getting players way lower than their consensus (likely due to getting Petan where they did), and on average the players they took were slotted to go almost 9 spots higher than where they got them.
Anyway to look back at recent drafts and see if there's any correlation to how teams do long term with reaches or lack there of? Meaning, if a team, by the consensus, tends to reach, do they have better or worse success with their picks and vice versa?

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07-02-2013, 01:24 PM
  #293
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All fair points. Who knows if he tried to move down. Perhaps I'm stuck on seeing DET win the draft (again) by adding a 2nd and still get Mantha.

But in 3 years, I've seen Chevy reach for both Scheifele and now Morrissey because their list appears to be a lot different than consensus. With Marcel Comeau still employed as the head scout, that is a concern to me, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

My issue is not with the players but with the scouting/management team. While Chevy's track record is still TBD, Comeau's isn't... It's pretty poor.
We have no choice but to wait and see. We have to see how these kids do long term. It's still too early for Scheif's draft class to give a fair assessment.

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07-02-2013, 01:30 PM
  #294
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With all due respect, arby, I think you're making a bit of a mountain out of a mole hill here in terms of collecting an asset and reaching a few spots for Morrissey. Given the prospects available at 13, who should we have taken? and if Morrissey is a fine pick, just not at 13, where should we have taken him? and how do we even know trading back was possible? I just don't see the logic here in arguing something like this given all of the variables involved. Given the talent drop off, if you will, after 12 let's say, should every team have looked to trade back because it became a little more of a crap shoot? Generally speaking that's just not the way it works.
In order to trade down you need a trade partner - someone who is willing to trade up to get your 13th pick.

Who was still on the board that someone would want to trade up and get?

Not to mention it's also a fairly risky strategy if the player you want is only 5-8 spots lower - someone else could see what you see in the kid and grab him as well.



Someone else mentioned Scheifele as a reach - wasn't it reported back in 2011 that someone (Canes?) were going to take him if we hadn't, no matter what his "consensus" ranking was?

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07-02-2013, 01:38 PM
  #295
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In order to trade down you need a trade partner - someone who is willing to trade up to get your 13th pick.

Who was still on the board that someone would want to trade up and get?

Not to mention it's also a fairly risky strategy if the player you want is only 5-8 spots lower - someone else could see what you see in the kid and grab him as well.



Someone else mentioned Scheifele as a reach - wasn't it reported back in 2011 that someone (Canes?) were going to take him if we hadn't, no matter what his "consensus" ranking was?
Exactly. If we wanted to move back because of all the "reaches" available, who's to say someone wanted to move forward to grab one? I mean sure it's possible, but again, so many variables come into play it's hard to get too agitated over it, to me.

Re; Scheifele. Yes, I tweeted that day what the Canes beat writer tweeted, and that was the Canes draft table let out a subtle groan when the Jets selected Scheifele at 7. The Canes were picking 12th, 5 spots away. And at that time, they as an organization needed a top 6 centerman in a big, big way.

Sometimes, it just doesn't make sense to trade back.

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07-02-2013, 01:53 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ View Post
The consensus average ranking was 20th, with the median being 19th. That's a reach, but not a huge reach for a player that they obviously coveted.

I'm curious: who would you have selected at 13th? The two players I was hoping fell to the Jets were already off the board, alas. Given that, and having read reports on Morrissey and watched video, I'm happy with their selection. You're obviously not, which is fine, but who would you have picked?
Actually, I came to the same conclusion you did. I watched highlights from his WHL season and from the U-18, and his interviews and was pleasantly surprised. I can get behind this pick. Like Arby, I felt that we could have dropped down a few spots to the 16-20 range and still acquire Morrissey or similar prospect (Wennberg, Mueller, Pulock, Mantha, Shinkaruk, Zadarov, etc). In fact, I thought the Jets had a really successful draft, especially getting Frolik, Petan, Comrie, Lodge where they did.

There were a number of posters who immediately defended the pick and Chevy, called anyone who disagreed a hater. I was mainly responding to that line of thinking.

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07-02-2013, 01:54 PM
  #297
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All fair points. Who knows if he tried to move down. Perhaps I'm stuck on seeing DET win the draft (again) by adding a 2nd and still get Mantha.

But in 3 years, I've seen Chevy reach for both Scheifele and now Morrissey because their list appears to be a lot different than consensus. With Marcel Comeau still employed as the head scout, that is a concern to me, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

My issue is not with the players but with the scouting/management team. While Chevy's track record is still TBD, Comeau's isn't... It's pretty poor.
A couple of things arby18. First off I just heard Chevy talking about the Jets being excited when Petan was still around in the 2nd round and they made some efforts to move up to get him but couldn't find any partners and were happy when he fell to them at 43. Sometimes the little moves are easier said than done and we know they were making efforts to move up to get Domi. I am ok with Morrissey at 13 and think he is in with the cluster of guys you highlighted in an earlier post but time will tell

Not an unfair post on Comeau and it would be fun to take a closer look at his body of work. There is a two part article on Comeau written by Kevin McCartney that I will need to read closer but on a quick glance one part of it stood out for me.

"It hasn't always been a very consistent re-build effort in Atlanta's front office, and that reflects in the draft bullets given to Comeau. In ten drafts to date, Comeau has only had 10 1st round and 8 2nd round selections to make. In contrast, 29 of 74 total selections (almost 40%) have come in the 6th round or later. His GM's have done him few favors and he's shown some skill in those late rounds"

I guess one thing that has to be pointed out is he now has a different boss who has given marching orders as to which type of characteristics he likes in his players and on top of that it would be good to look at what resources Marcel has been given to work with and by that I mean bigger budget, more scouts, etc etc.

It’s probably fair to say given the organizational priorities in Atlanta vs. Winnipeg Marcel spent 8 drafts in Atlanta with the wind in his face…..2 drafts in Winnipeg to transition (base picks they inherited)…….. and now one draft with the Jets where they are loading the gun with lots of bullets and the wind is clearly at his back.

Chevy didn't flip Comeau and agreed to hire Noel from the Moose.....these could either prove to be the right moves or growing pains he will need to learn from?

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07-02-2013, 02:12 PM
  #298
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A couple of things arby18. First off I just heard Chevy talking about the Jets being excited when Petan was still around in the 2nd round and they made some efforts to move up to get him but couldn't find any partners and were happy when he fell to them at 43. Sometimes the little moves are easier said than done and we know they were making efforts to move up to get Domi. I am ok with Morrissey at 13 and think he is in with the cluster of guys you highlighted in an earlier post but time will tell

Not an unfair post on Comeau and it would be fun to take a closer look at his body of work. There is a two part article on Comeau written by Kevin McCartney that I will need to read closer but on a quick glance one part of it stood out for me.

"It hasn't always been a very consistent re-build effort in Atlanta's front office, and that reflects in the draft bullets given to Comeau. In ten drafts to date, Comeau has only had 10 1st round and 8 2nd round selections to make. In contrast, 29 of 74 total selections (almost 40%) have come in the 6th round or later. His GM's have done him few favors and he's shown some skill in those late rounds"

I guess one thing that has to be pointed out is he now has a different boss who has given marching orders as to which type of characteristics he likes in his players and on top of that it would be good to look at what resources Marcel has been given to work with and by that I mean bigger budget, more scouts, etc etc.

It’s probably fair to say given the organizational priorities in Atlanta vs. Winnipeg Marcel spent 8 drafts in Atlanta with the wind in his face…..2 drafts in Winnipeg to transition (base picks they inherited)…….. and now one draft with the Jets where they are loading the gun with lots of bullets and the wind is clearly at his back.

Chevy didn't flip Comeau and agreed to hire Noel from the Moose.....these could either prove to be the right moves or growing pains he will need to learn from?
Good points. All of them.

I actually love what the Jets did overall in this draft, including the Frolik trade, as I think a lot of needs were addressed. I love that they finally broke from the mold and went for some talent over just size. They even drafted from outside North America! My only concern was the value associated with the 1st round pick, but I'm slowly getting over it as it's done and no amount of whining will change it.

I do recall ATL not having a number of mid-to-high picks as Waddell was busy running the Thrashers into the ground. But picks like Valabik, Leveille and Bourret were all 1st round busts (Valabik and Bourret 10th and 16th overall), and the 2004 draft saw nine picks but only Valabik played more than two NHL games... Blech...

And I've been told that the 2011 draft was a whirlwind with the move to WPG and that the scouts were given even more say. That really makes me mad at Comeau, as those two picks were burned on Yuen...

My only gripe from the past three drafts are on the 1st-round values of Scheifele and Morrissey, and at the time having Trouba ranked ahead of Forsberg. That's it. I'm not sour on the players at all, and I really want them to succeed. But with Comeau's track record of 1st round picks...

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07-02-2013, 02:15 PM
  #299
ps241
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Originally Posted by surge1979 View Post
Actually, I came to the same conclusion you did. I watched highlights from his WHL season and from the U-18, and his interviews and was pleasantly surprised. I can get behind this pick. Like Arby, I felt that we could have dropped down a few spots to the 16-20 range and still acquire Morrissey or similar prospect (Wennberg, Mueller, Pulock, Mantha, Shinkaruk, Zadarov, etc). In fact, I thought the Jets had a really successful draft, especially getting Frolik, Petan, Comrie, Lodge where they did.

There were a number of posters who immediately defended the pick and Chevy, called anyone who disagreed a hater. I was mainly responding to that line of thinking.
Fair enough and some of this sounds a bit like my reaction surge. At first I was surprised but upon review there is allot to like about the pick IMHO. I was ok with not dropping down when I found out this was definitely a priority pick for the Jets (after we missed Domi). One other small point it sounded like his GM in PA Campese felt Josh was going between 10 to 20 based on which teams were asking the most questions and showing the most interest in him. He didn't name names but the Jets were not alone in that range and Bruno felt he wasn’t making it out of the top 20.

I am not sure how the summer Junior camp with go for Josh because Canada seemed to get a bit burned using too many offensive D men this past WJC and knowing Hockey Canada they will do an about face now . Thank god it will be on the big ice surface in Sweden so maybe they will still be looking for mobility but I sense they might revert back to experience on the blue line (call it a hunch).

My guess is that when we have the prospects camp with the Jets and he Morrissey get a chance to play beside Trouba we are going to see some magic and we are going to start getting pretty excited. The blend of those two players skill sets is pretty intriguing

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07-02-2013, 02:16 PM
  #300
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Can we now all dispense with the popular meme about a "Chevy type of player"? It appears that Chevy is actually somewhat flexible in how he rates players and understands that a mix of player types is required to build a franchise. I was very pleased that Chevy showed that he isn't a GM that will reach or overpay simply to get more size.

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