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07-01-2013, 05:00 AM
  #101
nik jr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2MGoBlue2 View Post
I will say that value is a pretty useless concept. Wings have shown they know how to scout, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, especially because they have seen the kid play.
there is a big difference among their scouts.

european scouts have a much, much better record than NA scouts. european scouts have produced several elite players and many middle tier players like filppula or hudler or fleischmann.

NA scouts have produced a smaller number of almost entirely role players who have generally been replaceable by FA's.

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Originally Posted by MrTaterSalad View Post
Serious question, who is the last consistently good North American born skater selected by Wings? I'm discounting Jimmy Howard for this question. It looks to me that their track record outside of Europe over the last decade is average at best when it comes to N.A. born players.

Who? Helm? Miller?
i would say helm, but it is a very low standard.

DRW have a terrible record of drafting NA players, which is why it is really annoying that they are having the much less successful NA scouts make most of the picks, instead of the very successful european scouts.


miller was actually claimed from waivers, which shows a good reason not to pick such players in the draft: they can be had for free, and draft picks can be used on players with higher upside (like mantha or tatar or nyquist). good depth players are not at all hard to find. maltby and draper were acquired for very very little. dekeyser was an undrafted FA. TBL signed sustr as a FA around the same time.


in last 20 years, almost all NA draftees are replaceable depth players. several regular posters in AHL thread have said that luke glendening, an undrafted FA, would be a good signing and could be 4th C.





best players drafted from europe in last 20 years
datsyuk, zetterberg, holmstrom, kronwall, filppula, hudler, franzen, ericsson, kopecky, fleischmann, nyquist, tatar, mursak, andersson

could also add igor grigorenko, who probably would have been a regular player if not for his car accident.



best NA draft picks in last 20 years
howard, fischer*, helm, quincey, dandenault, abdelkader, matthias, kindl*, brendan smith, emmerton, meech

*played more outside NA, so could be a product of scouts in both NA and europe.


i would have to check, but i would guess the NA list is among the worst in the NHL over the last 20 years.

they could have their european scouts work more in NA.

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07-01-2013, 06:11 AM
  #102
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bert thanks the lord. (my avatar)

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07-01-2013, 08:21 AM
  #103
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I would imagine most top North American prospects go early, which means in most years the Wings couldn't get them, hence the "mediocre" NA drafting. There are fewer hidden gems in Canada and the US. Clearly they know something about Li'l Bert. They do have a personal connection to him.

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07-01-2013, 09:40 AM
  #104
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The only way this pick turns out well is if Bertuzzi against all odds develops an offensive game. Otherwise his skillset is entirely replaceable and nothing special.

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07-01-2013, 09:41 AM
  #105
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Wasn't Bertuzzi a development camp invite last year? Maybe that could explain the idea that the Wings saw some extra potential.

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07-01-2013, 10:42 AM
  #106
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Anybody else think Jim Nill picking Remi Ellie early in the 2nd round threw Detroit into panic mode?

That pick was pretty far off the board too... If Detroit had Ellie ranked highly, maybe they figured Nill was going to troll our targeted players, so Holland threw his Game plan out the window and just started picking the players he really wanted, regardless of outside rankings.

Just a thought.
Ellie is a really nice high energy player, with potential, but he had a limited role on a stacked team and didn't put up offensive stats... nobody expected him to go in the thirties.

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07-01-2013, 10:53 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricky0034 View Post
the Wings have actually done pretty well in the 2nd round for a long time now though

Red Wings 2nd round draft picks since 2000(excluding this year):

2000: Kopecky
2001: Grigorenko
2002: Hudler,Fleischmann
2003: Howard
2004: no 2nd round picks
2005: Abdelkader
2006: Emmerton,Matthias,Axelsson
2007: no 2nd round picks
2008: no 2nd round picks
2009: Ferraro,Tatar
2010: Jarnkrok
2011: Jurco,Ouellet,Sproul
2012: Frk

that's an impressive list and suggests that 2nd round picks are worth a lot more than you're implying here
If the wings have such an impressive list in the second round why are all these people ******** on the pick a day after the trade when pretty much no one has watched him play?

A guy who makes Shaw look like a lady byng winner is a very specialized skill set if he can pan out

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07-01-2013, 11:02 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
The only way this pick turns out well is if Bertuzzi against all odds develops an offensive game. Otherwise his skillset is entirely replaceable and nothing special.
Maybe its more about how the kid is as a person, there is always more to draft picks and signings than just skillset.

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07-01-2013, 11:21 AM
  #109
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Simply put?

We used to be the kind of team that didn't give a ***** if someone else wanted to overpay for a guy we liked. We made the right pick, at the right time.

Teams like the Islanders say "yeah we overpaid, but we got our guy."

I'll get over it eventually, but things in Red Wing land seemed to have changed yesterday and I don't think it was for the better. We were the nail, not the hammer.

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07-01-2013, 11:24 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfy View Post
If the wings have such an impressive list in the second round why are all these people ******** on the pick a day after the trade when pretty much no one has watched him play?

A guy who makes Shaw look like a lady byng winner is a very specialized skill set if he can pan out
Because all those players were good hockey players when drafted - if you have a lot of success doing something, it would be somewhat foolish to expect doing the exact opposite to also be a success.

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07-01-2013, 11:25 AM
  #111
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You're going off the deep end.

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07-01-2013, 11:29 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Simply put?

We used to be the kind of team that didn't give a ***** if someone else wanted to overpay for a guy we liked. We made the right pick, at the right time.

Teams like the Islanders say "yeah we overpaid, but we got our guy."

I'll get over it eventually, but things in Red Wing land seemed to have changed yesterday and I don't think it was for the better. We were the nail, not the hammer.
I think you're going a little bit off into the wilds here. I think we drafted well with our first two and stuck to filling our holes. We have a LOT of NHL or close to NHL ready players. I think we picked out the talent when it was available and then selected projects that could blossom into something.

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07-01-2013, 11:36 AM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opivy View Post
You're going off the deep end.
I think a lot of people are being really dramatic over things they really don't know much about.

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Old
07-01-2013, 11:36 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opivy View Post
I think you're going a little bit off into the wilds here. I think we drafted well with our first two and stuck to filling our holes. We have a LOT of NHL or close to NHL ready players. I think we picked out the talent when it was available and then selected projects that could blossom into something.
I think you're wrong and not qualified to discuss my mental health or geographic location?

Here, let me show you the "talent that was available" and maybe it'll be obvious why I'm not thrilled:



Now find me a video like that about Bertuzzi. I'll wait, I got all day.

Warning - You won't find it. You will find videos of him losing a lot of fights though.

Seriously, no offense but before you accuse someone of being literally mental, perhaps you should investigate the actual particulars of the situation. We most certainly did not "take the talent when it was available"; we passed on the most "talented" guy multiple times.

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Old
07-01-2013, 11:53 AM
  #115
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what if Todd become a personal trainer and tech his nephew few tricks

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Old
07-01-2013, 11:59 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyldenlove View Post
Because all those players were good hockey players when drafted - if you have a lot of success doing something, it would be somewhat foolish to expect doing the exact opposite to also be a success.
Youre right the wings drafted a guy in the second round that they thought wasnt a good player

The guys who actually watch them thought he was worth the pick, maybe you should give it time to see how it plays out before you cry about it
Quote:
Originally Posted by SportsballChic View Post
I think you're wrong and not qualified to discuss my mental health or geographic location?

Here, let me show you the "talent that was available" and maybe it'll be obvious why I'm not thrilled:

Now find me a video like that about Bertuzzi. I'll wait, I got all day.

Warning - You won't find it. You will find videos of him losing a lot of fights though.

Seriously, no offense but before you accuse someone of being literally mental, perhaps you should investigate the actual particulars of the situation. We most certainly did not "take the talent when it was available"; we passed on the most "talented" guy multiple times.
I can find you a bunch of videos like that for plenty of guys. Dick Axelsson, Kirill Kabanov, and a bunch of random skilled players who can compile a youtube video of themselves.

Now instead of going off your youtube videos maybe you should trust the guys who have been great in the second and actually watch the players instead of going off your youtube and scouting reports by nobodies on the internet

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07-01-2013, 12:33 PM
  #117
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Let's face it though, the last all-star this team drafted was Zetterberg and that was 1999. 14 years ago. It's fine just drafting role players and rolling the dice on projects, if you have your big-time stars in place but that's not the case at the moment unless guys like Nyquist, Tatar or Smith surpass expectations and reach that elite level.

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07-01-2013, 12:33 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SportsballChic View Post
I think you're wrong and not qualified to discuss my mental health or geographic location?

Here, let me show you the "talent that was available" and maybe it'll be obvious why I'm not thrilled:



Now find me a video like that about Bertuzzi. I'll wait, I got all day.

Warning - You won't find it. You will find videos of him losing a lot of fights though.

Seriously, no offense but before you accuse someone of being literally mental, perhaps you should investigate the actual particulars of the situation. We most certainly did not "take the talent when it was available"; we passed on the most "talented" guy multiple times.
Well you didnt really argue the opposite when you posted a video of Dick Axelsson lite and claimed it was proof you werent mental

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Old
07-01-2013, 12:46 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Well you didnt really argue the opposite when you posted a video of Dick Axelsson lite and claimed it was proof you werent mental
I just dunno. I'm not even a hater, I like Holland but a number of the people on this forum must literally be blind.

I think it's pretty obvious that "the most talented kid" was not Bertuzzi. If that makes me mental? I'm glad to be mental. Sure is some nice Kool Aid tho; wish I could partake.

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Old
07-01-2013, 12:51 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by SportsballChic View Post
I just dunno. I'm not even a hater, I like Holland but a number of the people on this forum must literally be blind.

I think it's pretty obvious that "the most talented kid" was not Bertuzzi. If that makes me mental? I'm glad to be mental. Sure is some nice Kool Aid tho; wish I could partake.
Im not saying you are mental or that Bertuzzi were the most talented kid at that spot, just that the video is not helping your cause. Buchnevich isnt that special, I would rather see us take Tkachyov next year.

The Bertuzzi pick might be perplexing atm but maybe it was the right move, maybe not only time will tell.

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07-01-2013, 12:56 PM
  #121
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I think the only thing to do at this point is wait for development camp. That should give us a better idea of what he's about.

Failing that, give him a season. If he still sucks at that point, we can all complain as one giant chorus.

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07-01-2013, 01:09 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SportsballChic View Post
I just dunno. I'm not even a hater, I like Holland but a number of the people on this forum must literally be blind.

I think it's pretty obvious that "the most talented kid" was not Bertuzzi. If that makes me mental? I'm glad to be mental. Sure is some nice Kool Aid tho; wish I could partake.
A bunch of people on this forum clearly have a much better understanding of drafting, developing and building a franchise than the Red Wings front office. They have the rare ability to know how picks will pan out less than a day after they were made. Funnily enough, their ability is limited only to prospects that will fail...

Stepping away from the sarcasm above and back on topic; there was a plan behind what they did, and we all just have to wait and see what that particular plan was. And please, don´t anybody give me a "their plan is to suck!" now. Most people here have ZERO credentials to even talk about these prospects and claim they should pick this over the other (hint: you need to watch hours after hours of games, not some highlight video off youtube)

PS: This is not directed at you personally, but so many people here speak like they are professional scouts without even having seen a single period of the different players they so easily dismiss. In my opinion this drowns all reasonable discussion, and drags it down to an unbearable level. SO much pessimism that I probably won´t be back here until the season starts again...

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Old
07-01-2013, 01:12 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNextDaigle View Post
SO much pessimism that I probably won´t be back here until the season starts again...
Funny, I felt the same way yesterday when people expected me to seriously respond to Andrew Shaw comparisons on a prospect who's never produced like Shaw at any level.

Then I came to my senses and realized it's the internet.

Pass me a jersey, the kid's drafted what the ***** can anyone do about it now? He's a Wing, he's got my support. Plus side, NY will probably ruin the Russian midget so I won't have to care about this in 5 years.

Go Tyler; welcome to the Wings.

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Old
07-01-2013, 01:15 PM
  #124
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Talking to a friend who played against Bertuzzi in minor Midget. He said Bertuzzi was a highly skilled player & a leading scorer on his team, Bertuzzi had 54 points in 26 games. So Bertuzzi has been a scorer before so hopefully he can continue to increase his scoring.

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07-01-2013, 01:20 PM
  #125
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Not impressed by this pick but maybe he will surprise me.

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