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06-10-2005, 04:20 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
No, you're still not getting the point. Even with Wash picking up part of salary, any team is looking at a long term contract for 5 million a year. That is a big, big bucks under the cap and with most teams in the league loosing money last year (including many contenders).

There is no market for Jagr. The contending teams are going to have trouble meeting their existing payroll. The non-contenders are bleeding red ink and will have no interest.

And, again, the UFA market is one of the nicest in years. The very same teams you are talking aobut here (the handfull of true contenders who have room on the payroll and $ to spend) are going to be the teams are most attractive to Demitra and Palffy. Those teams will all have made their moves before the playoffs.

The deadline deal also makes little difference in this case. Leetch had inflated value because a team could sign him and then walkaway. With Jagr, a team will still be stuck with multiple years of a fat contact - and they'll still have problems with the cap next season.

You can fantasize about getting some big return for Jagr that you want. But, the same thing is going to go down for him as has gone down for every other big money player traded in the last decade. You'll get picks and prospects at best. and, IMO, you won't even get that. You're stuck with his contract.
If we got a mid to high first rounder and a good prospect who figures to be a lock to play in the NHL(not top line material) I'd be happy so I'm not thinking I'd be trading my moody superstar for some outragous package of say some 18 yr old future superstar(cough..Spezza..cough) and a great 2way big, tough, mean and young D-man coming back my way.

And you my friend are underestimating why a GM/owner will do/pay for a player such as Jagr if they feel he'd be the missing piece to a Cup run, especially with all teams looking to recharge their fanbase with interest.It never hurts to bring in one of the best known players in the world to help generate interest.

You keep saying he'll have multiple yrs of a fat contract but if he goes at the deadline this year which would mean it would be covered by the NYR's he'd only have TWO yrs and 4.5-5 million to be paid to him and only that marked against your cap.

That is not a situation that will drive a contender away if he feels Jagr can put them over the top.Teams have gave up more as well as taken on more in their quest to bring a cup home and Jagr is still one of the absolute best in the world who can recapture the title of best player in the world at this stage.

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06-10-2005, 04:25 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9
As for bringing Yashin into the situiation of course it's petty but you know me well enough Darth, I always get petty when it's an Isle-Ranger debate and NYIsles1 is a bigtime Isle homer/Ranger basher who just hide's his true intentions slightly by trying to appear more even handed then he actually is and his resposnes in this thread proves that beyond a reasonable doubt.
First off JR#9 the best I have ever written for the Isles (and Yashin) is they could go either way as a team and is a work in progress. If this makes me a homer in your view (or anyone's) so be it. The Isles made the playoffs three years in a row, there are reasons to be positive and negative, no more and no less. Anything aside from that is not very objective and reflects a bias beyond what's happened.

I did not bring up the Isles, Yashin or our prospects in this topic and the only thing your proving is you own lack of objectivity as an Islander-basher who is not
even-handed at all. I wrote about Brian Leetch being an absolute Hall of Famer who will be standard of future offensive defender with a vision of the ice no defender had in two decades makes me just a huge Ranger basher.

Depending on the Ranger subject they have not earned much reason to be very posititive whether you care to admit it or not. When they do you have my promise they will receive the accolades as quickly as they receive the criticism, otherwise what's the point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9
No team would ever touch Jagr and the Pens and Caps couldn't give him away, of course all the while ommitting the fact that IF true he'd only be against your cap for 4.5 million as oppossed to making the 11 million he got in Washington.
You really have to read the topic and the comments. Once again he is not worth four or five million to me with that many years in a new cba. I have written it several times, I stand by it and others have somewhat agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9
The Pens dumped him knowing it would take a 7 yr-77 million dolllar deal and not many teams could afford that deal thus the Pens couldn't get maximum return.
Jagr signed his long-term deal as a Cap. If there are articles that claim he wanted a seven year deal worth seventy-seven million that froze out every NHL team while he was still in Pittsburgh I never read them. I did however read several articles saying he is not worth the baggage at any price and he quit on his team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9
The Caps gave him the big contract but when unloading how many teams wanted to take on that contract with a Cap right around the corner and no certainty of knowing if the full salary would be against their Cap or it it would be split as rumoured to be.

That makes those deals irrelevant.
How does this make either deal irrevelant? Any team that wanted his serives would have demanded the Caps eat part of the contract. What is relevant is twice his baggage as a player was the over-riding factor whether you want to admit it or not.
The Caps did not want him around for their franchise prospects which says a great deal about him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9
Now with yet another yr of commitment off the deal if they can have him start the year and play like he did after arriving in NY can you honestly tell me that if offered at the deadline that their wouldn't be a significant market for Jagr if it were only 4.5-5 million against your cap and 2 more yrs left after this one which would've been paid up already by the NYR's.
There are incentive options in his deal for an automatic third year if they are met and five million is a lot of money for someone who will be thirty six or thirty seven. Once again your bending over backwards to sell us that one month without looking at the entire recent resume which reflects only homerism. He had a very good team with him in Washington that first year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9
You can throw out the Pallfy's and the Demitra's but people are forgetting 2 things...1-Jagr is significantly better than both players....2-The other 2 are UFA's that will chose their own teams.
1-Jagr was trailing Marisuz Czerkawski is scoring most of last season. Were not talking career resumes here we are talking about comtemporary history and Palffy/Demitra do not bring a long-term commitment or Jagr's personal baggage although Ziggy has had problems staying healthy. 2-These players will choose their teams without lingering years under the old cba and may still have their best in front of them, unlike Jagr who's best was several years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9
Now for NYISles1 most hysterical point about Yashin and how he is such a great soldier and always keeps his mouth shut regardless of who he plays with and how he lead his team to be such an offensive dynamo in his 3 yrs there all while turning a blind eye to the fact that Yashin doesn't have an ounce of leadership in his entire body he was the most disrupting player to his team in the entire NHL over a 3yr period for his last 3 in Ott where he absolutely quit on his team, his play on the Isles has been substandard and the guy has BY FAR the absolute worst and unjustified contract in all of hockey history.
Being that bashing Yashin is more important to you than discussing the posted topic
only serves to prove that your point is not objective and carries little substance as little more than a Ranger homer. It's disappointing of the level of discussion folks look for here. As for players who were a big disruption for several years Eric Lindros was run out of Philadelphia with his family and lawyers making headlines daily. Where did he wind up again? Forgot, as a Ranger he was reborn too right?

Now his father is ripping the Rangers for him.

Back to Yashin all I can do is repeat what I wrote above. Yashin is a work in progress and so are the Isles. I subscribe to the thinking anyone working for a paycheck should keep his mouth shut and do his best and Yashin has been quiet and classy as an Islander which is different of how he was portrayed in Ottawa. Of course in your view Jagr's last month makes him a reborn player while your going back almost five years on Yashin, who's former team has only proven the problems go beyond him come playoff time. Good objective viewpoint on your part.

It's very appropriate to question Yashin's lack of effort work ethic at times, to not do so would simply not be objective. That said his teams have gone to the playoffs and the Isles had the fourth biggest single-season turnaround in NHL history in his first year where he produced a seventy-five point season in 2001-02. In a very poor 2002-03 he scored twelve goals (twenty points) in thirteen games down the stretch with Aron Asham and Oleg Kvasha on his wings. As poor as he played when all was said and done he outscored an entire Ranger team loaded with former stars with a playoff spot on the line with a team with no proven first line talent. I'm not going to put him in the Hall of Fame for it but I will acknowledge it as a good finish to a poor season, no more, no less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9
The bright side to all of this is when you see Isle-NYR fans getting heated you know hockey is close to getting back!!!
The only side to this is your taking the topic beyond it's intention which was Jagr's trade value for selfish reasons unfair to the folks who wanted to discuss it. Others do not see a lot of trade value in Jagr at this time and neither do I.


Last edited by NYIsles1*: 06-10-2005 at 04:48 PM.
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06-10-2005, 04:26 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury

So, to make this more concrete: How about listing the teams that could actually afford 5 million per year for Jagr and tell us what they might offer. You'll quickly find there isn't a whole lot of competition. And, no competition = no trade value.
At this stage of the game it is impossible to put any list together because we know nothing as far as who signs where, what teams have a shot at a cup come trade deadline, what each teams cap situation will be, what injuries may occur this year...etc.

Come speak to me in Febuary and I'll give you that list.

The other side of this is, the NYR's don't NEED to trade him.We have zero cap issues and he'd provide some entertainment while the kids go through their growing pains.If I can move him at the deadline for some assets to assist in the rebuild I'd love to but it is not a dire need.

Frankly I just think you underestimate what a team will/can give if they feel they have a shot at a Cup and a superstar who can absolutely dominate the way Jagr can may be the guy they feel can get them their for a 2 yr commitment at 5 million per against the cap.

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06-10-2005, 04:46 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYIsles1
Jagr signed his long-term deal as a Cap. If there are articles that claim he wanted a seven year deal worth seventy-seven million that froze out every NHL team I never read them. I did however read several articles saying he is not worth the baggage at any price and he quit on his team.
Come on, do you really need a news source to know that a 7 year 77M contract (or anywhere close to that) would take 90% of the league out of contention not to mention have to give up players just for the right to sign him to that contract.

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06-10-2005, 04:49 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by NYIsles1
First off JR#9 the best I have ever written for the Isles (and Yashin) is they could go either way as a team and this team is product is a work in progress. If this makes me a homer in your view (or anyone's) so be it. The Isles made the playoffs three years in a row, there are reasons to be positive and negative, no more and no less. Anything aside from that is not very objective and reflects a bias beyond what's happened that should be ignored.

I did not bring up the Isles, Yashin or our prospects in this topic and the only thing your proving is you own lack of objectivity. Considering you continue to bring Yashin into this topic you should look at yourself as an Islander-basher who is not
even-handed at all. The post I wrote about Brian Leetch being an absolute Hall of Famer who will be standard of future offensive defender with a vision of the ice no defender had in two decades makes me just a huge Ranger basher. Depending on the Ranger subject they have not earned much reason to be very positive whether you care to admit it or not. When they do you have my promise they will receive the accolades as quickly as they receive the criticism, otherwise what's the point?


You really have to read the topic and the comments. Once again he is not worth four or five million to me with that many years in a new cba. I have written it several times, I stand by it and others have somewhat agreed.


Jagr signed his long-term deal as a Cap. If there are articles that claim he wanted a seven year deal worth seventy-seven million that froze out every NHL team I never read them. I did however read several articles saying he is not worth the baggage at any price and he quit on his team.


How does this make either deal irrevelant? Any team that wanted his serives would have demanded the Caps eat part of the contract. What is relevant is twice his baggage as a player was a factor whether you want to admit it or not and the Caps did not want him around for their franchise prospects which says a great deal about him.


There are incentive options in his deal for an automatic third year if they are met and five million is a lot of money for someone who will be thirty six or thirty seven. Once again your bending over backwards to sell us that one month without looking at the entire recent resume which reflects only homerism. He had a very good team with him in Washington that first year.


1-Jagr was trailing Marisuz Czerkawski is scoring most of last season. Were not talking career resumes here we are talking about comtemporary history and Palffy/Demitra do not bring a long-term commitment or Jagr's personal baggage although Ziggy has had problems staying healthy. 2-These players will choose their teams without lingering years under the old cba and may still have their best in front of them, unlike Jagr who's best was several years ago.


Being that bashing Yashin is more important to you than discussing the posted topic
only serves to prove that your point is not objective and carries little substance as little more than a Ranger homer. It's disappointing of the level of discussion folks look for here. As for players who were a big disruption for several years Eric Lindros was run out of Philadelphia with his family and lawyers making headlines daily. Where did he wind up again? Forgot, as a Ranger he was reborn too right?

All I can do is repeat what I wrote above. Yashin is a work in progress and so are the Isles. I subscribe to the thinking anyone working for a paycheck should keep his mouth shut and do his best and Yashin has been quiet and classy as an Islander which is different of how he was portrayed in Ottawa. Of course in your view Jagr's last month makes him a reborn player while your going back almost five years on Yashin, who's former team has only proven the problems go beyond him come playoff time. Good objective viewpoint.

It's very appropriate to question Yashin's lack of effort work ethic at times, to not do so would simply not be objective. That said his teams have gone to the playoffs and the Isles had the fourth biggest single-season turnaround in NHL history in his first year where he produced a seventy-five point season in 2001-02. In a very poor 2002-03 he scored twelve goals (twenty points) in thirteen games down the stretch with Aron Asham and Oleg Kvasha on his wings. As poor as he played when all was said and done he outscored an entire Ranger team loaded with former stars with a playoff spot on the line with a team with no proven first line talent. I'm not going to put him in the Hall of Fame for it but I will acknowledge it as a good finish to a poor season, no more, no less.


The only side to this is your taking the topic beyond it's intention which was Jagr's trade value for selfish reasons unfair to the folks who wanted to discuss it. Others do not see a lot of trade value in Jagr at this time and neither do I.
Let's start out with your first response to this thread which was you'd give back Anson Carter with the NYR's paying the salary or some other BS potshot comment.Call it like it is.I do like to bash the Isles and I make no bones about it.On the flip side I don't think you'll find too many that label me a homer as I don't tend to overate the NYR's players picks as much as I tend to bash other posters team that try and downplay the NYR's while always hyping their own teams players/picks.

I never said once Jagr was reborn nor do I feel that way.I don't like what he has become as a player since leaving Pitt and feel he is very selfish.That being said he is still a top 5 player in the world IMO and even now can be the absolute best and most dominating in the world and I don't think many will feel that is off base.

As for the other deal being relevant I said 40 f'in times that the difference last year was that he had 5 as in FIVE YRS left on his deal and more importantly nobody knew if his entire salary would be sitting on your books or if it would be split with what postion the Caps will be taking as well as the 24% rollback not being know at the time changes things/

If you can't grasp the concept of why that makes him significantly more marketable I don't know what to tell you but 3 yrs at 5 million vs 5 yrs at 55 million certainly makes for a much different picture to most GM's if I had to guess.

And post CBA the NHL superstars will still be getting 5-6 million instead of 10-11 million.It's the 2nd-3rd-4th line guys that will suffer.Superstars will still eat up a significant portion as they are the guys who get people in the stands and will be paid as such.

As for the Isles work in progress, please.

They are an average team.Painfully average and the fact that you scrapped a promising 10 yr rebuild to build a average, win now team, one with a terrible prospect pool left and not a dime to spare is nothing short of laughable, well at least if your an Ranger fan.

And Yashin has done jack **** on the Island.9 yrs 90 million has gotten you what?What are his numbers like?What kind of leader is he?What has he done for marketing?Who has he made a better player for 90 million?

What hammers this point home is you yourself in the above post call Yashin a "work in progress"...A WORK IN PROGRESS!!!!!!

At 90 million and 10 yrs at 29 yrs old he's work in F'in progress!!

Debate over on this subject on that note.

Our mismanagement/poor play has certainly been humerous to you as it should but we now have a promising rebuild just underway, a ton more resources then the Isles and people actually want to play for the NYR's where as the Isles will never sign a top UFA as they are never on those players list.

Time will tell what kind of market will be there come the deadline but I think you guys severely underate what a contending team is willing to pay for a piece they think would put them over the top.

And just to be clear I'd be happy getting a first rounder and a prospect who figures to at least have a career as a solid 3rd line/3rd pair d-man so I'm not think Spezza-Chara package here.


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06-10-2005, 04:53 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
Come on, do you really need a news source to know that a 7 year 77M contract (or anywhere close to that) would take 90% of the league out of contention not to mention have to give up players just for the right to sign him to that contract.

This guy wants to play dumb to support his lame arguement but even an average hockey fan KNEW that it would take a longterm, top $$$ in the league to trade for this guy so him pretending this wasn't the case is almost as funny as him pretending that Yashin is a good soldier/leader and was worth trading for!!!!

Why does he think Pitt traded him and got so little in return???Because after negotiating they knew they couldn't afford his demands and that few teams in the league could.

I guess it was just Isle fans like himself left in the dark on this big secret.

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06-10-2005, 04:57 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
Come on, do you really need a news source to know that a 7 year 77M contract (or anywhere close to that) would take 90% of the league out of contention not to mention have to give up players just for the right to sign him to that contract.
There is no doubt it would take out ninety percent of the teams or more and you missed my point.

The Pens dumped him knowing it would take a 7 yr-77 million dolllar deal and not many teams could afford that deal thus the Pens couldn't get maximum return.

What my point is did Pittsburgh and the league know they needed to give him a seven year deal for seventy seven million? Did someone report these were his
long-term contract demands for teams interested in his service that summer. Again I never read anything along those lines.

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06-10-2005, 05:00 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by NYIsles1
That's not what I'm writing here.

The Pens dumped him knowing it would take a 7 yr-77 million dolllar deal and not many teams could afford that deal thus the Pens couldn't get maximum return.
Pittsburgh knew they needed to give him a seven year deal for seventy seven million? Did someone report these were his long-term contract demands for teams interested in his service that summer. Again I never read anything along those lines.





Well after having negotiating w/Jagr and his agent I'm sure the Pens had some sort of idea as to what it would take to get him inked longterm and I'm totally going out on a limb here but I would venture to guess that George McPhee maybe, just maybe may have asked Patrick what kind of deal it would take to sign Jagr longterm and then based his offer for trade upon that thus the substandard package Pitt recieved back.

Call me crazy but I think that's how it may have unfolded.

I guess it's you didn't read it in the papers it must not have gone down that way.It's not like Gm'S talk behind closed doors w/o letting Brooks and Hahn know about it, right?


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06-10-2005, 05:11 PM
  #109
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Where did NYIsles1 suddenly disappear to?

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06-10-2005, 05:15 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9
Well after having negotiating w/Jagr and his agent I'm sure the Pens had some sort of idea as to what it would take to get him inked longterm and I'm totally going out on a limb here but I would venture to guess that George McPhee maybe, just maybe may have asked Patrick what kind of deal it would take to sign Jagr longterm and then based his offer for trade upon that thus the substandard package Pitt recieved back.

Call me crazy but I think that's how it may have unfolded.
That's not what you wrote now is it?

The Pens dumped him knowing it would take a 7 yr-77 million dolllar deal and not many teams could afford that deal thus the Pens couldn't get maximum return.

You have the years and the dollar amounts all set to go on the long-term deal knowing that was the number Pittsburgh and everyone had to have to sign him.

Again, I'm asking where you came up with that specific number when he was still in Pittsburgh?

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06-10-2005, 05:22 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by NYIsles1
That's not what you wrote now is it?

The Pens dumped him knowing it would take a 7 yr-77 million dolllar deal and not many teams could afford that deal thus the Pens couldn't get maximum return.

You have the years and the dollar amounts all set to go on the long-term deal knowing that was the number Pittsburgh and everyone had to have to sign him.

Again, I'm asking where you came up with that specific number when he was still in Pittsburgh?
Are you really that dense or are you trying to break balls.

The Pens had extensive negotiations with him as to what he wanted to get a longterm deal done.

Again, I'll go out on a limb and take a stab that Patrick was informed that he would want to be the highest paid player in the game and that it would have to be a longterm deal.

Maybe Patrick was just super smart but being that Kariya and Forsberg were getting 10 million I'm guessing Patrick figured out he'd have to pay more then that to meet Jagr's request for being the highest paid player in the game!!!

And he probrably figured out that longterm deal meant more then 5 yrs in Jagr's eyes as that what JJ's agent informed him!!!

If you just follow the little bouncing blue ball it's not that hard to follow along here.

With that I'm gone for the weekend.


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06-10-2005, 05:38 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by JR#9
Our mismanagement/poor play has certainly been humerous to you as it should but we now have a promising rebuild just underway, a ton more resources then the Isles and people actually want to play for the NYR's where as the Isles will never sign a top UFA as they are never on those players list..
Talk about humerous, the next time anyone takes less money to be a New York Ranger will be the first, even Messier left for the payday. As for resources the new cba means the playing field will be level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9
The Pens had extensive negotiations with him as to what he wanted to get a longterm deal done.

Again, I'll go out on a limb and take a stab that Patrick was informed that he would want to be the highest paid player in the game and that it would have to be a longterm deal.

Maybe Patrick was just super smart but being that Kariya and Forsberg were getting 10 million I'm guessing Patrick figured out he'd have to pay more then that to meet Jagr's request for being the highest paid player in the game!!!

And he probrably figured out that longterm deal meant more then 5 yrs in Jagr's eyes as that what JJ's agent informed him!!!

If you just follow the little bouncing blue ball it's not that hard to follow along here.

With that I'm gone for the weekend.
First your giving us all specfic numbers, now your going out on a limb. Basically you do not know what your talking about.

As for the rest JR frankly your not worth the time. I tend to ignore people here who cannot engage in respectful and objection hockey discussion, unfortunately you put on a poor show for everyone today and it's disappointing. No one wins...

Finally, Thanks Darth. We rarely agree but the feelings mutual on everything else. Good job.


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06-10-2005, 06:27 PM
  #113
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Jagr at $4m-$4.5m would draw interest,but he's not going to be the only star player suddenly making a reduced and affordable salary.


Toronto press is reporting that Mogilny who's had a yr off to rest his hip, is saying he'll take a $3m paycut,he'll play for roughly 1/3 what he made last yr.Nolan's also expected to take a big paycut to stay in Toronto

Colorado press is reporting that Sakic's post rollback salary will be $6.6 million,Forsberg's saying he'll take a sizeable paycut to return to Colorado.
50 goal scorer Milan Hejduk was due $5.7m in 2004-05,a 24% rollback will have him making roughly $4.4m.Tanguay was due $4.25m.A 24% rollback has him at $3.4m/$3.5m.


Shanahan's expected to take sizeable paycut to remain with the Wings.

The ufa market is going to see the usual big spenders held in check,keeping salaries down.Why trade cheap,young trade chips for Jagr,when a team can sign Dimetra(sp) for a similar amount?

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06-10-2005, 07:54 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW
The ufa market is going to see the usual big spenders held in check,keeping salaries down.

Translation: the teams with the most talent will now lose some of it, as it is re-distributed, thanks to the hardcap. No offense Crew, I recognize that the economics leaguewide have been uneven for years, and I'm fully aware that an upcoming hardcap of some sort will curtail such monetary inequities (though it will not make inferior GMs any smarter, nor their teams any better, as much as some fans of also-rans like to dream.). But it is so friggin' disingenuous to simply label a Colorado or Detroit "big spenders". Would you have preferred they just let their players (Sakic, Forsberg, Roy, Blake '01; Shanahan, Yzerman, etc. in Detroit) that have helped them win Cups walk when their contracts expired? When you possess a winning roster and have elite players, AND THE MEAN$ TO RETAIN THEM, you do. To be sure, the ability to do so will be severely hampered under a cap. Which you and many others applaud. Your privilege. (Be careful what you wish for; it may come back to bite your team. ) I'm not here to argue the merits of a future CBA, just to defend the criticism some of the best-run franchises in the league receive from some here.

Why trade cheap,young trade chips for Jagr,when a team can sign Dimetra(sp) for a similar amount?

Why? Because not every team bases everything solely on a financial sheet. And circumstances differ. Said it before: the length (much moreso than the dollar figure) of Jagr's contract will scare most teams off. But there will remain - even in the new NHL - franchises willing to pay the price to win. If you are a serious contender and can get Jagr (with his head on straight) heading into the playoffs vs. Demitra, that's a no-brainer, your beancounters be damned. One is a very solid two-way winger and, as you suggest, likely a better bargain. The other is a world-class game breaker.

I recognize that we have had no concept of what it means to actually compete for the Stanley Cup for two decades, but the idea of winning the silver remains alive and well in some cites. Teams that have a legit chance to win will often take the risk, both in trading away "futures" to fill an immediate hole, and with their wallets. That is, hypothetically it would make zero sense at this point for NYI to pursue a player like Jagr. It could make a world of sense for a more veteran, perennial contending team like NJD to make a move for him come mid-season. ("Hypothetical" as NYR would never deal him to either local team.)

Darth is right, IMO: the market will be very limited for Jagr, even at ~$5 mil per year, which will not result in NYR ever getting a bonanza in return. But so too is JR: there will always be suitors for a player of that stature.


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06-10-2005, 08:46 PM
  #115
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Translation: the teams with the most talent will now lose some of it, as it is re-distributed, thanks to the hardcap. No offense Crew, I recognize that the economics leaguewide have been uneven for years, and I'm fully aware that a hardcap of some sort will curtail such monetary inequities (though it will not make inferior GMs any smarter, nor their teams any better, tsk, tsk.). But it is so friggin' disingenuous to simply label a Colorado or Detroit "big spenders". Would you have preferred they just let their players (Sakic, Forsberg, Roy, Blake '01; Shanahan, Yzerman, etc. in Detroit) walk when their contracts expired? When you possess a winning roster and have elite players, AND THE MEAN$ TO RETAIN THEM, you do. To be sure, the ability to do so will be severely hampered under a cap. Which you and many others applaud. Your privilege. (Be careful what you wish for; it may come back to bite you. ) I'm not here to argue the merits of a future CBA, just to defend the criticism some of the best-run franchises in the league receive from some here.
No.

Translation:the teams with the deepest pockets,who've usually had the highest payrolls,will be unable to spend the way they've grown used to on the ufa market.Which means we'll see ufa salaries kept down.

Do I want to see the Avs and Wings keep their core players?Yes I do,but I also want to see the Islanders be able to keep their core players like Hamrlik+Aucoin.Aucoin's a very good defensemen,who thinks he's worth $5m a yr.I think the rumored $3.5m the isles offered him is very fair.I think it good that the new cba will keep bigger market teams from wildly overpaying Aucoin.

You agree that economics leaguewide have been uneven for years,but don't seem to want changes.


Quote:
Why? Because not every team bases everything solely on a financial sheet. And circumstances differ. Said it before: the length (much moreso than the dollar figure) of Jagr's contract will scare teams off. But there will remain - even in the new NHL - teams that want to win. If you are a serious contender and can get Jagr heading into the playoffs vs. Demitra, that's a no-brainer, your beancounters be damned. One is a very solid two-way winger and, as you suggest, likely a better bargain. The other is a world-class game breaker.

I recognize that we have had no concept of what it means to actually compete for the Stanley Cup for two decades, but the idea of winning the silver remains alive and well in some cites. Teams that have a legit chance to win will often take the risk, both in trading away "futures" for to fill an immediate hole, and with their wallets. That is, hypothetically it would make zero sense at this point for NYI to pursue a player like Jagr. It could make a world of sense for a more veteran, perennial contending team like NJD to make a move for him come mid-season. ("Hypothetical" as NYR would never deal him to either local team.)

If you go back and read my posts,you'll find that I said teams are more likely to overpay at the trade deadline,that the rangers would get a nice return for Jagr at that point.

I do think that because the world-class game breaker has proven to be a sulking distraction, when he's on a team he doesn't wants to be on and because there will be so many talented players available at reduced salaries,that teams will look elsewhere once the free ageny signing period starts.

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06-10-2005, 09:16 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by JR#9
That is not a situation that will drive a contender away if he feels Jagr can put them over the top.Teams have gave up more as well as taken on more in their quest to bring a cup home and Jagr is still one of the absolute best in the world who can recapture the title of best player in the world at this stage.
The question is how many contenders so you think will have the cap space to add a 5 million dollar player?

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06-11-2005, 12:13 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW
Do I want to see the Avs and Wings keep their core players?Yes I do,but I also want to see the Islanders be able to keep their core players like Hamrlik+Aucoin.Aucoin's a very good defensemen,who thinks he's worth $5m a yr.

That's fair enough...

You agree that economics leaguewide have been uneven for years,but don't seem to want changes.

I recognize the benefits of a hardcap. I also recognize the negatives of it. This is seemingly a moot point, as its inevitable. However, with rare exception, proponents either are oblivious or refuse to ackowledge that a hardcap, while solving the "equitable payroll" issue, brings warts with it. They'll find out soon enough, I guess. (And I'm not going to get into them here, as this is obstensibly a thread about Jagr, and I try to avoid the "Business of Hockey Board," as it was overtaken over months ago by dimestore economic majors who are obscenly jealous of succe$$ful people. )


If you go back and read my posts,you'll find that I said teams are more likely to overpay at the trade deadline,that the rangers would get a nice return for Jagr at that point.

I do think that because the world-class game breaker has proven to be a sulking distraction, when he's on a team he doesn't wants to be on and because there will be so many talented players available at reduced salaries,that teams will look elsewhere once the free ageny signing period starts.

Agreed. I misread your last post to suggest that Demitra under any circumstance (at any time) is preferable to Jagr.

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06-11-2005, 12:51 AM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9
If we got a mid to high first rounder and a good prospect who figures to be a lock to play in the NHL(not top line material) I'd be happy so I'm not thinking I'd be trading my moody superstar for some outragous package of say some 18 yr old future superstar(cough..Spezza..cough) and a great 2way big, tough, mean and young D-man coming back my way.

And you my friend are underestimating why a GM/owner will do/pay for a player such as Jagr if they feel he'd be the missing piece to a Cup run, especially with all teams looking to recharge their fanbase with interest.It never hurts to bring in one of the best known players in the world to help generate interest.

You keep saying he'll have multiple yrs of a fat contract but if he goes at the deadline this year which would mean it would be covered by the NYR's he'd only have TWO yrs and 4.5-5 million to be paid to him and only that marked against your cap.

That is not a situation that will drive a contender away if he feels Jagr can put them over the top.Teams have gave up more as well as taken on more in their quest to bring a cup home and Jagr is still one of the absolute best in the world who can recapture the title of best player in the world at this stage.
Like I said, your constant references to Yashin are irrelevant, petty, and (to be quite frank) pretty childish. Yashin has nothing to do with the conversation. Acquring him was a dumb move, but that doesn't make Jagr any more valuable on the trade market. If you'd like, we can sidetrack the conversation further, and I can bring up the numerous dumb deals the Rangers$ made in the last decade. But, unlike you, I'm am choosing to actually offer comments that have to do with the topic of the thread.

At the deadline, Jagr will still add 5 million to any team's payroll for the coming two years. Depending on the cap (which is rumored to be as low as 38 million), Jagr could eat up 15% of a team's payroll. I seriously doubt that any true contender is going to have that kind of salary cap room. Essentially, you're trying to suggest that a playoff contender would have made it that far with a payroll in the 33 to 35 million range.

You'll have zero market for Jagr and there is no way you're going to walk away with first rounders and a prospect. That is unrealistic, to say the least.

And, btw, we're all assuming here that Jagr's FULL contract will not count against a team's cap. We don't really know that to be the case.

Finally, I'm not sure that GMs around the league are really going to see Jagr as a guy who can put them over the top. IMO, Jagr remains an elite talent. But, he has gotten a pretty bad rap recently.


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06-11-2005, 12:53 AM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marconius
The question is how many contenders so you think will have the cap space to add a 5 million dollar player?
My point exactly. Right now, Jagr's 5 million contract is even more of a detriment than his pre-CBA contract.

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06-11-2005, 01:45 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
My point exactly. Right now, Jagr's 5 million contract is even more of a detriment than his pre-CBA contract.
But doesn't that assume an inflexible cap, Darth? We don't know if there will loopholes that will enable player transactions to take place more easily, though some here talk about it with unjustified certainty.

If the NHL model is like the NFL's (a bonafide hardcap) and player contracts remain guaranteed (unlike the NFL), then you will see minimal player movement in the future, particularly in-season, per your point above about Jagr.

Which would be terribly unfortunate for fans, IMO.

***

Sidenote: Since his name was evoked here numerous times, I owe you a public apology, 48 months after the fact (trade). You were correct, I was wrong: the Yashin deal was a mistake for NYI. As much as I've tried to rationalize it, and even if one does not get weirded out by what NYI gave up, they still didn't get enough back in the way of production, winning pedigree, etc.

Back to Jagr....

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06-11-2005, 01:52 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
But doesn't that assume an inflexible cap, Darth? We don't know if there will loopholes that will enable player transactions to take place more easily, though some here talk about it with unjustified certainty.

If the NHL model is like the NFL's (a bonafide hardcap) and player contracts remain guaranteed (unlike the NFL), then you will see minimal player movement in the future, particularly in-season, per your point above about Jagr.

Which would be terribly unfortunate for fans, IMO.

***

Sidenote: Since his name was evoked here numerous times, I owe you a public apology, 48 months after the fact (trade). You were correct, I was wrong: the Yashin deal was a mistake for NYI. As much as I've tried to rationalize it, and even if one does not get weirded out by what NYI gave up, they still didn't get enough back in the way of production, winning pedigree, etc.

Back to Jagr....
Now I'd like similar admissions about Peca, Janne N., Hamrlik, et al! I didn't like ANY of our vet for youth deals, as you know.

As for the CBA and player movements, I guess we'll have to wait to see. But, either way, I think a new day is coming in the NHL. Teams are no longer willing to bleed red ink. And, that means that guys like Jagr and Yashin, who got big money under the old system, are untradeable players.

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06-11-2005, 05:24 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Trottier

I misread your last post to suggest that Demitra under any circumstance (at any time) is preferable to Jagr.

no you didn't misread that part of my post.I'm not arguing that Jagr's the more talented player.I'm saying it goes beyond who's more talented.


the isles have a limited number of trade assets.Defense is a much higher priority then rw and we may end up having to use those trade chips for defensemen.
With salaries expected to start falling under the new cba,Jagr won't be the only big name player available at a reasonable salary and also Jagr's proven to be a disruptive distraction when he's on a team he doesn't want to be on,so yeah I'd take signing ufa Demitra over trading for Jagr.

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06-11-2005, 05:40 PM
  #123
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The difference between Demitra and Jagr in terms of actual production the last few years has not been all that great either. I'm not saying that Demitra is nearly the player that Jagr is, but I would not be especially shocked if Demitra wound up outscoring Jagr next season.

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06-11-2005, 06:17 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Reveille!
No need to act like a fool. You know very well that the Islanders would gladly take Jagr for a measly 4m a season. Don't even kid yourself with that one.

This is about trade offers.
You propose a trade and then call the poster a fool for responding with a no and giving you a reason. Why don't you stick Jagr where the sun don't shine, he's a perfect Ranger!

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06-11-2005, 10:28 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
The difference between Demitra and Jagr in terms of actual production the last few years has not been all that great either. I'm not saying that Demitra is nearly the player that Jagr is, but I would not be especially shocked if Demitra wound up outscoring Jagr next season.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of either player (as a "foundation" player), Jagr for all the reasons covered in this thread, Demitra because he can disappear for long stretches at key times (playoffs).

I guess I'm still working under the old CBA model when I say that Demitra likely makes more economic sense as a pickup prior to the next season, but if both of them were on the block at the trade deadline next spring, assuming a contender could afford both, Jagr would be the favorable choice.

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