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Old
06-11-2005, 09:48 PM
  #126
Bird Law
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKSIDE
You propose a trade and then call the poster a fool for responding with a no and giving you a reason. Why don't you stick Jagr where the sun don't shine, he's a perfect Ranger!
What are you talking about? I never called Reaper a fool, who was the only one who actually proposed a trade and I counter-proposed a trade. Those rosey-red glasses fogging up, there, man?

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06-11-2005, 09:49 PM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Personally, I'm not a big fan of either player (as a "foundation" player), Jagr for all the reasons covered in this thread, Demitra because he can disappear for long stretches at key times (playoffs).

I guess I'm still working under the old CBA model when I say that Demitra likely makes more economic sense as a pickup prior to the next season, but if both of them were on the block at the trade deadline next spring, assuming a contender could afford both, Jagr would be the favorable choice.
What would you think Demitra will command in the "post-CBA" market? Will he hold out for at least 5 million or so?

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06-11-2005, 09:51 PM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
The difference between Demitra and Jagr in terms of actual production the last few years has not been all that great either. I'm not saying that Demitra is nearly the player that Jagr is, but I would not be especially shocked if Demitra wound up outscoring Jagr next season.
The difference being while Jagr was on some of the worst teams around and while Demitra was on a playoff team year in year out. You have to think that has had something to do with it, as well. If Jagr is on a contender, he plays hard hard hard. I highly doubt a non-contender would even step up to the plate and try to get Jagr.

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06-12-2005, 09:57 AM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reveille!
The difference being while Jagr was on some of the worst teams around and while Demitra was on a playoff team year in year out. You have to think that has had something to do with it, as well. If Jagr is on a contender, he plays hard hard hard.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hockey/nhl/2001/features/preview/capitals/

Jaromir Jagr's shining moment last spring occurred not on the ice, where he scored only twice in 16 playoff games for the Penguins, but on an off day. With the Penguins and Devils tied at one game apiece in the Eastern Conference finals, and with rumors intensifying that Jagr would be dealt after the season, he stood outside the Pittsburgh dressing room with only a towel around his waist and playfully harassed acquaintances as they passed by. "Doood, where's your cahr?" asked the Czech-born Jagr, who retains an accent. "And you! Doood, where's your cahr?" Jagr threw his head back every so often, laughing.

That Jagr's mood was so light moments after fielding questions about his potential departure from Pittsburgh was no surprise. In 11 seasons with the Penguins, Jagr had emerged as the NHL's most exciting talent and one of its most unpredictable players. He became disenchanted last season believing that rookie coach Ivan Hlinka's left-wing lock hurt the team. Then, after player-owner Mario Lemieux began talking about shedding Jagr's $9.5 million salary, an unhappy Jagr exulted at the thought of getting out of Dodge.

Now he's out, and glad. "I knew that if I wanted to be the player I was, I had to move on," says the 29-year-old Jagr, a right wing who played through a shoulder injury in the postseason. "People started questioning everything, and I was hurt. There were some bad things said about me, but I think good things come from something bad. I am very happy to be with Washington now."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hockey/nhl/2001/preview/capitals_preview/

Coming off its 96-point season and its second consecutive Southeast Division title,
Washington added Jaromir Jagr in its already potentoffensive stable after an offseason trade with Pittsburgh. And the best part for the Caps? They didnít have to give up much of their current roster to get him.

So the sky is the limit for Washington, a team that has advanced to the Stanley Cup finals only once in its 26-year history.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/preview2002/
Happy and healthy, now playoff bound

Last season, the injury-plagued Caps finished six points behind the division-champ Canes and out of the playoffs. Ron Wilson was axed, and AHL coach of the year Bruce Cassidy was hired. To please high-maintenance superstar Jaromir Jagr (and fill a gaping hole at center), Robert Lang was plucked out of Pittsburgh and plopped down in D.C. next to his buddy. That shake-up alone should be worth six points.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/s...ge=2003pvw/was
Always regarded as somewhat of a coach killer, Jagr represents a great dilemma in the current NHL landscape. Most teams succeed by playing team defense and often young coaches, in order to protect their jobs, lean towards conservative offensive game plans to limit opponents' scoring chances.

Jagr, of course, is all about offense and creativity, and the fewer limitations the better. He also needs to be coddled, sometimes takes the night off and has been known to alienate teammates with his me-first attitude. And that's without delving into his quirky personal financial habits.

Cassidy will have to integrate him into his game plan in a way that maximizes his considerable talents without detracting from what the rest of the group is trying to accomplish. It's a complex dynamic and Cassidy isn't likely to have a long time to figure it out, for as much as Leonsis is determined to limit spending he certainly won't stand still if the team falters and jeopardizes potential playoff revenue.


Last edited by NYIsles1*: 06-12-2005 at 10:25 AM.
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Old
06-12-2005, 11:29 AM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYIsles1
There is no doubt it would take out ninety percent of the teams or more and you missed my point.

The Pens dumped him knowing it would take a 7 yr-77 million dolllar deal and not many teams could afford that deal thus the Pens couldn't get maximum return.

What my point is did Pittsburgh and the league know they needed to give him a seven year deal for seventy seven million? Did someone report these were his
long-term contract demands for teams interested in his service that summer. Again I never read anything along those lines.
Did a team know it would take 77M for 7? I don't know. But I think that any team could formulate a pretty good idea what it would take. And it would be in that ballpark.


Last edited by SingnBluesOnBroadway: 06-12-2005 at 11:35 AM.
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06-12-2005, 11:33 AM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marconius
The question is how many contenders so you think will have the cap space to add a 5 million dollar player?
That's a good question. And one that can't really be answered until the CBA is finalized and we all know how a cap will work.

I would think that if a team wanted Jagr they could move the prospects/picks plus a contract with less time and perhaps money on it to make cap room.

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06-12-2005, 12:05 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reveille!
What would you think Demitra will command in the "post-CBA" market? Will he hold out for at least 5 million or so?
All depends on the market and specifically the cap number (and how it will be applied).

If the question is Demitra's pure market value vs. Jagr's, were they both free agents today, I'd bet that Jagr would command more $$$. Deservedly.

Likewise, however, I think Demitra would probably have more bidders, for the reason that he would come somewhat cheaper.

Just my opinion.

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06-12-2005, 12:10 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
That's a good question. And one that can't really be answered until the CBA is finalized and we all know how a cap will work.

I would think that if a team wanted Jagr they could move the prospects/picks plus a contract with less time and perhaps money on it to make cap room.
Essentially, this is the only scenario under which I could see Jagr getting moved. At the deadline, a team moves 5 million off their roster in lessor assets, gets Jagr, and forks over a some mid round picks and a prospect to compensate the Rangers. But, there aren't going to be all that many teams that could put something like that together. So, the Ranger$ are still in a position where they have only one or two teams to trade with - and very little market pressure to get fair value.

The wild card in all this may be some serious injury. Let's say, for example, that a true contender looses their best goalscorer right before the deadline. They might then be motivated to make a move to bring in a gamebreaker like Jagr. This is the Oates/Flyers situation from a few years back.

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06-12-2005, 12:31 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Essentially, this is the only scenario under which I could see Jagr getting moved. At the deadline, a team moves 5 million off their roster in lessor assets, gets Jagr, and forks over a some mid round picks and a prospect to compensate the Rangers. But, there aren't going to be all that many teams that could put something like that together. So, the Ranger$ are still in a position where they have only one or two teams to trade with - and very little market pressure to get fair value.

The wild card in all this may be some serious injury. Let's say, for example, that a true contender looses their best goalscorer right before the deadline. They might then be motivated to make a move to bring in a gamebreaker like Jagr. This is the Oates/Flyers situation from a few years back.
First off, clear yer PM's. I have something to send over real quick. Something decent, anyway .

I think basically that the Rangers can realistically command two top prospects for him or a top prospect and a very high pick, at this point, as long as it's to a contender. Come the trade deadline there will be some teams desperately needing that player to push them over the top. I would pretty much bet that there would be 4 or so teams come that time with cap room who will be wanting that player that will put them over the top.

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06-12-2005, 12:51 PM
  #135
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As I've said before, you're being grossly unrealistic. Two top prospects is way, way too much to expect for this guy. You're not even in the right universe with your expectations.

I stand by my earlier prediction. In the off season, he is unmoveable. Not only does he have LIMITED trade value right now - he probably has none.

At the deadline, I think you're looking at a 2nd or 3rd rounder and a lessor prospect MAYBE a late first. But, that is about it.

And, you still haven't answered the basic question: Which contenders are going to have 5 million of payroll room on their rosters at the deadline? Answer: None. Unless SingnBluesOnBroadway's scenario takes place (which I see as a very reasonable posssibility), Jagr will remain untradeable until the bitter end. The only way the Rangers can move Jagr at all, is if they agree to take on an equal level of salary off of some other team's payroll. That is the only situation under which a playoff bound team could add 5 million.

Let's get concrete. Which are the four or five contending teams that will have 5 millon of payroll room, and are going to get into this hypotehtical bidding war for Jagr?

Of course, all this assumes that Jagr's full salary (including what Wash pays) does not count against the cap. I'm not at all convinced that is the case. We really don't know what the full CBA is going to stipulate. But, I think there is a good chance that his entire salary will influence the Ranger$ cap. In that case, Jagr is definitely untradeable.

I'm not interested in receiving further PMs from you, btw. I know you don't like NYISLES1, and I really couldn't care less.

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06-12-2005, 12:54 PM
  #136
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Hahaha, alright Darth. Just trying to smooth things over, but if you're not interested in that I can't really help it, now can I?

This thread was a disaster the moment people (myself included) started arguing. But, like I said, if you want to be unreasonable and not accept an appology, hey. Be my guest.

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06-12-2005, 02:18 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reveille!
Hahaha, alright Darth. Just trying to smooth things over, but if you're not interested in that I can't really help it, now can I?

This thread was a disaster the moment people (myself included) started arguing. But, like I said, if you want to be unreasonable and not accept an appology, hey. Be my guest.
Apology? You don't owe me any apology, my friend. I was annoyed by your treatment of NYISLES1, but you've never been anything but nice and respectful in your interactions with me. If anything, I should be the one apologizing for calling you a "homer." So, one reason I do know accept an apology from you is that you do not owe me one. I was the one in the wrong, not you.

And, to take this one step further, I will agree that some of your points make good sense. I think you are underestimating the significance of dollars in the post-CBA NHL. But, I also think that several posters in this thread are 1) Over stating Jagr's attitude "problem", 2) Under estimating his skills - which remain world class.

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06-12-2005, 03:01 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reveille!
First off, clear yer PM's. I have something to send over real quick. Something decent, anyway .

I think basically that the Rangers can realistically command two top prospects for him or a top prospect and a very high pick, at this point, as long as it's to a contender. Come the trade deadline there will be some teams desperately needing that player to push them over the top. I would pretty much bet that there would be 4 or so teams come that time with cap room who will be wanting that player that will put them over the top.
No one knows exactly what the post-cba world will look like, but as it looks now, you seem to fail to understand that there will be such low demand for Jagr, that the Rangers will have to take whatever is offered if they want to move him.

1. It seems reasonable to assume that only a contender will pick him up. There doesn't seem much point in a rebuilding team giving up picsk/prospects to acquire an aging Jagr. Agreed?

2. Of those contending teams, how many are contending because they will be/are already over the proposed cap. These teams will need to shed salary, not pick up more. Agreed?

3. Of the teams that remain (contending teams that will find themselves under the cap and able to add 5million in salary), how many will find a slightly lesser talented player (IE: Demitra) for less money as a better alternative?

4. Of the teams that remain (contending teams that will find themselves under the cap and able to add 5million in salary, and don't prefer a cheaper-but-almost-as-good player like Demitra), how many are willing to take on a player that undeniable has baggage and risk upsetting their contending roster?

I just don't see a lot of temas left to bid on Jagr. And with only 1 or 2 teams bidding, it seems that they, not the Rangers, will set the price. If the Ranger ask for a top pick/prospect, the buyer will just turn around and offer them the potential & promise of a high profile youngster like.....Fata.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I am in no way devaluing Jagr's skills and if skill was the only consideration in the trade, you're absolutely right, teams would be fools to pass him up.


Last edited by Marconius: 06-12-2005 at 03:07 PM.
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06-12-2005, 03:37 PM
  #139
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Marconius' post describes my take exactly. He just did it in a more lucid and compelling way that I ever could.

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06-13-2005, 12:29 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Like I said, your constant references to Yashin are irrelevant, petty, and (to be quite frank) pretty childish. Yashin has nothing to do with the conversation. Acquring him was a dumb move, but that doesn't make Jagr any more valuable on the trade market. If you'd like, we can sidetrack the conversation further, and I can bring up the numerous dumb deals the Rangers$ made in the last decade. But, unlike you, I'm am choosing to actually offer comments that have to do with the topic of the thread.


You'll have zero market for Jagr and there is no way you're going to walk away with first rounders and a prospect. That is unrealistic, to say the least.

And, btw, we're all assuming here that Jagr's FULL contract will not count against a team's cap. We don't really know that to be the case.
.
You can feel however you want but your the one running here to stick up for your little buddy NYIsles1 who in the very 1st response to this thread had to attempt to be funny and offer up Anson Carter for Jagr with the NYR picking up all salaries so when some clown Islander fan attempts to be funny and can't even pull that off I responded about what a joke it is coming from that team where they are in even a more pathtic spot then the NYR's are.

You don't like it too bad, mind your buisness then.NYIsles1 can speak for himself and he is one of the biggest Isle homer/NYR basher on the boards so when he wants to dish it he'll have to learn to take it.

His posts right in this thread prove just that.

As for the Jagr stuff and your point about us not knowing if his full salary will go against his existing teams cap or be split up just go back and reread as it was clearly stated that for the sake of this discussion it was going to assumed that Brooks' report was correct and the salary would be split so your point about us not knowing is irrelevant.

And nobody said numerous 1st's + prospects.

I clearly stated that I'd move him at the deadline when he has yet another yr paid for and one less on his contract for the acquiring team, and at that point teams needs will be clearly identified with injuries and team shortcomings over the 1st 3/4 of the season at which point Jagr at 4.5-5 million with only 2 more yrs left IMO would bring back a midround 1st and a decent prospect who has a legit shot at being a 3rd liner/5-6th dman.

Time will tell if there will or won't be a market come March and that's even if Slats puts him on the market which I hope he does.


Last edited by JR#9*: 06-13-2005 at 12:38 PM.
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06-13-2005, 12:47 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9
You can feel however you want but your the one running here to stick up for your little buddy NYIsles1 who in the very 1st response to this thread had to attempt to be funny and offer up Anson Carter for Jagr with the NYR picking up all salaries so when some clown Islander fan attempts to be funny and can't even pull that off I responded about what a joke it is coming from that team where they are in even a more pathtic spot then the NYR's are.

You don't like it too bad, mind your buisness then.NYIsles1 can speak for himself and he is one of the biggest Isle homer/NYR basher on the boards so when he wants to dish it he'll have to learn to take it.

His posts right in this thread prove just that.

As for the Jagr stuff and your point about us not knowing if his full salary will go against his existing teams cap or be split up just go back and reread as it was clearly stated that for the sake of this discussion it was going to assumed that Brooks' report was correct and the salary would be split so your point about us not knowing is irrelevant.

And nobody said numerous 1st's + prospects.

I clearly stated that I'd move him at the deadline when he has yet another yr paid for and one less on his contract for the acquiring team, and at that point teams needs will be clearly identified with injuries and team shortcomings over the 1st 3/4 of the season at which point Jagr at 4.5-5 million with only 2 more yrs left IMO would bring back a midround 1st and a decent prospect who has a legit shot at being a 3rd liner/5-6th dman.

Time will tell if there will or won't be a market come March and that's even if Slats puts him on the market which I hope he does.
You brought up Yashin constantly in your response to me. Your response to NYISLES1 were petty and vindicative too, but that is besides the issue. The point is that YASHIN HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH JAGR's trade value. Yeah, the Yashin deal was stupid and will haunt the Isles franchise for years to come (as I predicted it would), but that doesn't even begin to have a hint to do with Jagr's market value.

So, how about this: everytime you respond to any thread about the trade value of an Islander with one of your tedious comments I'll bring up all the moronic moves the Rangers have made. Would you like me to list all the ludicrous signings, moving away youth for nothing (remember Doug Weight, Norstrom, Amonte, etc)? Would that have anything to do with Anson Carter, Jagr, etc?

You're basically acting like a elementary school girl here. You're being called on Jagr's trade value, and your responding with a few petty commments about Yashin to try and get even. That is not only childish - it is low class.

Here is what Reville wrote "I think basically that the Rangers can realistically command two top prospects for him or a top prospect and a very high pick". This is exactly what you claimed "nobody said." Perhaps reading is not your forte.

And, finally, you can assume that Jagr's full salary won't count against the Ranger$' cap all you want - but there is no evidence to that regard other than a comment by the always well-informed (not!) Larry Brooks. The Ranger$ pay Jagr's contract, and then receive some matching funds from Washington. Ultimately Jagr's contract is on the book for the Ranger$ and (in all likelihood) will count against their cap.


Last edited by Darth Milbury: 06-13-2005 at 12:54 PM.
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06-13-2005, 12:57 PM
  #142
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