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The Luongo Thread: Part LXMIV - Cant stop. Wont stop.

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Old
07-03-2013, 07:30 PM
  #426
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Why'd they have to fly to Florida? I thought Luongo was chained to the foundation of Rogers Arena...

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07-03-2013, 07:32 PM
  #427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
This is a highly sleazy move on Gillis/Aquilini's part. Instead of being up front with Luongo and ask him before they traded Schneider if he'd be ok with coming back after all this mess, they wait until after they trade Schneider and then lay a ton of pressure on him to forget everything and come back pleased as punch.
Maybe they didn't ask because they didn't want to put him in the drivers seat .... again.

Why ask a question if you know you're not going to like the answer? Sure it's a wack at Luongo's ego, but he's in a great opportunity to come back and kick some serious behind and prove the nay sayers wrong.

Honestly, I think all this shows Gillis's immaturity as a GM, but hopefully he'll recover from this gaff and become a better manager for it. I simply don't understand how a Canucks fan could wish the franchise would fail moving forward to vindicate their hate for Gillis. It's absurd in the most comical of expressions.

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07-03-2013, 07:33 PM
  #428
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You mean like in '05-'06? That was an awful team to watch. The only way the goalie can be "the backbone" is if the rest of team is going to be poor.
Boston this year? LA last year? Boston the year before that?

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07-03-2013, 07:54 PM
  #429
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What did Lu do? AV and Gillis chose Schneider and pretty much had Luongo out the door for over a year, because he was willing to do what Gillis wanted he's now complicit?
Exit interview in 2012 he said he'd be willing to go.

That right there hurts his value.

It's been reported (I have no clue if its true) he also invoked his no trade clause to nix a deal.

Kept saying to the media its time to move on, further hurting the teams ability to move him for anything that helps.

Lu should have kept his yap shut all along.

I'm not saying Gillis is innocent because he is the one who gave Schneider a starter's salary when IMO it wasn't needed.

I know y2k agrees that the big misplay in this whole debacle was going back to Schneider in game 4 against the Kings after he lost game 3. The straw that broke the camels back so to speak.

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07-03-2013, 07:54 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by west in the east View Post
And yet the league approved the contracts. I think one should have a right to go by the letter of the law as it was written at the time. These contract met the letter of the CBA, as was confirmed when they were approved. To retroactively penalize these contracts is counter to the principles of fundamental justice/ rule of law and goes to show how much of a horse and donkey show the league is. To let Burke purse a strategy through CBA negotiations to get players under those contracts for less to fix his **** team is ridiculous and a conflict of interest.
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
They approved them grudgingly, but they were always going to try to close this loophole.

This came down to Gillis' incomparable hubris, and somehow thinking he was better/smarter than everyone else.

You do the crime, you do the time.
Except there was no crime. The contract was perfectly legal; ethical? There was a loophole and some teams exploited it.

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07-03-2013, 07:56 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
No, they didn't break any laws or anything...but it was sleazy.
No, it wasn't sleazy but neither was it great. What's done is done and while there is certainly some value in discussing how to avoid this kind of situation, ad hominem attacks on either side don't add anything to the topic.

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07-03-2013, 07:58 PM
  #432
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Maybe they didn't ask because they didn't want to put him in the drivers seat .... again.

Why ask a question if you know you're not going to like the answer? Sure it's a wack at Luongo's ego, but he's in a great opportunity to come back and kick some serious behind and prove the nay sayers wrong.

Honestly, I think all this shows Gillis's immaturity as a GM, but hopefully he'll recover from this gaff and become a better manager for it. I simply don't understand how a Canucks fan could wish the franchise would fail moving forward to vindicate their hate for Gillis. It's absurd in the most comical of expressions.
Are you quoting the right person? I didn't ask a question in the quote you responded to and I never once wished the franchise would fail...ever. And I don't hate Gillis, I just think he (and Aquilini) ****ed up this situation royally.

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07-03-2013, 08:02 PM
  #433
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Are you quoting the right person? I didn't ask a question in the quote you responded to and I never once wished the franchise would fail...ever. And I don't hate Gillis, I just think he (and Aquilini) ****ed up this situation royally.
He's referring to your assertion that they should have asked Luongo if he was ok with them trading Schneider and keeping him.

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07-03-2013, 08:09 PM
  #434
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Except there was no crime. The contract was perfectly legal; ethical? There was a loophole and some teams exploited it.
Yes, but in order to avoid the ire of the league when those deals were signed the teams had to steadfastly maintain that they expected the players to play every year of their long term contracts or else it would be clear cap evasion. Gillis had to tell the league with a straight face that he expected Luongo to be in the league until he was 43, and if that happens (or he is forced to retire due to injury) then no penalty is applied and there's no problem.

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07-03-2013, 08:25 PM
  #435
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Yes, but in order to avoid the ire of the league when those deals were signed the teams had to steadfastly maintain that they expected the players to play every year of their long term contracts or else it would be clear cap evasion. Gillis had to tell the league with a straight face that he expected Luongo to be in the league until he was 43, and if that happens (or he is forced to retire due to injury) then no penalty is applied and there's no problem.
I don't have a problem with cap recapture or it being back dated. I do have some issues with the implementation

1. Why not give teams/players a chance to restructure the deals. They would still have to repay the full cap. Ie split deals into 2 parts or maybe the put Luongo/Hossa cap hits etc up to $6.67m cap hit and remove the tail. The idea is pull the full amount by on terms that make more sense under the new CBA.

2. Why where teams that traded players before the new CBA exempted from recapture? Their just as guilty, why make special cases. I doesn't affect many teams if any seriously but still.

3. Why is it only Long Term deals (7+ years) that seem affected by the cap recapture hit (as far as I can see from he wording)? If my reading the rules is right and the Sedins want to play 3 more years we could offer them a 6 year deal $6m $6m $6m $4m $3m $3m - cap hit $4.6m. They retire after three. Yah win, Bettman/Daly look like fools.

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07-03-2013, 09:34 PM
  #436
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Exit interview in 2012 he said he'd be willing to go.

That right there hurts his value.

It's been reported (I have no clue if its true) he also invoked his no trade clause to nix a deal.

Kept saying to the media its time to move on, further hurting the teams ability to move him for anything that helps.

Lu should have kept his yap shut all along.
Man, I usually really like your posts, but I don't see how this is remotely on Luongo. Aside from declaring you want out doesn't seem to even impact trade value much when it comes to star players (see: Nash, Carter), his comments were made after the team made it obvious Schneider was #1 going forward. His comments through summer 2012 were entirely responding to direct media questions asking him about leaving, all he ever said was he would do what was best for the team even if it meant leaving. After Schneider possessed the starter role in 2013 is when the more direct comments came.

What killed his value wasn't anything he said, it was the new cba and being forced into a backup role for one year and two playoffs. He was the model professional through the entire thing... as he should be making 7 mil a year on a lifetime deal. The outcome here isn't on Luongo.
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And I don't hate Gillis, I just think he (and Aquilini) ****ed up this situation royally.
Agreed 100%.

He tried to trade Luongo for a year, embarrassed the guy as he did so, then failed in the end, was forced to trade Schneider to get some sort of return, and now has to go back to Luongo with hat in hand and pretend this was his plan all along.

Sloppy management, even if the return was decent in the end.

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07-03-2013, 10:00 PM
  #437
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Does anyone have more information on the deal that Luongo apparently nixed? I had heard nothing about this.

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07-03-2013, 10:03 PM
  #438
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Does anyone have more information on the deal that Luongo apparently nixed? I had heard nothing about this.
The rumours were mixed at best; I don't think anything definitive came out.

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07-03-2013, 10:06 PM
  #439
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Man, I usually really like your posts, but I don't see how this is remotely on Luongo. Aside from declaring you want out doesn't seem to even impact trade value much when it comes to star players (see: Nash, Carter), his comments were made after the team made it obvious Schneider was #1 going forward. His comments through summer 2012 were entirely responding to direct media questions asking him about leaving, all he ever said was he would do what was best for the team even if it meant leaving. After Schneider possessed the starter role in 2013 is when the more direct comments came.
Appreciate that, so I'll respond.

I'm not saying it's a 100% on Luongo but he played a part, you have to see that?

I'm not sure how it was clear or obvious that Schneider was #1 though after 2 playoff starts. Yes those two starts (namely game 4 after he lost game 3) may have signaled a different direction or a changing of the guard, but I can be sure it wasn't obvious to me.

I was and still am angry about that game 4 start going to Schneids (kudos to him for winning it), it was the genesis to the what has amounted to a giant debacle.

Luongo, while being a professional throughout, gave Vancouver very little leverage with how things went down. Luongo didn't have to spout off to the papers (I know we love the transparency, but it definitely didn't have the Canucks' best interest in mind).

He may have tried to say all the right things, but he could have been more vague. Terms like "it's time to move on" and other such statements only painted Gillis into a tighter corner which obviously affected the value in a trade as he wasn't moved.

Now whether you want to believe Luongo exercised his NTC or not is another story. To be fair, I'm not sure whether I believe it happened or not, but since it's been suggested it's something that should be discussed at the very least. If Luongo scuttled a trade because it wasn't to Florida he should only be blaming himself.

IMO Gillis probably did all he could to appease Roberto's wishes to trade him, but when it didn't make sense for the organization, they realized moving Schneider for a top 10 pick is better than paying Roberto $20 plus million to go play for someone else and beat his team.


To the bold, goalies are a different animal than wingers. Age also played a factor in terms of contracts as well.

Quote:
What killed his value wasn't anything he said, it was the new cba and being forced into a backup role for one year and two playoffs. He was the model professional through the entire thing... as he should be making 7 mil a year on a lifetime deal. The outcome here isn't on Luongo.

Agreed 100%.

He tried to trade Luongo for a year, embarrassed the guy as he did so, then failed in the end, was forced to trade Schneider to get some sort of return, and now has to go back to Luongo with hat in hand and pretend this was his plan all along.

Sloppy management, even if the return was decent in the end.
I agree the CBA change was the determining factor here and it was "sloppy management".

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07-03-2013, 11:17 PM
  #440
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Appreciate that, so I'll respond.

I'm not saying it's a 100% on Luongo but he played a part, you have to see that?

I'm not sure how it was clear or obvious that Schneider was #1 though after 2 playoff starts. Yes those two starts (namely game 4 after he lost game 3) may have signaled a different direction or a changing of the guard, but I can be sure it wasn't obvious to me.
I saw Schneider starting the first game of the 2013 season as the Canucks management making a pretty definitive statement; I definitely agree that it could have gone either way after the 2012 playoffs.

Quote:
I was and still am angry about that game 4 start going to Schneids (kudos to him for winning it), it was the genesis to the what has amounted to a giant debacle.

Luongo, while being a professional throughout, gave Vancouver very little leverage with how things went down. Luongo didn't have to spout off to the papers (I know we love the transparency, but it definitely didn't have the Canucks' best interest in mind).

He may have tried to say all the right things, but he could have been more vague. Terms like "it's time to move on" and other such statements only painted Gillis into a tighter corner which obviously affected the value in a trade as he wasn't moved.
I agree with most of this, it's just the last sentence that I disagree with. I have a hard time seeing how his comments significantly impacted his value.

I think timelines are important. As soon as Schneider started the first game in 2013, it was assumed Luongo would be the guy moved. I don't think anything Luongo said after the start of the 2013 regular season impacted his value negatively; if anything he said lowered his value it would have had to be over summer 2012. But in summer 2012 we had great leverage; even though everyone knew we had to move a goalie (probably Luongo), we also had a full year to do it before getting desperate, whereas other teams needed a goalie immediately for the full season in between. I don't think the comments really hurt our leverage at that point in time.

Quote:
Now whether you want to believe Luongo exercised his NTC or not is another story. To be fair, I'm not sure whether I believe it happened or not, but since it's been suggested it's something that should be discussed at the very least. If Luongo scuttled a trade because it wasn't to Florida he should only be blaming himself.

IMO Gillis probably did all he could to appease Roberto's wishes to trade him, but when it didn't make sense for the organization, they realized moving Schneider for a top 10 pick is better than paying Roberto $20 plus million to go play for someone else and beat his team.
I agree with all of this; at the end of the day Lu+top 10 pick in a deep draft is better than Schneider and nothing. Lu is still a great goalie and will still be top 5-10 for the next 3-4 years with the potential for more, which is basically the same as the current core.

Going by the rumoured trades, Bozak+Kadri+2nd by the end of summer 2012 versus Scrivens and two 2nd's at the trade deadline, I think the main impact on Luongo's value was how he was handled (+ the cba) over what he actually said, and I also think Gillis pulls the trigger on the Bozak trade without thinking twice if he has the chance to go back; the drop in value from here on out that led to Schneider being traded is on MG for not reading the situation correctly.

Continuing with the rumours, if Luongo did veto a trade, officially or unofficially, then pretty much all of the blame goes on him and all of this is out the window. I currently place most of the blame on Gillis for misreading the market and not acting quickly enough, and the rest on the cba and AV for his starting goalie choices (right or wrong for winning the games; they definitely hurt his value) and going further back, for letting Lu get ventilated in consecutive playoffs without pulling him.

I think the worst part of it (and the strongest component of poor management, to me) is how the relationship between management
and Lu seems totally shattered.

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07-04-2013, 06:13 AM
  #441
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Not really. Vigneault pulled Luongo at the right time in game 6 of the SCF but it still rightly went down as a brutal effort from Luongo.
True, but I just think there's been occasions where the team was getting lit up (8-3 loss against LA in April 2010, 7-2 loss to Edmonton this year) and there was no mercy pull coming. I thought he should have been pulled in Game 3 against Boston too after it got to 6. And definitely after it got to 7.

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I don't think we should underestimate what will likely be a pretty toxic situation if things go badly. At the best of times most Canuck fans and media scapegoat Luongo for the team's troubles; how's it going to look if he has another poor year and Schneider rips it up for the Devils? No player deserves the kind of ****storm that's going to create.
My impression is that people here are starting to come around on what really was the issue in the past 3 series losses (other than injuries). At least, that's what it seems to me. Or maybe that's just me being hopeful?

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07-04-2013, 07:02 AM
  #442
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I'm very confident in him, hopefully he can put this behind him and come back.

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07-04-2013, 07:45 AM
  #443
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Why would Luongo not report to camp this year? The same speculation was spewed by the media last year too when Gillis failed to trade Luongo but he still showed up and played as the backup with utmost professionalism. He might still push for a trade privately but he won't hold out especially this season considering it is the Olympic year. Do you think he will risk getting suspended to sit at home and miss out a chance to retain his number 1 goalie status on Team Canada? If anything, he will play with more focus this year.

And why would any fan want their number 1 goalie to hold out just to spite the GM? It's absurd.
Pretty much.

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07-04-2013, 07:58 AM
  #444
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I fully expect Luongo to come in and rip it up this year.

I also expect either Lack or Eriksson to come in and do a solid job as a back-up.

People also need to remember that Schneider will "back-up" Brodeur this year. He will essentially be doing what he did with Luongo last year in a 50/50 role but Brodeur is still the #1 till he retires.

People obviously were blind-sided by the Schneider trade but IMO there wasn't much Gillis could do with Luongo at that point.

Just hoping Horvat turns into the player everyone hopes he will be. Unfortunately it's tough for a lot of people to look that far down the road when the Canucks window is now.

Here's hoping for the best.

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07-04-2013, 08:08 AM
  #445
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Sorry, but Gillis and Co. took this to a level beyond just giving a "heads up".
Canucks have done every thing reasonable they could to move him. Really want to go the last step? About all that is left is to apply the final humiliation by putting him on waivers. Sulking because you got waived? Still here? unhappy? being a distraction? Go play for the Comets.

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07-04-2013, 08:34 AM
  #446
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Canucks have done every thing reasonable they could to move him. Really want to go the last step? About all that is left is to apply the final humiliation by putting him on waivers. Sulking because you got waived? Still here? unhappy? being a distraction? Go play for the Comets.
You have no clue what they did, or didn't do, to move Luongo.

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07-04-2013, 08:43 AM
  #447
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You have no clue what they did, or didn't do, to move Luongo.
The price was 2 late seconds at the deadline. Could only have gone down since then given there were no takers. Could still not move him after the playoffs. Given we are now pretty much at waivers stage if Aquiluni says no salary back.


Last edited by me2: 07-04-2013 at 09:08 AM.
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07-04-2013, 08:44 AM
  #448
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No, it wasn't sleazy but neither was it great. What's done is done and while there is certainly some value in discussing how to avoid this kind of situation, ad hominem attacks on either side don't add anything to the topic.
It was sleazy. Period. Whether or not he should have been asked or not you can debate...just dropping this on him unexpectedly after all this time is pure sleaze.

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He's referring to your assertion that they should have asked Luongo if he was ok with them trading Schneider and keeping him.
I guess...no idea where he got the other nonsense from though.

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07-04-2013, 08:52 AM
  #449
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The price was 2 late seconds at the deadline. Could only have gone down since they were no takers. Could still not move him after the playoffs. Where now given we are pretty much at waivers stage if Aquiluni says no salary back.
You don't know that for sure...it's still just speculation. But even if it were true that they were offered 2 2nd rounders, they should have understood at the market wasn't likely going to get any better and should have moved him then...or at the very least, been open to the idea of trading Schneider at that time so this wouldn't have been a complete mess thrown into Luongo's lap.

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07-04-2013, 09:11 AM
  #450
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You don't know that for sure...it's still just speculation. But even if it were true that they were offered 2 2nd rounders, they should have understood at the market wasn't likely going to get any better and should have moved him then...or at the very least, been open to the idea of trading Schneider at that time so this wouldn't have been a complete mess thrown into Luongo's lap.
2 2nds was the asking price. Toronto wanted big salary/cap retention with that.

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