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Research Thread for NHL Award and All-star Voting

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Old
08-13-2010, 02:15 AM
  #401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
But the reason they never got the opportunity is because they weren't as good as the guys in front of them, unless you think that the coaches and GMs were too stupid to realize it. I'd be very, very surprised if there was actually a player who may have unseated a Howe, Hull, Beliveau, etc. for an MVP or scoring title but was stuck on the second line his whole career.

More players definitely have a chance to put up big point totals, but very rarely Art Ross-contending totals. That's still pretty much reserved for the Crosby's and Ovechkin's of the world, who I'm sure all will agree would be winning these awards in any era. I know Sedin did it this year, but as I showed earlier in the thread, this was pretty much an anomaly.
Chances that they beat Howe, Hull, Beliveau are indeed slim, but players improve differently in different conditions. In general I believe that really talented players would have taken their awards (still probably not all of them as 2010 shows). But it has massive effect on top 10 finishes, that people really love to count. Finishing top 10 in scoring in 1950, 1980 and 2010 are very different things in my eyes.

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08-13-2010, 03:50 AM
  #402
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Originally Posted by lazerbullet View Post
Chances that they beat Howe, Hull, Beliveau are indeed slim, but players improve differently in different conditions. In general I believe that really talented players would have taken their awards (still probably not all of them as 2010 shows). But it has massive effect on top 10 finishes, that people really love to count. Finishing top 10 in scoring in 1950, 1980 and 2010 are very different things in my eyes.
That's pretty much what I think. Small effect on trophies, but large effect on top-10 finishes. One should note that this also means that some 2nd tier players in the O6 era are underrated. For instance, a player like Henri Richard has been mentioned as stuck behind Beliveau. Who knows what would have happened if he was the go-to guy on a team.

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08-25-2010, 03:30 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
All-Star Team Voting for 1938-39

This is from the Globe & Mail (Monday, March 27, 1939, page 17). There were 34 voters this year.

The newspaper notes that Eddie Shore has earned 8 all-star spots in 9 years; all but one of those were on the first team. The paper notes that no player has done as well as Shore in all-star voting. Keep in mind that several stars (ie Morenz, Clancy, Lalonde, Boucher and Shore himself) have had all or part of their careers prior to 1931, when all-star voting began.

Unfortunately there are virtually no details this year. Frank Brimsek becomes the first rookie named to the first all-star goalie position. Shore and Clapper on the first team is "not surprising", but there was "spirited voting in favor of" Art Coulter, who made it to the second team. The paper noted that the first-team forward trio (Apps, Drillon and Hart-winner Blake) is solid ("You can't find any kick on that score"). Really, these are all the details that are available for 1938-39.

Interestingly, Toe Blake's Hart trophy receives virtually no coverage. (Wednesday, April 19, 1939, page 33). Toe Blake led the league in scoring despite the fact that Montreal finished 6th (out of 7). The newspaper (casually) mentions two reasons that Blake might have won. First, Blake scored a lot despite playing on a weak team (I think they were implying that Blake would have scored even more on a stronger team). Second, the newspaper credits Blake for keeping the Canadiens in contention all year long. (Then again, if 6 of 7 teams make the playoffs, and you're 7 pts ahead of last place, how crucial was Blake?)
Montreal Gazette: 3-24-1939

voting is divided into 1st team and alternate team.


1st Team

Goal
Brimsek, BOS, 15; Robertson, NYA, 7; Thompson, DET, 7; Kerr, NYR, 5

Right Defense
Shore, BOS, 26; Clapper, BOS, 3; Coulter, NYR, 2; Buswell, MON, 1; Seibert, CHI, 1; Crawford, BOS, 1

Left Defense
Clapper, BOS, 7?; Coulter, NYR, 6; Shore, BOS, 4; Seibert, CHI, 3; Siebert, MON, 2; Heller, NYR, 2; M Patrick, NYR, 1; Portland, BOS, 1; Goodfellow, DET, 1; Horner, TOR, 1; Pratt, NYR, 1

34 total votes, so Clapper should have 12.


Centre
Apps, TOR, 28; Schmidt, BOS, 3; N Colville, NYR, 2; Barry, DET, 1

Right Wing
Drillon, TOR, 27; Bauer, BOS, 2; Shibicky, NYR, 1; March, CHI, 1; Blake, MON, 1; Colville, NYR, 1; Carr, NYA, 1

Left Wing
Blake, MON, 27; Gottselig, CHI, 5; Schriner, NYA, 1; Dumart,
BOS, 1

Coach
Dutton, NYA, 15; Ross, BOS, 14; Patrick, NYR, 5



Alternate Team

Goal
Kerr, NYR, 10; Brimsek, BOS, 9; Robertson, NYA, 5; Thompson, BOS (should be DET), 5; Broda, TOR, 4

Right Defense
Coulter, NYR, 12; Seibert, CHI, 11; Shore, BOS, 2; Buswell, MON, 2; Portland, BOS, 2

Left Defense
Clapper, BOS, 6; Portland, BOS, 6; Siebert, MON, 3; Bowman, DET, 3; Seibert, CHI, 3; Evans, MON, 2; Crawford, BOS, 2; Goodfellow, DET, 2; Horner, TOR, 2; Coulter, NYR, 2; Heller, NYR, 1; Buswell, MON, 1; Wiebe, CHI, 1

Centre
N Colville, NYR, 14; Schmidt, BOS, 7; Apps, TOR, 4; Barry, DET, 4; Smith, NYR, 2; Watson, NYR, 1; Gottselig, CHI, 1; Cowley, BOS, 1

Right Wing
Bauer, BOS, 9; Shibicky, NYR, 6; Drillon, TOR, 3; Dillon, NYR, 2; Hextall, NYR, 2; Gagnon, MON, 2; Schriner, NYA, 2; Dumart, BOS, 2; Stewart, NYA, 1; Watson, NYR, 1; Carr, NYA, 1; N Colville, NYR, 1

Left Wing
Gottselig, CHI, 8; Schriner, NYA, 8; Shibicky, NYR, 6; Anderson, NYA, 4; Dumart, BOS, 4; Blake MON, 3; Sands, BOS, 1; M Colville, NYR, 1

Coach
Ross, BOS, 14; Patrick, NYR, 12; Dutton, NYA, 4

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Old
08-25-2010, 06:11 PM
  #404
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That's some really strange voting, nik. At first I thought I was looking at the overall results and thought "man, those are some weak 2nd team results, with 2-3 votes apiece". Then I thought they determined the first team and then voted on the second team after. But the first team guys got 2nd team votes too. So aren't we really looking at a detailed breakdown of first and 2nd place votes?

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08-28-2010, 02:53 AM
  #405
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'32 Hart

Ottawa Citizen of 3-25-1932 says morenz won by a single vote over ching johnson, that 3rd was hooley smith and 4th was red dutton. no numbers for votes provided. i looked in several other papers but i did not find the numbers.

it says hart trophy is "for the player adjudged most useful to his club."


Ottawa Citizen says himes, gottselig and ward followed primeau and boucher in lady byng voting. post 102 of this thread says ward was 4th and gottselig 5th, but Ottawa Citizen may not have listed them in order.


Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
That's some really strange voting, nik. At first I thought I was looking at the overall results and thought "man, those are some weak 2nd team results, with 2-3 votes apiece". Then I thought they determined the first team and then voted on the second team after. But the first team guys got 2nd team votes too. So aren't we really looking at a detailed breakdown of first and 2nd place votes?
i think so.

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12-12-2010, 08:22 AM
  #406
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I would probably find the answer from somewhere in this thread, but maybe someone knows this just like this:

Who is the last rookie Norris Trophy finalist?

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12-27-2010, 12:29 AM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Jaymond Flurrie View Post
I would probably find the answer from somewhere in this thread, but maybe someone knows this just like this:

Who is the last rookie Norris Trophy finalist?
bobby orr in '67 was the only rookie norris finalist. may have been others if the norris had existed before '54.

jacques laperriere was 4th in '64. ray bourque was 4th in '80.

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01-29-2011, 03:08 AM
  #408
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Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
1959-60
HART: (90-127)
1. Gordie Howe, Det RW 118 (59-59)
2. Bobby Hull, Chi LW 55 (31-24)
3. Glenn Hall, Chi G 44 (0-44)
4. Jean Beliveau, Mtl C 28
5. Bert Olmstead, Tor LW 27
windsor daily star, may 6, 1960, page 37, lists the other players, but does not give the 1st half and 2nd half votes, other than for howe, hull and hall.

bronco horvath: 20
terry sawchuk: 7
doug harvey: 7
allan stanley: 4
andy bathgate: 3
henri richard: 3
bob pulford: 3
bernie geoffrion: 1
doug mohns: 1

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01-29-2011, 06:27 AM
  #409
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If we have 3 voters per team with a 5-3-1 point system, and 1st and 2nd half votes we should get 324 points. I count 321 points, so there are 3 points missing.

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02-02-2011, 05:02 AM
  #410
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basic '56 all star voting
from 4-18-1956 Saskatoon Star-Phoenix

G: Plante: 119, Hall: 84
D: Harvey: 177, Gadsby: 116, Kelly: 114, Johnson: 81
C: Beliveau: 180, Sloan: 84
RW: Richard: 151, Howe: 128
LW: Lindsay: 134, Olmstead: 94

Gadsby beating Kelly was a bit of a surprise, and was attributed to Kelly's games as LW. i think kelly played 26 games at LW.

1-18-1956 Montreal Gazette has mid-season AS voting, but it is very hard to read. Beliveau was a unanimous selection in both halves. Harvey had 89 in the 1st half.

Worsley was 2nd AS at mid-season, but was passed by Hall. Gadsby passed Kelly for 1st AS in the 2nd half. other positions were the same in both halves.


basic '57 all star voting
from 4-23-1957 Montreal Gazette, page 21

G: Hall: 121, Plante: 85
D: Harvey: 172, Kelly: 98, Flaman: 79, Gadsby: 77
C: Beliveau: 141, Litzenberger: 43
RW: Howe: 176, Richard: 69
LW: Lindsay: 156, Chevrefils: 55

i did not find mid-season voting.

Flaman passed Mohns in the 2nd half. Chevrefils passed Moore for 2nd LW. Hall passed Sawchuk, who became ill and apparently retired for a time, due to "nerves".


basic '58 all star voting
from 4-30-1958 Montreal Gazette, page 24. 1-14-1958 Saskatoon Star-Phoenix has mid-season AS voting, and i subtracted to get the 2nd half.

G: Hall: 108 (65-43), Plante: 104 (44-60)
D: Harvey: 180 (90-90), Gadsby: 168 (87-81), Flaman: 54 (29-25), Pronovost: 46 (19-27)
C: Henri Richard: 176 (87-89), Beliveau: 80 (42-38)
RW: Howe: 155 (89-66), Bathgate: 82 (?)
LW: Moore: 161 (71-90), Camille Henry: 62 (?)

Nashua (New Hampshire) Telegraph said that the 2nd half selections duplicated the 1st half selections, but Saskatoon Star-Phoenix and Calgary Herald say that Maurice Richard was 2nd RW in the 1st half (29 votes), and that Fleming Mackell was 2nd LW in the 1st half (25 votes).

Ron Stewart of TML tied Pronovost at 19 for 2nd AS d-man in the 1st half.



1st AS's got $1000 and 2nd AS's got $500.

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Old
02-05-2011, 03:55 PM
  #411
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From 1946-47 to 1949-50, the six coaches voted for the year-end all-stars. They were given three votes, weighted 5-3-1 points. Coaches couldn't vote for players on their own team, so a unanimous selection was 25 points (5 points * 5 votes).


1949-50

FIRST TEAM
Center Sid Abel, Det 21 (3-2-0)
Right Wing Maurice Richard, Mtl 25 (5-0-0)
Left Wing Ted Lindsay, Det 25 (5-0-0)

Defense Gus Mortson, Tor 21 (3-2-0)
Ken Reardon, Mtl 20 (4-0-0)
Goaltender Bill Durnan, Mtl 21 (3-2-0)

SECOND TEAM
Center Ted Kennedy, Tor 16 (2-2-0)
Right Wing Gordie Howe, Det 17 (1-4-0)
Left Wing Tony Leswick, NYR 14 (1-3-0)
Defense Leo Reise, Det 17 (2-2-1)
Red Kelly, Det 17 (2-2-1)
Goaltender Chuck Rayner, NYR 17 (2-2-1)

1948-49

FIRST TEAM
Center Sid Abel, Det 21 (3-2-0)
Right Wing Maurice Richard, Mtl 23 (4-1-0)
Left Wing Roy Conacher, Chi 19 (2-3-0)
Defense Bill Quackenbush, Det 25 (5-0-0)
Jack Stewart, Det 17 (2-2-1)
Goaltender Bill Durnan, Mtl 25 (5-0-0)

SECOND TEAM
Center Doug Bentley, Chi 17 (2-2-1)
Right Wing Gordie Howe, Det 11 (1-2-0)
Left Wing Ted Lindsay, Det 17 (2-2-1)
Defense Glen Harmon, Mtl 15 (2-1-2)
Ken Reardon, Mtl 15 (2-1-2)
Goaltender Chuck Rayner, NYR 10 (0-3-1)


1947-48

FIRST TEAM
Center Elmer Lach, Mtl 23 (4-1-0)
Right Wing Maurice Richard, Mtl 21 (3-2-0)
Left Wing Ted Lindsay, Det 25 (5-0-0)
Defense Bill Quackenbush, Det 23 (4-1-0)
Jack Stewart, Det 21 (3-2-0)
Goaltender Turk Broda, Tor 19 (3-1-1)

SECOND TEAM
Center Buddy O'Connor, NYR 10 (1-1-2)
Right Wing Bud Poile, Chi 18 (3-1-0)
Left Wing Gaye Stewart, Chi 10 (1-1-2)
Defense Ken Reardon, Mtl 19 (2-3-0)
Neil Colville, NYR 15 (2-1-1)
Goaltender Frank Brimsek, Bos 19 (2-3-0)


1946-47

FIRST TEAM
Center Milt Schmidt, Bos 14 (4-1-0)
Right Wing Maurice Richard, Mtl 15 (5-0-0)
Left Wing Doug Bentley, Chi 10 (2-2-0)
Defense Ken Reardon, Mtl 13 (4-0-1)
Butch Bouchard, Mtl 12 (2-3-0)
Goaltender Bill Durnan, Mtl 13 (4-0-1)

SECOND TEAM
Center Max Bentley, Chi 10 (1-3-1)
Right Wing Bobby Bauer, Bos 11 (1-4-0)
Left Wing Woody Dumart, Bos 9 (1-2-2)
Defense Jack Stewart, Det 11 (2-2-1)
Bill Quackenbush, Det 11 (2-2-1)
Goaltender Frank Brimsek, Bos 8 (1-1-3)

Unanimous all-stars are bolded & italicized

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02-27-2011, 02:21 PM
  #412
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I'm a little surprised that Bure and Gretzky were rated so low in 1994 for the Hart Trophy. Gretzky didn't even get a 3rd place vote and wasn't even among the top 15 despite winning the scoring title. Bure finished 12th despite his best regular season IMO.

I know L.A. was an awful team that year so perhaps the voters felt it was necessary not to reward Gretzky with the Hart votes but you'd think Bure would have been higher. I know 1994 had some other stiff competition though.

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02-27-2011, 02:27 PM
  #413
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Gretzky was also a huge minus player in 1994. I think it's the only time the Art Ross winner never got a first place vote.

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02-27-2011, 05:11 PM
  #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I'm a little surprised that Bure and Gretzky were rated so low in 1994 for the Hart Trophy. Gretzky didn't even get a 3rd place vote and wasn't even among the top 15 despite winning the scoring title. Bure finished 12th despite his best regular season IMO.

I know L.A. was an awful team that year so perhaps the voters felt it was necessary not to reward Gretzky with the Hart votes but you'd think Bure would have been higher. I know 1994 had some other stiff competition though.
Ted Lindsay not being top 5 in hart voting for 1950 surprises me even more. He won the art ross by over 10%, but he's not one of the top 5 players, lol.

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02-27-2011, 05:17 PM
  #415
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Ted Lindsay not being top 5 in hart voting for 1950 surprises me even more. He won the art ross by over 10%, but he's not one of the top 5 players, lol.
Lindsay was 9 points ahead of linemate Sid Abel, and Abel had far more defensive responsibilities.

When the Production Line was together, Lindsay and Howe were allowed to think far more offensively than wingers from most teams - they dumped the puck into corners and chased after it HARD. It was the center's responsibility to hang back and allow Lindsay and Howe to play so aggressively. This suited Abel fine, as he was far slower than his linemates at that point of his career.

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02-27-2011, 05:30 PM
  #416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I'm a little surprised that Bure and Gretzky were rated so low in 1994 for the Hart Trophy. Gretzky didn't even get a 3rd place vote and wasn't even among the top 15 despite winning the scoring title. Bure finished 12th despite his best regular season IMO.

I know L.A. was an awful team that year so perhaps the voters felt it was necessary not to reward Gretzky with the Hart votes but you'd think Bure would have been higher. I know 1994 had some other stiff competition though.
do they vote for these things at the end of the regular season, or near the end of the regular season? because bure really turned it on at the end of the season to his 60, as i recall.

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02-27-2011, 05:40 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Lindsay was 9 points ahead of linemate Sid Abel, and Abel had far more defensive responsibilities.

When the Production Line was together, Lindsay and Howe were allowed to think far more offensively than wingers from most teams - they dumped the puck into corners and chased after it HARD. It was the center's responsibility to hang back and allow Lindsay and Howe to play so aggressively. This suited Abel fine, as he was far slower than his linemates at that point of his career.
Ted Lindsay is not the only forward to win an art ross while having another teammate be more responsible defensively. Lafluer, ovechkin and jagr have all had seasons where their linemates were staying back and playing defense. Lindsay's negative reputation as a dirty player is what affected him.

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02-27-2011, 06:12 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
do they vote for these things at the end of the regular season, or near the end of the regular season? because bure really turned it on at the end of the season to his 60, as i recall.
If I recall only the Lindsay award voted by the players is done a couple weeks prior to the end of the season

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02-27-2011, 06:37 PM
  #419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I'm a little surprised that Bure and Gretzky were rated so low in 1994 for the Hart Trophy. Gretzky didn't even get a 3rd place vote and wasn't even among the top 15 despite winning the scoring title. Bure finished 12th despite his best regular season IMO.

I know L.A. was an awful team that year so perhaps the voters felt it was necessary not to reward Gretzky with the Hart votes but you'd think Bure would have been higher. I know 1994 had some other stiff competition though.
I'd have to think voters were just flat out tired of giving Gretzky the hart trophy. I could see Bure getting largely ignored for the general negative air around him, largely induced by his legendary bad defense.

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02-27-2011, 06:52 PM
  #420
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i'm with phil. it's particularly surprising because a rookie selanne the year before, with equally bad if not worse defense, placed 6th. he received more votes than bure in a more competitive year, and finished twice as high. both finished fifth in points, both led the league in goals, both were first team all-star at RW.

obviously, nobody would call bure a good defensive player in '94, but he didn't have the reputation for being objectionable defensively yet, that would come after his '98 season and really crest during his florida seasons.

and, to a large extent, the general negativity surrounding him wouldn't come until the finals that year, when someone in the canucks organization planted rumours in the press that bure threatened to sit out the finals if they didn't give him a new contract.

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02-27-2011, 07:33 PM
  #421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Ted Lindsay is not the only forward to win an art ross while having another teammate be more responsible defensively. Lafluer, ovechkin and jagr have all had seasons where their linemates were staying back and playing defense. Lindsay's negative reputation as a dirty player is what affected him.
You're comparing post-expansion criteria with original 6 criteria, when "most valuable" was taken a lot more seriously. Even if you werent, Lafleur, and Jagr were best offensive players on their team by far, while Lindsay's 2 linemates were only a little bit back.

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02-27-2011, 07:37 PM
  #422
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
I'd have to think voters were just flat out tired of giving Gretzky the hart trophy. I could see Bure getting largely ignored for the general negative air around him, largely induced by his legendary bad defense.
Gretzky was noticably less effective at even strength by 1994. So it wasn't just tired of giving it to Gretzky; it was also that Gretzky himself wasn't nearly as impressive as before.

Also, I don't think Bure's defense was "legendary bad" back in 1994, like vadim said.

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02-27-2011, 08:59 PM
  #423
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You're comparing post-expansion criteria with original 6 criteria, when "most valuable" was taken a lot more seriously. Even if you werent, Lafleur, and Jagr were best offensive players on their team by far, while Lindsay's 2 linemates were only a little bit back.
In those days, the reputation of the player was also taken more seriously. That is why mikita wouldn't sniff hart votes in his early years, then when he became a clean player, he started winning harts. Even if sid abel was the more valuable player, lindsay should have been at least 4th or 5th in hart voting, finishing 8th is a product of the media despising him.


Last edited by ushvinder: 02-27-2011 at 09:11 PM.
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04-07-2011, 10:24 PM
  #424
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Advanced 1964-65 Norris Breadkdown:

First Number: First-Half Voting Points
Second Number: Second-Half Voting Points
Third Half: Total

1. Pierre Pilote, CHI (32-61-93)
2. Jacques Lapierre, MTL (55-23-78)
3. Bill Gadsby, DET (18-22-40)
4. Tim Horton, TOR (15-12-27)
5. Marcel Pronovost, DET (0-20-20)
6. Carl Brewer, TOR (14-5-19)
7. Ted Green, BOS (13-14-17)
8. Bob Baun, TOR (5-10-15)
9. Harry Howell, NYR (8-4-12)
10. Doug Barkley, DET (0-1-1)
11. Elmer Vasko, CHI (1-0-1)
11. J.C. Tremblay, MTL (1-0-1)

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...e+pilote&hl=en

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04-10-2011, 07:27 PM
  #425
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vCash: 500
'26 Hart
Nels Stewart: 88 (4-2-2-2)
Sprague Cleghorn: 75 (1-4-3-0)
Frank Nighbor: 68
Roy Worters: 44
Hooley Smith: 44
Howie Morenz: 34
James Herberts: 33
King Clancy: 28
Charles Stewart: 24
Lionel Conacher: 24
Billy Burch: 18
Reg Noble: 14
Albert McCaffrey: 13
Babe Siebert: 12

page 16:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...rontpage&hl=en


since it was the Montreal Gazette, the writer also wrote 2 things about Montreal players. Louis Berlinguette got 1 vote, despite playing only a few minutes all season with Pittsburgh, apparently for his leadership. writer said Reg Noble, on D, was ranked highly by voters from Montreal, but writers from other cities did not appreciate how useful he was.

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