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Research Thread for NHL Award and All-star Voting

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Old
06-15-2013, 06:32 PM
  #651
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
How many times has the Vezina been won by a non-playoff goalie? Bobrovsky just won it.

I'd assume that pre-1982 it couldn't have happened because that was the goalie with the fewest goals against, so I doubt that team missed the playoffs...and GMs like wins too, so I'm trying to think of one...but I can't imagine it happening before, right or wrong?
Roy Worters is the only other one. Bobrovsky is the only one from the voting era, obviously

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Old
06-15-2013, 06:39 PM
  #652
Mike Farkas
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Wow, how about that. Thanks TDMM, saved me a lot of cross-referencing...

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Old
06-15-2013, 07:43 PM
  #653
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2012-2013 Calder Memorial Trophy Voting

#PlayerTeamPts1st2nd3rd4th5th
1Huberdeau JonathanFLA1141545526268
2Gallagher BrendanMTL10485444232413
3Saad BrandonCHI7303024263430
4Brodin JonasMIN6212421322014
5Yakupov NailEDM5211119293528
6Conacher CoryOTT23246161525
7Schultz JustinEDM115227919
8Muzzin JakeLA88028616
9Galchenyuk AlexMTL6904456
10Dillon BrendenDAL2201124
11Hamilton DougieBOS2001203
12Tarasenko VladimirSTL1200121
13Lehner RobinOTT800110
14Markstrom JacobFLA700102
15Silfverberg JakobOTT600101
 Wiercioch PatrickOTT600101
17Allen JakeSTL200002
 Coyle CharlieMIN200002
19Irwin MattSJ100001
 Killorn AlexTB100001
 Shore DrewFLA100001

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06-15-2013, 07:43 PM
  #654
pnep
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2012-2013 Vezina Trophy Voting

#PlayerTeamPts1st2nd3rd
1Bobrovsky SergeiCLB1101781
2Lundqvist HenrikNYR553124
3Niemi AnttiSJ46644
4Anderson CraigOTT22314
5Rask TuukkaBOS12033
6Howard JimmyDET9009
7Emery RayCHI6101
8Crawford CoreyCHI5012
9Hiller JonasANA3010
10Backstrom NiklasMIN1001
 Price CareyMTL1001

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06-15-2013, 07:44 PM
  #655
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Howard's Vezina votes are interesting.

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Old
06-15-2013, 07:44 PM
  #656
pnep
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2012-2013 James Norris Memorial Trophy Voting

#PlayerTeamPts1st2nd3rd4th5th
1Subban PKMTL1266665635123
2Suter RyanMIN123065543488
3Letang KrisPIT9143137423918
4Beauchemin FrancoisANA29016203339
5Chara ZdenoBOS28910916822
6Keith DuncanCHI28118163627
7Ekman-Larsson OliverPHO7931288
8Weber SheaNSH4901457
9Doughty DrewLA4301275
10Kronwall NiklasDET3302135
11Phaneuf DionTOR2801144
12Yandle KeithPHO2700069
13Markov AndreiMTL2310115
14Pietrangelo AlexSTL2302023
15Byfuglien DustinWPG1300122
16Hamhuis DanVAN900111
17Green MikeWAS600013
18Karlsson ErikOTT500100
 Orpik BrooksPIT500100
20Timonen KimmoPHI500012
21Seidenberg DennisBOS400011
22Girardi DanNYR200002
23Martin PaulPIT100001
 Souray SheldonANA100001
 Visnovsky LubomirNYI100001

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06-15-2013, 07:45 PM
  #657
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2012-2013 Hart Memorial Trophy Voting

#PlayerTeamPts1st2nd3rd4th5th
1Ovechkin AlexWAS1090504340278
2Crosby SidneyPIT10584642412912
3Tavares JohnNYI9193838332921
4Toews JonathanCHI8863935292919
5Bobrovsky SergeiCLB311412132547
6Kane PatrickCHI157269148
7Getzlaf RyanANA960081123
8Stamkos StevenTB2801225
9St Louis MartinTB2001027
10Datsyuk PavelDET1800127
11Niemi AnttiSJ1100018
12Anderson CraigOTT1001010
13Subban PKMTL1000112
14Nabokov EvgeniNYI500100
 Sedin HenrikVAN500100
16Kunitz ChrisPIT500012
17Backstrom NiklasMIN300010
 Bergeron PatriceBOS300010
 Kovalchuk IlyaNJ300010
 Price CareyMTL300010
 Suter RyanMIN300010
22Zetterberg HenrikDET300003
23Beauchemin FrancoisANA100001
 Carter JeffLA100001
 Dupuis PascalPIT100001
 Lundqvist HenrikNYR100001
 Parise ZachMIN100001
 Reimer JamesTOR100001
 Staal EricCAR100001

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Old
06-15-2013, 08:38 PM
  #658
Uncle Rotter
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Is that the lowest % of 1st place votes for a Hart winner?

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06-15-2013, 09:29 PM
  #659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Rotter View Post
Is that the lowest % of 1st place votes for a Hart winner?
We don't know the first-place votes breakdown for all seasons before 81-82, but since 81-82 Ovechkins percentage of 27.9 is the lowest. Henrik Sedin's 34.5% three years ago was the previous lowest.

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Old
06-16-2013, 02:53 AM
  #660
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
Crosby at 15th for Selke?

I think that's goes to show he's actually quite effective defensively.
Yeah no it doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Defensive play of a defenseman is evidently difficult to evaluate as well, considering the likes of PK Subban came in as a Norris finalist over Zdeno Chara or Duncan Keith.

I think the awards voting has it's value historically from the eras where media members actually watched games, saw every team, and had a feel for many players in the league. In a 30-team league, those days are a thing of the past.

There's somebody out there that thinks Patrick Kane was the 2nd-best defensive player in the NHL this year. Somebody else thinks Nazem Kadri or Tyler Seguin were 4th-best. Are these people really qualified to say who was better between Toews and Bergeron? Not in my books.

Marc Spector, who writes for the National Post and hosts a radio show in Edmonton, stated "I was surprised I ended up voting for Niemi for Vezina, but my research showed how good of a season he had". Let me get this straight, you make a living watching and reporting on hockey, yet had to conduct research (aka, looked up his save %) to decide who should win the Vezina? Most media members are probably less reliable in these matters than an astute fan with access to Center Ice is.
Exactly.

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06-16-2013, 03:10 AM
  #661
Kyle McMahon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
On the flip side of this discussion, any peculiarities or deficiencies of individual writers (or even groups of them) is going to get drowned out significantly by the sheer volume of voters. While people will point out a few wacky individual votes (which can often simply be attributed to homerism), these tend to matter fairly little since the voting and points structure encourages regression to the mean.

One reason I dislike the GMs voting on the Vezina (as opposed to many who seem to favor this) is that with only 30 voters, a single individual has far more power (over 5 times compared to a PHWA voter) to influence the final result. With how clubby the GMs are, there's also more significant danger of groupthink and/or influencing others.
I'd agree with the first paragraph, having lots of voters definitely reduces the possibility that a couple rogue idiots can skew the whole thing.

But I'd say the media might be more prone to groupthink and reputation votes with the way things are. How many times did the west coast beat writers watch Patrice Bergeron this year? Probably the same number of times the east coast guys saw Jonathan Toews, which is not much. But evidently word of mouth and past reputation were at play since they couldn't have finished 1-2 without significant votes from both conference's writers.

I've seen it suggested in here before, but it might be time for the awards voting to be strictly conference based. Not sure how you'd determine the winner between the two finalists though.

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Old
06-16-2013, 11:24 AM
  #662
kaiser matias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
I'd agree with the first paragraph, having lots of voters definitely reduces the possibility that a couple rogue idiots can skew the whole thing.

But I'd say the media might be more prone to groupthink and reputation votes with the way things are. How many times did the west coast beat writers watch Patrice Bergeron this year? Probably the same number of times the east coast guys saw Jonathan Toews, which is not much. But evidently word of mouth and past reputation were at play since they couldn't have finished 1-2 without significant votes from both conference's writers.

I've seen it suggested in here before, but it might be time for the awards voting to be strictly conference based. Not sure how you'd determine the winner between the two finalists though.
I'd also support the idea that the media is far more prone to groupthink. A notable example that comes to mind is a couple years ago when Lidstrom was nominated for the Lady Byng. During the season a couple guys published articles noting that it had been some five decades since a defenceman won the trophy, and that Lidstrom was a perfect candidate for it, and that since he was expected to retire that year (which he obviously didn't) it would be a shame if he was never recognised for his clean play. Suddenly he becomes a finalist for the award, which was no surprise since the voters are the same ones writing the articles. Not saying that he shouldn't have been nominated, but it just felt like an effort by writers to give Lidstrom a sort of lifetime achievement award (even though he ultimately didn't win).

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Old
06-16-2013, 11:49 AM
  #663
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I am not bashing Crosby, he is more than capable to handle the defensive side of the game. But in the idea of the trophy, "The Frank J. Selke Trophy is awarded annually to the National Hockey League forward who demonstrates the most skill in the defensive component of the game." I would feel pretty comfortable to put Backstrom or Koivu (probably both of them) ahead of him.

But I am not arguing Crosby's competent of playing defensive hockey, I just think the voting record after 10-or-so should not be used as a "proof" of some players defensive abilities.

Selke probably has the most disparity of all trophies in voting. But then again, defensive play of forward is probably hardest aspect of the game to evaluate.
it really seems that some guys just get reputation votes from media in their area. A lot of these voting records, not just this year, seem to be someone who doesn't watch outside of his division throwing a pointless vote at a guy he recognizes as good in the field of the particular trophy.

Realistically, if we all voted on here... like, not even me, but rather the guys who compile the big projects.... and i don't consider every one here really genius or unbiased, either, BUT there is certainly passion, and more importantly, accountability.... if you had just 5 votes to cast for the Selke.... would Crosby receieve a single vote? I doubt he would, and that doesn't mean he isn't solid that way, just that he isn't Top 5.

Some real silly votes when you look through all of these.

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Old
06-16-2013, 12:32 PM
  #664
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That Norris voting is cover-your-eyes awful. Letang plays 35 of 48 games and has 914 votes comapred to 741 combined votes than Chara, Keith, OEL, Weber and Doughty.

And Tavares getting that close to winning the Hart is pretty ridiculous as well.

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Old
06-16-2013, 01:57 PM
  #665
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishdul View Post
That Norris voting is cover-your-eyes awful. Letang plays 35 of 48 games and has 914 votes comapred to 741 combined votes than Chara, Keith, OEL, Weber and Doughty.

And Tavares getting that close to winning the Hart is pretty ridiculous as well.
Karlsson got a 3rd place vote for his 17 GP.

These votes should be made public.

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Old
06-16-2013, 02:09 PM
  #666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishdul View Post
That Norris voting is cover-your-eyes awful. Letang plays 35 of 48 games and has 914 votes comapred to 741 combined votes than Chara, Keith, OEL, Weber and Doughty.

And Tavares getting that close to winning the Hart is pretty ridiculous as well.
I wouldn't have a problem with that if Letang was far and away the best d-man when he was playing, enough to transcend the GP gap (like Crosby for example)... but he obviously wasn't. I wouldn't say he was the best at all. This should have been Suter's Norris.

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06-17-2013, 01:40 PM
  #667
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
One reason I dislike the GMs voting on the Vezina (as opposed to many who seem to favor this) is that with only 30 voters, a single individual has far more power (over 5 times compared to a PHWA voter) to influence the final result. With how clubby the GMs are, there's also more significant danger of groupthink and/or influencing others.
Absolutely. 1999 and 2002 are big examples when Dominik Hasek and Patrick Roy were left off of more Vezina ballots than All-Star ballots despite there being twice as many PHWA voters than GMs.

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06-17-2013, 01:52 PM
  #668
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Howard's Vezina votes are interesting.
Would love to know which GM thought Emery was the best goaltender this season.

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06-17-2013, 01:57 PM
  #669
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Would love to know which GM thought Emery was the best goaltender this season.
Probably one who still bows before the almighty win-loss record and saw "17-1".

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06-17-2013, 02:35 PM
  #670
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Would love to know which GM thought Emery was the best goaltender this season.
I'd think it would have to be a lazy Eastern Conference GM, right? With the Conferences not playing each other at all, a GM could completely ignore the other conference for the most part

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Probably one who still bows before the almighty win-loss record and saw "17-1".
Right. Probably an Eastern GM who ignored the Western Conference all year and then just looked at stats at the end.

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06-17-2013, 02:47 PM
  #671
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Well, this year was a new low.

PWHA puting up a good fight against the BBWAA for the dumbest media members in sports.

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Old
06-17-2013, 04:28 PM
  #672
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When are the All-Star voting results due to come out?

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06-17-2013, 05:00 PM
  #673
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Would love to know which GM thought Emery was the best goaltender this season.
In defense of the voter, Emery is a unique case. On a per-game basis, he had a phenomenal season. If he played 35 games and maintained the same level, he'd have been as good a choice as any. That 17-1 record is probably the best winning % of all time for that number of games played I suspect.

So basically you have a backup who played about 40% of his team's games, was arguably better than the starter but due to chronic health problems simply can't handle a large workload, and shared the Jennings Trophy with that starter while compiling a historically good W-L record. A pretty unprecedented season, so for that reason I can cut this voter some slack.

If I had to hazard a guess at who the GM was (if it wasn't Stan Bowman), I'd say Jay Feaster. Emery's win over the Flames early in the season was the single best display of goaltending I saw all year, and it could have stuck in Feaster's mind when it came time to vote.

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06-17-2013, 05:15 PM
  #674
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I had (what I feel was) a decent response against Emery's win-loss record in the main board thread, so I'll shamefully ctrl-c/ctrl-v myself...

On March 10, he started the game and gave up three goals on nine shots. Why didn't he get the loss? Because his teammates rallied for five goals, and so Corey Crawford got "credit" for the 6-5 loss.

Looking at their game logs from here:
http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/emery.html
http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/crawford.html

Some of Emery's credited victories included ones where he gave up four goals on 29 shots, three goals on 22 shots, two goals on 19 shots, (again) three goals on 22 shots, and (again) two goals on 19 shots.

Emery's teammates consistently kept the number of shots Emery faced to a minimum, and when he gave up goals, they helped out with plenty of offense. Emery's "support-neutral" win-loss record would have been about 10-8, instead of the 17-1 that is credited to him.

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06-17-2013, 05:57 PM
  #675
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
In defense of the voter, Emery is a unique case. On a per-game basis, he had a phenomenal season. If he played 35 games and maintained the same level, he'd have been as good a choice as any. That 17-1 record is probably the best winning % of all time for that number of games played I suspect.

So basically you have a backup who played about 40% of his team's games, was arguably better than the starter but due to chronic health problems simply can't handle a large workload, and shared the Jennings Trophy with that starter while compiling a historically good W-L record. A pretty unprecedented season, so for that reason I can cut this voter some slack.

If I had to hazard a guess at who the GM was (if it wasn't Stan Bowman), I'd say Jay Feaster. Emery's win over the Flames early in the season was the single best display of goaltending I saw all year, and it could have stuck in Feaster's mind when it came time to vote.
i guess in a shortened season it's a little more defensible than the first place vez vote elliott got last year.

but on the other hand, eyeball test says elliott last year was a lot closer to deserving that vote than emery was.

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