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I wonder what it would take for us to get T.Ruutu?

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Old
06-08-2005, 06:09 PM
  #26
ULF_55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat
chicago wont trade ruutu till he's up for arbitration
nuff said
I wouldn't expect him to be available unless they relax the amount of money you can sell players for.

I don't see his value being as high as some might believe. Some of the offers are franchise player type offers, and I don't see that from him, and there really is nothing to suggest he is a franchise player at this stage of his career. One good NHL season, but not a whole lot to see from his European time.

Worth more to the Hawks than anyone else right now.

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06-08-2005, 06:23 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
Is that like saying Jackman was the Penguins best young defender?
LOL that is true but as stated before Rutuu has the game and fight of a poor mans Forsberg while Jackman is a scratch or 6th d-man on 25 teams in the league.

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06-08-2005, 07:04 PM
  #28
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if we got crosby... he's going to the western conference


Haha...

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06-08-2005, 08:38 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vedder19
I believe this would be a list of our assets that some teams may be interested.

D.Tucker
A.Ponikarovsky
N.Antropov
K.Wellwood
A.Steen
M.Stajan
I.White
B.Bell
J.Harrison
C.Colaiacovo
K.Pilar
T.Kaberle
K.Klee
B.McCabe...

...and of course draft picks...
Sweet... we will give them Antropov then

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06-08-2005, 09:14 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ
Sweet... we will give them Antropov then
I'd never give up antropov. He will have a breakout year anytime now and that's NS.
(Also, he has been built again like Darth Vader)

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06-08-2005, 09:41 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vedder19
I believe this would be a list of our assets that some teams may be interested.

D.Tucker
A.Ponikarovsky
N.Antropov
K.Wellwood
A.Steen
M.Stajan
I.White
B.Bell
J.Harrison
C.Colaiacovo
K.Pilar
T.Kaberle
K.Klee
B.McCabe...

...and of course draft picks...
Perhaps we should sort that out....

Expendible

D.Tucker
I.White
B.Bell
J.Harrison
K.Klee
B.McCabe

Keep

A.Ponikarovsky
N.Antropov
K.Wellwood
A.Steen
M.Stajan
C.Colaiacovo
K.Pilar
T.Kaberle

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Old
06-08-2005, 09:54 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vedder19
I believe this would be a list of our assets that some teams may be interested.

D.Tucker
A.Ponikarovsky
N.Antropov
K.Wellwood
A.Steen
M.Stajan
I.White
B.Bell
J.Harrison
C.Colaiacovo
K.Pilar
T.Kaberle
K.Klee
B.McCabe...

...and of course draft picks...
Here's your problem and please keep this in mind for your future trade proposals.....

When you're talking about a top end talent like Ruutu, especially when the team (Chicago in this case) has no real reason to trade him you're going to have to give a package that is so ridiculously lopsided in their favour that it wouldn't even be worth doing. That's why players like Ruutu rarely get traded.

The only way the Leafs could make this trade is if they included a player that was extremely close Ruutu's calibre and then added more quality assets on top of that.

Listing off guys like Harrison, Bell, Klee, Pilar and even White is useless. These players have little value- especially when talking about a guy like Ruutu. Put yourself in Chicago's shoes. Do you think they'd actually mull over a deal from Toronto to and getting a guy like Harrison would have any impact on their decision? Of course not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenSteen
Perhaps we should sort that out....

Expendible

D.Tucker
I.White
B.Bell
J.Harrison
K.Klee
B.McCabe

Keep

A.Ponikarovsky
N.Antropov
K.Wellwood
A.Steen
M.Stajan
C.Colaiacovo
K.Pilar
T.Kaberle
Why you have Tucker on the expendable list and Pilar on the keep list I'll never know.

And I'd hardly call McCabe expendable. I realize some people think we'd be better off without his contract, but that doesn't mean he's expendable. That is unless you want Aki Berg playing 25-30 minutes a night.

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06-08-2005, 10:02 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
Here's your problem and please keep this in mind for your future trade proposals.....

When you're talking about a top end talent like Ruutu, especially when the team (Chicago in this case) has no real reason to trade him you're going to have to give a package that is so ridiculously lopsided in their favour that it wouldn't even be worth doing. That's why players like Ruutu rarely get traded.

The only way the Leafs could make this trade is if they included a player that was extremely close Ruutu's calibre and then added more quality assets on top of that.

Listing off guys like Harrison, Bell, Klee, Pilar and even White is useless. These players have little value- especially when talking about a guy like Ruutu. Put yourself in Chicago's shoes. Do you think they'd actually mull over a deal from Toronto to and getting a guy like Harrison would have any impact on their decision? Of course not.



Why you have Tucker on the expendable list and Pilar on the keep list I'll never know.

And I'd hardly call McCabe expendable. I realize some people think we'd be better off without his contract, but that doesn't mean he's expendable. That is unless you want Aki Berg playing 25-30 minutes a night.
Nope, a young forward with good potential would be an ideal return for McCabe. He is nearing the UFA age and his value is at its peak. A similar d-man can likely be picked up from the UFA market, while paying less enabling Aki to play less than 15 minutes a night.

The reason Tucker is expendible is for the same reason.. some teams would actually overpay for him, at this point. Pilar should not be moved because at this point, really what is the most we can get for him? A 3rd round pick?

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Old
06-08-2005, 10:16 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenSteen
Nope, a young forward with good potential would be an ideal return for McCabe. He is nearing the UFA age and his value is at its peak. A similar d-man can likely be picked up from the UFA market, while paying less enabling Aki to play less than 15 minutes a night.
I still don't think that makes McCabe expendable. Like him or not, the bottom line is that he plays a lot of minutes for us and that's not as easy to replace as you might think.

You say that a replacement would be needed from the UFA market and that alone tells me that he's not expendable. By that reasoning any player is expendable. I guess Mats Sundin is expendable as well if we sign a player to replace him.

At this point it would take an absolutely amazing offer for me to trade McCabe. Think about it. What happens if you trade McCabe for a "young forward", then you can't sign a UFA defenceman and then Kaberle gets injured. What then? Honestly, who would play on our top pairing? He's not expendable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenSteen
The reason Tucker is expendible is for the same reason.. some teams would actually overpay for him, at this point.
I'm sure some team would give up a lot for him. But we also need him badly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenSteen
Pilar should not be moved because at this point, really what is the most we can get for him? A 3rd round pick?
I like Pilar but he's the very definition of expendable.

Maybe it's just the way you're using the word expendable that I'm having trouble with. You seem to think Tucker and McCabe (valuable players to us) are expendable because they have trade value. Meanwhile you think that Pilar (not-so valuable) is a keeper because no one would really want him anyway. That's kind of backwards thinking.

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Old
06-08-2005, 10:26 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army

I'm sure some team would give up a lot for him. But we also need him badly.
Tucker and McCabe being expendible has a lot to do with the direction the team takes. If we're going to rebuild, they're expendible. If we're somehow able to put together a competitive team, then both of them will remain unless someone offers something that cannot be refused.

My reasoning is really based on my opinion that this team needs to rebuild, and build a team that will compete for years to come.

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06-08-2005, 10:31 PM
  #36
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I don't get this "comparable player" picked up for McCabe garbage. He put up 50 points last NHL season, was our #1 defenseman and finished in the top 5 in Norris voting. Aside from his two game blowup he was our best defenseman against the Flyers, and was by far the best in the Ottawa series. Yet the guy is treated as if he is some hack who can be picked up as if he is a dime a dozen. I am not trying to hype McCabe up to superstar status, but he is more than just an above average defenseman, and you can't just "pick one up" in the free agent pool.

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06-08-2005, 10:58 PM
  #37
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The longer this thread grows the more of a whooper story Ruutu becomes.

In a couple days the cost will be Ovechkin and 3 first rounders for the career 23 goal scoring 1 year player.

Let's get some comparisons of recent players 21 and younger:


Dan Heatley first year age 20: Goals 26 Points 67
Dan Heatley second year age 21: Goals 41 Points 89

Marion Gaborik first year age 18: Goals 18 Points 36
Marion Gaborik second year age 19: Goals 30 Points 67
Marion Gaborik third year age 20: Goals 30 Points 65

Alex Frolov second year age 21: Goals 24 Points 48

Ilya Kovalchuk first year age 18: Goals 29 Points 51
Ilya Kovalchuk second year age 19: Goals 38 Points 67
Ilya Kovalchuk third year age 20: Goals 41 Points 87

Tuomo Ruutu first year age 20: Goals 23 Points 44

Rick Nash first year age 18: Goals 17 Points 39
Rick Nash second year age 19: Goals 41 Points 57

Matt Stajan first year age 20: Goals 14 Points 27

Patrice Bergeron first year age 18: Goals 16 Points 39

RADIM VRBATA first year age 20: Goals 18 Points 30 (in 52 games)


For penalty killing he was about 7 seconds a game, or 99th. for rookies.
For power play he was 3 minutes and 20 seconds a game, or 10th. for rookies.


So Tuomo isn't quite into the top end range but I'm sure he'd be welcomed on any team, and you aren't going to get him for Stajan and a 2nd. Pitkanen and a 2nd. maybe.

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06-08-2005, 11:03 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
Let's get some comparisons of recent players 21 and younger:
.
All you are proving is that you don't have a clue what kind of player he is.

Reeling off the point totals of a slew of other players, in other situations, on other teams at similar ages it totally pointless.

Why not take a look at the PLAYER instead of just his stats.

You only need to see him play about 5 games to realize he is truly a special player.

Ruutu is a gigantic building block for Chicago. He's going nowwhere. You ought to watch him play a little.

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06-08-2005, 11:11 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox
All you are proving is that you don't have a clue what kind of player he is.

Reeling off the point totals of a slew of other players, in other situations, on other teams at similar ages it totally pointless.

Why not take a look at the PLAYER instead of just his stats.

You only need to see him play about 5 games to realize he is truly a special player.

Ruutu is a gigantic building block for Chicago. He's going nowwhere. You ought to watch him play a little.
Why did youu exclude the list, is he better than Heatley, Nash, all your doing is proving you aren't willing to compare him to peers. Is that because he doesn't match up?

How is it pointless to compare him to other players? That has got to be one of the dumbest statements I've read here! How else can you evaluate except against peers?

Loosen your shorts, no one said he was going anywhere or if he did it would be cheaply. Pitkanen and a 2nd. might not even be offered by the Flyers. Pitkanen is a special player, a gigantic building block for the Flyers.

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06-09-2005, 12:04 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
Why did youu exclude the list, is he better than Heatley, Nash, all your doing is proving you aren't willing to compare him to peers. Is that because he doesn't match up?

How is it pointless to compare him to other players? That has got to be one of the dumbest statements I've read here! How else can you evaluate except against peers?

It's not pointless to compare him to other players - it's pointless to compare him to other players STATS. All you did was cite their stats, not their skillsets.

And to say "how else you evaluate except against peers" is a hialrious statement. Ummm how about looking at the overall package the players has? His speed, agility, toughness, leadership, tenacity, hands, hockey sense, defensive awareness, etc. That's what scouts do. Your suggestion that the only way to evaluate a player is to compare him to his peers is hilarious. Like all the scouts are sitting in the crowds scouring the ages of players and comparing them to one another! Crosby's going to be good because he's better then Michel Descouteaux was in his 2nd season in the Q!

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06-09-2005, 12:18 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenSteen
Tucker and McCabe being expendible has a lot to do with the direction the team takes. If we're going to rebuild, they're expendible. If we're somehow able to put together a competitive team, then both of them will remain unless someone offers something that cannot be refused.

My reasoning is really based on my opinion that this team needs to rebuild, and build a team that will compete for years to come.
One question: why is it that you seem to assume that a rebuilding team should not be competative? Both Tucker and McCabe are needed if the Leafs want to remain a competative team as they rebuild...not to mention the fact that both of these players would be good influences on developing young players. An advantage of keeping a team competative while bringing in young prospects is that it teaches the new players how to win. Tucker and McCabe are proven winners. No they have not won a cup but they were often keys to Leaf victories over the past few years and they are both highly competative.

You ask me, I think that if the Leafs are planning to rebuild, they should strive to keep at least a small core of vetrans including Tucker and McCabe to help the young prospects develope. I would love to see McCabe working with Carlo, White and Bell on their point shots. Tucker is a leader and an excellent example for young players with his enthusiastic approach to the game. There is no reason that we need to dump these guys. It is not like we are going to be short of spots on the roster with so many current Leafs likely to retire or leave (Roberts, Nieuwendyk, Leetch, Mogilny, Klee to name a few).

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06-09-2005, 12:29 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by London Knights
I don't get this "comparable player" picked up for McCabe garbage. He put up 50 points last NHL season, was our #1 defenseman and finished in the top 5 in Norris voting. Aside from his two game blowup he was our best defenseman against the Flyers, and was by far the best in the Ottawa series. Yet the guy is treated as if he is some hack who can be picked up as if he is a dime a dozen. I am not trying to hype McCabe up to superstar status, but he is more than just an above average defenseman, and you can't just "pick one up" in the free agent pool.
Excellent, well thought out post . Pretty much sums up my own feelings with regards to McCabe. I can't figure out why this defenseman is so routinely mangled by Leaf fans. The last season that McCabe played for Toronto was perhaps that best performance that I have seen from a Toronto defender in at least a decade. His offensive numbers were steller (in terms of today's NHL at least) and he was very solid in his own end as well.

Before the arrival of Leetch, McCabe was Toronto's undesputed number one defenseman last season. I know that this is in part the result of a bad year by Kaberle but there is no way to claim that McCabe had a bad season for us. If McCabe comes back playing as well as he did in his last season with Toronto and Kaberle plays like he did this past season in Europe, Toronto will have an excellent defense even with the expected loss of Leetch and Klee.

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06-09-2005, 12:34 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox
It's not pointless to compare him to other players - it's pointless to compare him to other players STATS. All you did was cite their stats, not their skillsets.

And to say "how else you evaluate except against peers" is a hialrious statement. Ummm how about looking at the overall package the players has? His speed, agility, toughness, leadership, tenacity, hands, hockey sense, defensive awareness, etc. That's what scouts do. Your suggestion that the only way to evaluate a player is to compare him to his peers is hilarious. Like all the scouts are sitting in the crowds scouring the ages of players and comparing them to one another! Crosby's going to be good because he's better then Michel Descouteaux was in his 2nd season in the Q!
Players are judged by their stats. That's just the way it works. Players are defined by how many points they put up.

You could be the biggest, fastest, toughest and best defensive forward in the league. But if you only score 5 goals you're going to be nothing more than a 4th liner. That's the way it is.

On the other hand if you're small, slow, weak and only moderate defensively but you score 100 points each year, you're going to be on a first line.

Not saying that applies to Ruutu though. I think he's going to end up being a fairly big scorer.

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06-09-2005, 12:36 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finska
I'd never give up antropov. He will have a breakout year anytime now and that's NS.
(Also, he has been built again like Darth Vader)
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

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06-09-2005, 12:41 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by London Knights
I don't get this "comparable player" picked up for McCabe garbage. He put up 50 points last NHL season, was our #1 defenseman and finished in the top 5 in Norris voting. Aside from his two game blowup he was our best defenseman against the Flyers, and was by far the best in the Ottawa series. Yet the guy is treated as if he is some hack who can be picked up as if he is a dime a dozen. I am not trying to hype McCabe up to superstar status, but he is more than just an above average defenseman, and you can't just "pick one up" in the free agent pool.
very true. if we could just "pick up" another mccabe, we'd have 6 of him by now. face it, without the guy, all we have left is Klee

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06-09-2005, 12:43 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ
Toronto will have an excellent defense even with the expected loss of Leetch and Klee.
why would we lose Klee?
we resigned him to an extention just prior to the lockout

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06-09-2005, 12:46 AM
  #47
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well if your going to rebuild than you trade McCabe beacuse his value is high right now and he would get us a good young player or players who will help the Leafs in the future.

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06-09-2005, 12:47 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuppY
well if your going to rebuild than you trade McCabe beacuse his value is high right now and he would get us a good young player or players who will help the Leafs in the future.
TORONTO WILL NOT REBUILD UNLESS THEY GO BOTTOM-UP

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06-09-2005, 12:49 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat
why would we lose Klee?
we resigned him to an extention just prior to the lockout
I thought I read that Klee's extension was only for last season if the lockout was aborted or ended early. I could be wrong as I have been distracted during my final year at Trent and my by new girlfriend . I hope I am wrong on this point as I liked Klee as a Leaf.

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06-09-2005, 12:51 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ
I thought I read that Klee's extension was only for last season if the lockout was aborted or ended early. I could be wrong as I have been distracted during my final year at Trent and my by new girlfriend . I hope I am wrong on this point as I liked Klee as a Leaf.
excerpt i found on the net:

According to the online version of the Toronto Sun, Klee, who would have become an unrestricted free agent, is expected to earn about $2.5 million over the next two years.

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