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Old
06-10-2005, 08:55 AM
  #26
CGG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese
Keep hoping.
Are you suggesting that everything will be peachy in Leafland this season? The salary cap will have no effect on them whatsoever? That they'll do just as good or better than 03-04 when they spent $65 million and still got bounced in the second round? That Kukumburg and Murphy will replace Mogilny and Roberts' scoring? That every rookie pencilled into the lineup will adjust perfectly and thrive in the NHL?

Seems like I'm being realistic. You're the one doing the hoping.

A cap is coming, the Leafs will lose their spending advantage, and have nowhere to go but down.

DENIAL: (Psychology). An unconscious defense mechanism characterized by refusal to acknowledge painful realities, thoughts, or feelings.

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06-10-2005, 08:59 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gc2005
Seems like I'm being realistic. You're the one doing the hoping.

A cap is coming, the Leafs will lose their spending advantage, and have nowhere to go but down.
[/I]
You must be young.

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06-10-2005, 09:01 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
You must be young.
Excellent argument. Care to point out why I'm so wrong in my estimation that the Leafs will not be good next year?

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06-10-2005, 09:09 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gc2005
Care to point out why I'm so wrong in my estimation that the Leafs will not be good next year?
You actually think it matters if the Leafs win, lose, tie, make the playoffs, increase ticket prices, or have smucks from other teams try and bring them down.

Leafs and Hawks, not much difference, except 100% attendance for Leaf games and 64% attendance at Hawks games.

An idiot could run the Leafs and still sell out. Oh, wait he already did.

While even the Habs might have fairweather fans, that doesn't hold true for the Leafs.

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06-10-2005, 09:11 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gc2005
Excellent argument. Care to point out why I'm so wrong in my estimation that the Leafs will not be good next year?
Canadiens fans do this every year, this time they have a new angle.

With Sundin and Belfour around, the Leafs will be good.

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06-10-2005, 09:19 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
You actually think it matters if the Leafs win, lose, tie, make the playoffs, increase ticket prices, or have smucks from other teams try and bring them down.

Leafs and Hawks, not much difference, except 100% attendance for Leaf games and 64% attendance at Hawks games.

An idiot could run the Leafs and still sell out. Oh, wait he already did.

While even the Habs might have fairweather fans, that doesn't hold true for the Leafs.
Actually, I'm pretty sure it does matter if the Leafs win, lose, tie, or make the playoffs. Isn't that the whole point? Aren't hockey teams supposed to compete to try to win the Stanley Cup?

It seems like you're trying to say so what if the Leafs are awful, they'll continue to make buckets of money. Fantastic. You're right, by the way, but it's a pretty lame argument. "Ha ha, my team makes more money than your team". Great. Good for you. That's something to be proud of. And a great reason to cheer for a team.

"Who cares if the Leafs win or lose, so long as the make money".

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06-10-2005, 09:21 AM
  #32
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Ken Klee 4 Kaptain!

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06-10-2005, 09:22 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gc2005
"Who cares if the Leafs win or lose, so long as the make money".
Leaf fans plan the parade every year, 60 point or 100 point season.

Or haven't you noticed?

How many teams won the Cup in 2004?

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06-10-2005, 09:23 AM
  #34
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.

.


Last edited by Kill 'Em All: 06-10-2005 at 10:05 AM.
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06-10-2005, 09:23 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
I'm not neccessarily saying we should re-sign Marchment, but it wouldn't be the worst thing under the scenario I proposed (as long as he doesn't take a spot from Colaiacovo). His biggest weakness is that he's not good enough to play a regular shift on the PK. We need a big, tough, crease clearer who can kill penalties.
That is perhaps what Fergy meant by giving Marc Moro a shot in that interview on SJ radio .. Fergy is not known for revealing much but that he had no problem taking about..

While I don't believe he has NHL skills, in his own zone, and on the PK he might be that 6th/7th spot ..

In a cap world your might really see ice times going up for the top players .. If the Leafs were able to resign Leetch .. Him and McCabe would get 25-28 minutes and Kaberle and Klee would get 20-25 plus as well so you are down to 10 to 12 minutes of ice for your third pairing .. and I could see more specialty players where Moro gets PK time and Carlo replaces Klee on the 2nd PP unit ..

Also with Welly .. Even on the 4th line you will see him on the PP for sure and Shoot out perhaps and even 4 on 4 OT when Offense comes to the forefront.

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06-10-2005, 09:36 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
Also with Welly .. Even on the 4th line you will see him on the PP for sure and Shoot out perhaps and even 4 on 4 OT when Offense comes to the forefront.
In the NNHL skill will be paramount.

The new Kings: Sullivan, Comrie, St. Louis, Welly, ...

Going to war just to skate down the ice will be a thing of the past, and the Belaks, Cross', and Chara's are going to have to use more than just size to play the game.

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06-10-2005, 09:42 AM
  #37
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I can also tell that you're very young. It's either that, or you have a very short memory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gc2005
A cap is coming, the Leafs will lose their spending advantage, and have nowhere to go but down.
The Leafs will lose their spending advantage. Oh my whatever will we do?

I've already pointed this out once in this thread, but I guess it needs to be done again.

As recently as the 2000-2001 season, the Leafs didn't have much of a spending advantage. Their total salary was about $40 million. Not much more than the proposed cap.

Washington and San Jose both had higher payrolls than us. Plus Buffalo, Phoenix, Pittsburgh, Carolina and Florida all had payrolls withing $10 million of ours.

So why don't you ask Ottawa fans how well we competed without our "spending advantage" that year?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gc2005
Excellent argument. Care to point out why I'm so wrong in my estimation that the Leafs will not be good next year?
Because maybe we hear this every single year. The reasons change, but the predictions of doom and gloom don't.

Are you old enough to remember this Leaf team?

Modin-Sundin-Thomas
King-Perrault-Johnson
Berezin-Korolev-Valk
King-Sullivan-Domi

Yushkevich-Cote
Berard-Karpovtsev
Kaberle-Markov

They didn't have a $40 million payroll that year. In fact we heard the same doom and gloom predictions that year because we started the season with three rookies on defence (Kaberle, Markov and Tremblay) and a "washed up" top liner (Thomas) and unproven players like Modin, Johnson and Berezin taking up key spots in the lineup. No one gave them a chance that year.

What would you honestly have said about that team? Would you have predicted that they'd lead the league in goals? Would you have predicted they'd knock Philly out of the playoffs? Would you have predicted that they'd make the Conference Finals.

We all know that you wouldn't have. So if you don't understand why people don't take your predictions of doom and gloom seriously it's because we're used to them. We hear them every damn offseason from Canadiens fans- and then the season starts and we're still better than them.

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06-10-2005, 10:00 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
I can also tell that you're very young. It's either that, or you have a very short memory.

Washington and San Jose both had higher payrolls than us. Plus Buffalo, Phoenix, Pittsburgh, Carolina and Florida all had payrolls withing $10 million of ours.
...and they have all pretty much gutted those teams, lowered their payroll and all have a much better/brighter looking future than Toronto.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
Are you old enough to remember this Leaf team?

Modin-Sundin-Thomas
King-Perrault-Johnson
Berezin-Korolev-Valk
King-Sullivan-Domi

Yushkevich-Cote
Berard-Karpovtsev
Kaberle-Markov

They didn't have a $40 million payroll that year. In fact we heard the same doom and gloom predictions that year because we started the season with three rookies on defence (Kaberle, Markov and Tremblay) and a "washed up" top liner (Thomas) and unproven players like Modin, Johnson and Berezin taking up key spots in the lineup. No one gave them a chance that year.

What would you honestly have said about that team? Would you have predicted that they'd lead the league in goals? Would you have predicted they'd knock Philly out of the playoffs? Would you have predicted that they'd make the Conference Finals.

We all know that you wouldn't have. So if you don't understand why people don't take your predictions of doom and gloom seriously it's because we're used to them. We hear them every damn offseason from Canadiens fans- and then the season starts and we're still better than them.
Was that the team that lot to Carolina? ...who cares if you exceed expectations when you dont win when it matters most. The Cup is all that matters, but if you cant have that, at least give me a YOUNG and exciting team, not one that is at risk of breaking with light contact.

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06-10-2005, 10:00 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gc2005
It seems like you're trying to say so what if the Leafs are awful, they'll continue to make buckets of money. Fantastic. You're right, by the way, but it's a pretty lame argument. "Ha ha, my team makes more money than your team". Great. Good for you. That's something to be proud of. And a great reason to cheer for a team.

"Who cares if the Leafs win or lose, so long as the make money".
Is that not what Bettman's new CBA is all about ..

Well if you listen to the 80% pro-owners group in the PR battle that is all they are concerned about $$$ .. The poor billionaire owners need to make money??

Go check the Business of Hockey board, for all the colourful attacks against the players and the NHLPA .."beaten down, greedy players are getting it stuck to them" etc etc ..

Now you want to discuss the one ice product because of a restrictive cap, that forces the NHL's most profitable and well run team to opporate differently in the new world so the poor pathetic excuses for hockey teams can survive ..

Strange !!!!!!!!!..

There will be an adjustment for some teams in year 1 but this is a long term NHL and Caps go up and contracts expire and everything has a way of working itself out eventually ..

If the League feels it needs to tear the Leafs a part so other weaker teams get more of a chance .. then

I suggest you do a little soul searching, rather then gloating, or is it not enough yet that the Leafs will play with one hand tied behind their back, and have to switch hands to shoot opposite to regular in the new NHL.

What else would you like them blind folded as well to create more parity??.

Good for you if beat them, it took an entire league, a year without hockey and a new system to try to give other teams a chance for two points . .

Congratulations on your victory you must be so proud .. Just hope your team doesn't come town and lose, because that would be very very embarasing after the NHL went through all this trouble to give you a chance to win.

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06-10-2005, 10:06 AM
  #40
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not knowing what our RFA's are gonna be making (or which ones will be signed), what price range the top UFA's will be asking for, or what the cap will be, it's kind of hard to come up with a line-up that fits under "the cap," but i like your line-up Leafs Army... it's a very realistic possiblity of what our line-up may look like next year.


what do you think about this, though:

(10.6) -- Steen (0.8) - Sundin (6.08 - 1.0 = 5.8) - Murray (4.0)
(6.34) -- Tucker (1.6) - Stajan (0.8) - Nolan (4.94 - 1.0 = 3.94)
(2.0) -- Ponikarovksy (0.6) - Antropov (0.9) - Kukumberg (0.5)
(1.8) -- Wilm (0.5) - Wellwood (0.8) - Belak (0.5)
(0.5) -- Kilger (0.5)

(7.5) -- McCabe (3.5) - Aucoin (4.0)
(2.7) -- Kaberle (2.2) - Pilar (0.5)
(2.45) -- Klee (1.9) - Colaiacovo (0.55 *cola doesn't make $0.8 mil)
(0.5) -- Hedin (0.5)

(4.0) -- Belfour (4.5 - 1.0 = 3.5), Tellqvist (0.5)

-------
$38.39


sure, at $38.39 we'd be over the Globe's reported cap, but if the leafs sign aucoin and murray to multi-year deals, we could always give them a back-loaded deal in order to stay under the cap.

as for signing aucoin + murray over leetch + allison + lindros... it's all about going for the sure thing. both aucoin and murray do not have the health concerns as allison + lindros; both have been playing at way higher levels than allison + lindros; aucoin is younger than leetch, and thus has a better shot to be a leaf for more than 1 or 2 seasons.

i also see no problems if JFJ asks sundin, nolan, and belfour to differ (or restructure) $1.0 mil each. i think $2.0 mil may be pushing it, especially after these guys just lost 24% of their pay-check.

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06-10-2005, 10:11 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mydnyte
...and they have all pretty much gutted those teams, lowered their payroll and all have a much better/brighter looking future than Toronto.
You must have a different definition of "bright future" than I do.

The team with the brightest future isn't neccessarily the team with the best prospects. I thought most people realized that by now.

If you want to put your money on teams like Carolina, Phoenix, Florida and Washington that's your business but I'll stick with the Leafs thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mydnyte
Was that the team that lot to Carolina?
Umm....no of course not. I always thought you were a Leaf fan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mydnyte
...who cares if you exceed expectations when you dont win when it matters most. The Cup is all that matters, but if you cant have that, at least give me a YOUNG and exciting team, not one that is at risk of breaking with light contact.
Obviously the whole goal is to win the Cup. But this discussion is about whether or not the Leafs will remain competitive. And they will.

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06-10-2005, 10:11 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
In the NNHL skill will be paramount.

The new Kings: Sullivan, Comrie, St. Louis, Welly, ...

Going to war just to skate down the ice will be a thing of the past, and the Belaks, Cross', and Chara's are going to have to use more than just size to play the game.
The specialty player wil return to the NHL and Opening of the game and the calling of obstruction etc, Smaller goalies, bigger nets , no read line .. will all promote skill over size .. Ken Dryden even suggested the NHL consider 4 on 4 the whole game to open it up to the skill players ..

Where before your team carried a designated Fighter or two on the bench.. Now you will see PP, PK and Shootout specialist to win games..

After all 1-1 on the goal in the shootout, does size, skating speed, physical play really matter ??

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06-10-2005, 10:19 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
The specialty player wil return to the NHL and Opening of the game and the calling of obstruction etc, Smaller goalies, bigger nets , no read line .. will all promote skill over size .. Ken Dryden even suggested the NHL consider 4 on 4 the whole game to open it up to the skill players ..

Where before your team carried a designated Fighter or two on the bench.. Now you will see PP, PK and Shootout specialist to win games..

After all 1-1 on the goal in the shootout, does size, skating speed, physical play really matter ??
thats assuming that with all this offensive skill, the game still somehow ends up tied AND remaining tied during a 4 on 4 OT

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06-10-2005, 10:28 AM
  #44
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Reasons why the Leafs will suck, by year:

1998-1999- They're not going anywhere with three rookies on defence. Thomas is washed up and Berezin and Modin are not good enough to be top 6 players.

Result- 97 points

1999-2000- Last year was a fluke. Thomas can't repeat his season and the young players will fall back down to Earth.

Result- 100 points

2000-2001- The Devils dominated the playoff series last year. The other teams have figured out how to play them and the Leafs don't have the ability to compete with the trap.

Result- 90 points

2001-2002- The NHL is cracking down on obstruction. The Leafs rely too heavily on obstruction don't have the speed to compete in the new NHL.

Result- 100 points

2002-2003- The Leafs relied too heavily on Cujo all these years. His loss will finally be their demise. Belfour is washed up and is too old to carry the team like Cujo did.

Result- 98 points

2003-2004- Now they really are too old. They won't be able to handle the long season and they could be out of contention by spring. Don't be surprised to see them selling off assets at the trade deadline.

Result- 103 points

2005-2006- They've lost their "spending advantage" and they're going to have to rely on too many young players. This year really will be their demise (grins and rubs hands together).

Result- ???

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06-10-2005, 10:32 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat
thats assuming that with all this offensive skill, the game still somehow ends up tied AND remaining tied during a 4 on 4 OT
It doesn't change anything really IMO .... 5 -5 going into OT is the same as 1 -1 ..

The Oilers of the 1980's may have been the best skilled team ever assembled and they played next goal wins late into the 3rd period to pull off a 7-6 win ..

Same result as before just more goals, and higher scores ..that's all IMO ..

Then after saying the more goals lines above ...I thought ...That leads to better offensive stats -----> leads to higher contract demands, and arbitration rewards ------->which leads to escalating salaries...

Lets hope watered down NHL teams can generate more league Revenue to compensate or they better start working on the next CBA to put a Hard Cap on goals scored per game .. maybe first team to 3 wins so that the greedy players can't get more money in the future ..

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06-10-2005, 10:35 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kill 'Em All
(7.5) -- McCabe (3.5) - Aucoin (4.0)

McCabe -.5 for 3 million annually.

Aucoin 4 million in the old NHL, this new one pays Aucoin type players 2.5 to 3.0 a year as UFA.

Who else is available at 3? Hamrlik? Leetch? ???

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06-10-2005, 10:53 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
Obviously the whole goal is to win the Cup. But this discussion is about whether or not the Leafs will remain competitive. And they will.
You know this line triggered a interesting idea ..

The Leafs are an older team and are built for a win now mentality .. A good GM could sell this to UFA on both his team and the league ..

If he can get a lot of players to buy into this and the NHLPA may even support it to prove that a Hard Cap does not bring parity ..

What is stopping a smart GM from selling this almost like the Ray Bourque retirement with a cup campaign ..

The Leafs went into the lockout with 62 mil and a full roster except Poni signed .. If Fergy could call a team meeting and say if everyone is willing to take a 50% pay cut in year one of transition then you guys get one more kick at a Stanley Cup

Think about that $62 Mil / 2 ( ie. 50% off) = $31 mil and that is the worse case Salary Cap for year one the globe and mail reported ($36 mil Cap - $5 mil salary extras) = $31 mil ..

The players are giving back 24% already .. make it another 26% and everyone keeps their jobs.. (some of which would happen anyways with restructuring and buyouts)

If Fergy could sell it you 2005-06 team could look like this

Roberts .....Sundin ......Mogilny
Tucker.......Stajan........Nolan
Poni..........Newy.........Antropov
Steen .......Welly.........Domi

Leetch .......McCabe
Kaberle.......Klee
Colaiacovo..Berg

Belfour
Telly

Extras: Wilm, Belak, Pilar, Kilger

If they did win then you would see lots of turnover year 2 as lots of vets retire and contracts end ..who is to say a Lindros or Allison will not want a part of that either.??

I would like to see that for no other reasons then for a rude awakening to the doom and gloom soothsayers that say Toronto is done in Bettman's NHL.

and a Crosby lottery win would just be the icing on the cake to boot


Last edited by Mess: 06-10-2005 at 11:02 AM.
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06-10-2005, 12:18 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army

2005-2006- They've lost their "spending advantage" and they're going to have to rely on too many young players. This year really will be their demise (grins and rubs hands together).

Result- ???
80 points +/- 10

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06-10-2005, 12:19 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
Say goodbye to:
Joe Nieuwendyk
Gary Roberts
Alex Mogilny
Tie Domi
Robert Reichel
Mikael Renberg
Trevor Kidd

Buy out/trade/dump:
Ken Klee

UFAs to sign/re-sign:
Eric Lindros
Jason Allison
Brian Leetch
Bryan Marchment

Newcomers:
Alex Steen
Kyle Wellwood
Carlo Colaiacovo
Mikael Tellqvist
Roman Kukumberg
Colin Murphy
Clarke Wilm

Salaries:
Sundin................$4.8 million
Belfour.................4.5
Nolan...................3.6
McCabe................3.5
Leetch.................3.5
Kaberle.................2.2
Tucker.................1.6
Lindros.................1.5
Allison..................1.3
Antropov...............1.1
Berg.....................0.9
Stajan..................0.8
Wellwood ..............0.8
Colaiacovo.............0.8
Steen...................0.8
Ponikarovksy..........0.7
Belak....................0.6
Kukumberg.............0.5
Murphy.................0.5
Marchment............0.5
Pilar.....................0.5
Tellqvist................0.5
Wilm.....................0.5
Total...................$36 million

Lineup:

Steen-----------Sundin------Lindros
Ponikarovsky----Allison------Antropov
Tucker----------Stajan-------Nolan
Kukumberg------Wellwood----Murphy

Leetch------McCabe
Kaberle------Berg
Colaiacovo---Marchment

Belfour
Tellqvist

Spares:
Wilm
Belak
Pilar

.
hope it happens well be better if it deose

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06-10-2005, 12:22 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
You know this line triggered a interesting idea ..

The Leafs are an older team and are built for a win now mentality .. A good GM could sell this to UFA on both his team and the league ..

If he can get a lot of players to buy into this and the NHLPA may even support it to prove that a Hard Cap does not bring parity ..

What is stopping a smart GM from selling this almost like the Ray Bourque retirement with a cup campaign ..

The Leafs went into the lockout with 62 mil and a full roster except Poni signed .. If Fergy could call a team meeting and say if everyone is willing to take a 50% pay cut in year one of transition then you guys get one more kick at a Stanley Cup

Think about that $62 Mil / 2 ( ie. 50% off) = $31 mil and that is the worse case Salary Cap for year one the globe and mail reported ($36 mil Cap - $5 mil salary extras) = $31 mil ..

The players are giving back 24% already .. make it another 26% and everyone keeps their jobs.. (some of which would happen anyways with restructuring and buyouts)

If Fergy could sell it you 2005-06 team could look like this

Roberts .....Sundin ......Mogilny
Tucker.......Stajan........Nolan
Poni..........Newy.........Antropov
Steen .......Welly.........Domi

Leetch .......McCabe
Kaberle.......Klee
Colaiacovo..Berg

Belfour
Telly

Extras: Wilm, Belak, Pilar, Kilger

If they did win then you would see lots of turnover year 2 as lots of vets retire and contracts end ..who is to say a Lindros or Allison will not want a part of that either.??

I would like to see that for no other reasons then for a rude awakening to the doom and gloom soothsayers that say Toronto is done in Bettman's NHL.

and a Crosby lottery win would just be the icing on the cake to boot
platyers now that the leafs are not in cup winning position why would they sgn here?

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