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06-10-2005, 02:47 PM
  #76
ULF_55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4
That's a reasonable complaint. However, when a poster suggests that all the Leafs need do to meet cap requirement is convince their entire roster to take a 50% pay cut, you have to expect a response.
Yes, but that 50% can be made up with team bonuses that don't count under the cap.

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06-10-2005, 02:50 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4
That's a reasonable complaint. However, when a poster suggests that all the Leafs need do to meet cap requirement is convince their entire roster to take a 50% pay cut, you have to expect a response.
And someone educated on the subject knows that the Leafs will have 9 players under contract for next year ONLY ..

The remaining 16 players have NO say as they are UFA currently getting ZERO $$$ and or RFA ..

Those 8 players above have already agreed to a 24% reduction ..

So to make my statement true that means then those 9 players have to negotiate 26% off next year, which will be added to a future year and your whole team returns IF they are willing to accept what Leafs are offering ..

Since Stajan and Telly are 2 of the 8 and only make 800-600k .. I am saying if Sundin, Belour, Nolan, McCabe, Tucker, Kaberle, & Klee need to renogotiate a 26% further reduction and last years team to return in full..

IF Mogilny and Roberts do not want to play for $2.5 mil then Allison and Lindros certainly will .. IMO

Doesn't sound so unrealistic now does it ??

Thanks again for your imput though I just got to add 1 to my post total ..


Last edited by Mess: 06-10-2005 at 02:58 PM.
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06-10-2005, 02:52 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
Yes, but that 50% can be made up with team bonuses that don't count under the cap.
Hey, don't try and pin that comment on me

You have to love Mogilny's reported offer - it's a good start.


Last edited by habfan4: 06-10-2005 at 02:58 PM.
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06-10-2005, 02:57 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
And someone educated on the subject knows that the Leafs will have 8 players under contract for next year ONLY ..

The remaining 16 players have NO say as they are UFA currently getting ZERO $$$ and or RFA ..

Those 8 players above have already agreed to a 24% reduction ..

So to make my statement true that means then those 8 players have to negotiate 26% off next year, which will be added to a future year and your whole team returns IF they are willing to accept what Leafs are offering ..

IF Mogilny and Roberts do not want to play for $2.5 mil then Allison and Lindros certainly will .. IMO

Thanks again for your imput though I just got to add 1 to my post total ..
You can spin your suggestion any way you want, in as many different fonts as you want. Whether it's a 26% pay reduction in addition to whatever sum is negotiated in the CBA or an extended deal for the same money, it still doesn't make it anything more than complete fantasy on your part.

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06-10-2005, 03:00 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4
Hey, don't try and pin that comment on me

You have to love Mogilny reported offer - it's a good start.
It is just the beginning of the NFL strategy for capology.

Since the Leafs have 8 players signed already for this year only, they can easily do a NFL contract for Pronger. Offer him 1 million for this year and 6 million for years 2-5.

That is a very reasonable approach to contracts under a hard cap scenario, and DOES happen all the time.

Just means next year neither Nolan or McCabe get offers.

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06-10-2005, 03:03 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4
You can spin your suggestion any way you want, in as many different fonts as you want. Whether it's a 26% pay reduction in addition to whatever sum is negotiated in the CBA or an extended deal for the same money, it still doesn't make it anything more than complete fantasy on your part.
Not surprised you would have trouble understanding, I had a feeling you would, after all this isn't your home board and we speak at a different level here..

I am sure my fellow Leaf fans have no problem with the discussion ..

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06-10-2005, 03:09 PM
  #82
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Hab and senator fans are going to be upset when we ice a good team this season.

But what can you do? You can't please everybody.

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06-10-2005, 03:14 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
It is just the beginning of the NFL strategy for capology.

Since the Leafs have 8 players signed already for this year only, they can easily do a NFL contract for Pronger. Offer him 1 million for this year and 6 million for years 2-5.

That is a very reasonable approach to contracts under a hard cap scenario, and DOES happen all the time.

Just means next year neither Nolan or McCabe get offers.
Without getting into an exhaustive discussion on the differences between the NFL and the NHL (i.e. franchise player designation, no guaranteed contracts etc...). I think it is a bit early to suggest that NHL GMs will be approaching player contracts the same way their NFL counterparts do.

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06-10-2005, 03:17 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese
Hab and senator fans are going to be upset when we ice a good team this season.

But what can you do? You can't please everybody.
For the record and to answer your generalization, I think the Leafs will ice a competitive team this coming year, one that will feature younger players in more prominent roles.

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06-10-2005, 03:26 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
Not surprised you would have trouble understanding, I had a feeling you would, after all this isn't your home board and we speak at a different level here..

I am sure my fellow Leaf fans have no problem with the discussion ..
I have to admit to being a little disappointed, I expected a lengthier and more colourful (literally) response from you - C'est la vie.

In terms of my "home board", well in these dark days of the lock out, I guess it would be the Politics Board. Where, I can assure you that posts such as your (50% reduction post) which are based on a mind boggling level of assumption would be beaten down like a narc at biker rally.

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06-10-2005, 03:27 PM
  #86
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Just for farts:

Goal: 5 million

Belfour 4.5
Tellqvist .5


Defense: 12 million

Pronger 1.0 - Kaberle 2.2
McCabe 3.5 - Leetch 2.4
Ken Klee 1.9 - Berg .5
Pilar .5


Forward: 19.3

Nolan 4.5 - Sundin 6.0 - Palffy 1.0
Antropov .8 - Niewy 1.5 - Poni .5
Stajan .5 - Tucker 1.5 - Lindros 1.5
Kukemberg .5 - Welly .5 - Steen .5



Of course Palffy and Pronger's deals are back-end loaded, but Nolan and McCabe/Belfour won't be around in 2006-2007 season.

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06-10-2005, 03:33 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4
Without getting into an exhaustive discussion on the differences between the NFL and the NHL (i.e. franchise player designation, no guaranteed contracts etc...). I think it is a bit early to suggest that NHL GMs will be approaching player contracts the same way their NFL counterparts do.
Simply put, Leafs only have 2 contracts that extend beyond this year, Belfour and Sundin.

But yes, I agree you won't see teams signing players to $55 million multi-year contracts and then releasing that player 2 years later because the contracts in the NHL are guaranteed. So a 5 year 25 million dollar deal might be the extreme today, compared to 6 year $60 million deal of the old NHL.

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06-10-2005, 03:34 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
Of course Palffy and Pronger's deals are back-end loaded, but Nolan and McCabe/Belfour won't be around in 2006-2007 season.
Could be wrong, but aren't contracts generally averaged out over the term (eg Pronger 1 mil then 7 mil, avg 4 mil season to be applied to cap) when it comes to these types of deals?

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06-10-2005, 03:43 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar
Could be wrong, but aren't contracts generally averaged out over the term (eg Pronger 1 mil then 7 mil, avg 4 mil season to be applied to cap) when it comes to these types of deals?
We have no idea, do we?

Bonuses are usually spread over the length of the deal, the operative being usually.

I'd say everything is new, and wouldn't it be up to the player to decide if he was willing to accept only 1 million in year one? In the NBA contracts are restructured all the time, and I believe it also happens in the NFL. Why restructure if it didn't impact the cap because of averaging?

Ex: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/foo...re_packers_ap/

"It's not about new money," he said. "It's just a restructuring of his current deal to enable the team to have some cap room to sign some other players."

The negotiations do not extend the seven-year, $47.25 million contract that Favre signed in July 1997, Cook, of Hattiesburg, Miss., said.

It involves adjustments of the $5.35 million base salary this year, he said.

...
I didn't say we reduced anything," he said. "We just rearranged things a little bit."

"


So here we see a contract is restructured, but the contract isn't extended and they mentioned they weren't talking about a reduction.

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06-10-2005, 03:48 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
Just for farts:

Goal: 5 million

Belfour 4.5
Tellqvist .5


Defense: 12 million

Pronger 1.0 - Kaberle 2.2
McCabe 3.5 - Leetch 2.4
Ken Klee 1.9 - Berg .5
Pilar .5


Forward: 19.3

Nolan 4.5 - Sundin 6.0 - Palffy 1.0
Antropov .8 - Niewy 1.5 - Poni .5
Stajan .5 - Tucker 1.5 - Lindros 1.5
Kukemberg .5 - Welly .5 - Steen .5



Of course Palffy and Pronger's deals are back-end loaded, but Nolan and McCabe/Belfour won't be around in 2006-2007 season.

a) why would pronger only play for 1m?
b) why would palffy play for only 1m?
c) why will mccabe leave? dont you mean leetch?
d) why would we have wellwood and steen, two offensive minded prospects, on the fourth line? that just boggled my mind...

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06-10-2005, 03:53 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat
a) why would pronger only play for 1m?
b) why would palffy play for only 1m?
c) why will mccabe leave? dont you mean leetch?
d) why would we have wellwood and steen, two offensive minded prospects, on the fourth line? that just boggled my mind...
a) Because his salary would be $6 per year in subsequent years.
b) Because his salary would be $5 per year in subsequent years.
c) He would be a casualty of the cap.
d) The NNHL is going to be about all out offense. No room for Belaks in the NNHL.

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06-10-2005, 03:54 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
Simply put, Leafs only have 2 contracts that extend beyond this year, Belfour and Sundin.
Ok - Thing is, I wasn't in the camp that suggested that the Leafs will have to gut their team or that they are even in bad shape going forward.

I think that depending on how draconian or enlightened (depending on your perspective) the cost restraints in the new CBA, the Leafs may look different (not necessarily worse). As I posted earlier they may simply use the youngsters in more prominent/expanded roles instead of using new signings or reupping vets to plug roster holes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
But yes, I agree you won't see teams signing players to $55 million multi-year contracts and then releasing that player 2 years later because the contracts in the NHL are guaranteed. So a 5 year 25 million dollar deal might be the extreme today, compared to 6 year $60 million deal of the old NHL.
Who says a hab fan and a leaf can can't agree.

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06-10-2005, 04:01 PM
  #93
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Unknown GM to Bettman:

"I asked him quite clearly is (the cap), in fact, true?" said the general manager. "He said: `No.' I asked `Is there any kind of team-by-team cap?' Again, he said `No.`


So, reading what this GM was told by Bettman, there is no cap.


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06-10-2005, 04:12 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar
Could be wrong, but aren't contracts generally averaged out over the term (eg Pronger 1 mil then 7 mil, avg 4 mil season to be applied to cap) when it comes to these types of deals?
I think the bid difference Dar is guaranteed NHL contracts verses NFL non guaranteed contracts ..

In the NFL the average because then the team could take the first low amount towards the cap and walk away for the second year ..

In the NHL as in Ulfs example. $1 mil year 1 and $ 6 mil year 2 . . It wouldn't work if you bought out the player in year 2 and you are averaging the contract and it counts toward the cap ..

You are buying out a $6 mil contract in year 2 and averaged (1 mil + 6 mil = $7 mil /2 = $3.5 average towards cap each year .. A smart GM would use buyouts to get the player more money in his pocket..

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06-10-2005, 05:28 PM
  #95
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Included in a Cap currently


Quote:

The Post has learned that the league's offer of a $42.5M team ceiling featured the following elements that the NHL did not release to the public when it plastered the proposal on its various web sites:

All annual individual signing bonuses contained in contracts.
All personal achievement bonus payouts.
All contract buyouts.
All annual signing bonuses for players in Entry Level System
All players on Injured Reserve.
All players in minor leagues earning over $75,000.

http://www.nypost.com/sports/41703.htm

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06-10-2005, 06:29 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
The Leafs went into the lockout with 62 mil and a full roster except Poni signed .. If Fergy could call a team meeting and say if everyone is willing to take a 50% pay cut in year one of transition then you guys get one more kick at a Stanley Cup

Think about that $62 Mil / 2 ( ie. 50% off) = $31 mil and that is the worse case Salary Cap for year one the globe and mail reported ($36 mil Cap - $5 mil salary extras) = $31 mil ..

The players are giving back 24% already .. make it another 26% and everyone keeps their jobs.. (some of which would happen anyways with restructuring and buyouts)
You are reaching the outher limits of fantasy fringing on insanity. What on earth makes you think that NHL players who just lost an entire year because of a bargining dispute and lost that dispute already having to give back 24% of their salary, will accept to take another 28% pay cut just to please their overzealous fans? These are NHL players and believe me, if another team offers them more money, they'll take it and run. I think you are over-evaluating their love for the Leafs and Toronto in a major way.

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06-10-2005, 06:49 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fozz
You are reaching the outher limits of fantasy fringing on insanity. .
I refer to it as thinking outside the box ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fozz
What on earth makes you think that NHL players who just lost an entire year because of a bargining dispute and lost that dispute already having to give back 24% of their salary, will accept to take another 28% pay cut just to please their overzealous fans? .
I explained it all here once already.

http://www.hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2947475&postcount=77

Bottom Line 8 players under contract, 9 if you count Telly .. Small impact on a few players and the additional 28% is not lost just defered to next year ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fozz
These are NHL players and believe me, if another team offers them more money, they'll take it and run. I think you are over-evaluating their love for the Leafs and Toronto in a major way.
At the age of Mogilny, Roberts and Newy I am not so sure they are prepared to relocate family at such a late stage.. Do you ??

Mogilny today said he would talk a 3 mil pay cut to stay in TO .. Roberts owns a downtown Toronto Fitness club not sure he is ready to pick up and move at his age. Roberts and Newy are offering a 2-1 package deal ala Kariya and Selanne to the Leafs to stay .. Good indication they want to stay .. Leetch is either NYR or TOR for him and who knows if the NYR want him back ..

Think about the players Nolan ,Sundin both have never one a cup and Bellour about to turn 40 .. Do they want to go through a rebuilding phase or is it better to take a little off this years contract and add it to next year .. ??

Its a whole new world and you have to think creatively ..

Who is more likely to take a pay cut a player that has been a long time member and living in Toronto or someone new coming in and offering his services ??

You are going to see teams hire capoligists very soon after a CBA is signed to help them .. I give them my ideas for free ..


Last edited by Mess: 06-10-2005 at 07:01 PM.
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06-10-2005, 11:00 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4
That's a reasonable complaint. However, when a poster suggests that all the Leafs need do to meet cap requirement is convince their entire roster to take a 50% pay cut, you have to expect a response.
Naturally. I appreciate friendly disagreement and I really like it when fans of other teams enter into the discussion. I just felt that one particular poster was being unbearably patronising in his or her tone.

My response was not particularly brilliant, either, but there you go.

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06-10-2005, 11:02 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4
. . .

Who says a hab fan and a leaf can can't agree.
I'm with you.

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06-11-2005, 09:51 AM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
I refer to it as thinking outside the box ..

I explained it all here once already.

http://www.hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2947475&postcount=77

Bottom Line 8 players under contract, 9 if you count Telly .. Small impact on a few players and the additional 28% is not lost just defered to next year ..

At the age of Mogilny, Roberts and Newy I am not so sure they are prepared to relocate family at such a late stage.. Do you ??

Mogilny today said he would talk a 3 mil pay cut to stay in TO .. Roberts owns a downtown Toronto Fitness club not sure he is ready to pick up and move at his age. Roberts and Newy are offering a 2-1 package deal ala Kariya and Selanne to the Leafs to stay .. Good indication they want to stay .. Leetch is either NYR or TOR for him and who knows if the NYR want him back ..

Think about the players Nolan ,Sundin both have never one a cup and Bellour about to turn 40 .. Do they want to go through a rebuilding phase or is it better to take a little off this years contract and add it to next year .. ??

Its a whole new world and you have to think creatively ..

Who is more likely to take a pay cut a player that has been a long time member and living in Toronto or someone new coming in and offering his services ??

You are going to see teams hire capoligists very soon after a CBA is signed to help them .. I give them my ideas for free ..
You can dream up these scenarios all you want... Still not going to happen.

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