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Is Mike Gillis a good GM?

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Old
07-05-2013, 01:18 PM
  #126
Vorkosh
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Originally Posted by MrShift4 View Post
Holy Crap!!!!

There is no win in cap space this year or last!!!!!
AMEX line wasn't together long enough to make the declaration that they were ever flying.
A real goal is when it goes past a goalie. Booth had none of them last year.
Booth is crap.
There is always cap space. Since the implementation of the salary cap, there has always been cap space.

Empty Netters don't count?

Better tell Lemieux his 5 goals 5 different ways is actually 4 goals 4 different ways then.

Booth is/was injured. Injured =/ crap. Or well maybe it does since your brain is injured.

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07-05-2013, 01:21 PM
  #127
MrShift4
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Originally Posted by Vorkosh View Post
There is always cap space. Since the implementation of the salary cap, there has always been cap space.

Empty Netters don't count?

Better tell Lemieux his 5 goals 5 different ways is actually 4 goals 4 different ways then.

Booth is/was injured. Injured =/ crap. Or well maybe it does since your brain is injured.
Booth and Lemieux in the same post LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
And my brain is injured

There is no cap space for the Canucks and Booth is the biggest cause of this problem.

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07-05-2013, 01:23 PM
  #128
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He continues to know what he is doing, no stupid signings again (so far lol)

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07-05-2013, 01:24 PM
  #129
Soth
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Originally Posted by MrShift4 View Post
There is no cap space for the Canucks and Booth is the biggest cause of this problem.
The cap being lowered is the biggest cause of the problem imo

A lot of teams are feeling the crunch from the lowered cap, and it isn't because the teams have bad GMs. It is because this was an UNFORSEEN development. How Gillis adjusts to this is something you can judge him on though.

Canucks are going to struggle a bit this season because of the cap changes, and we'll need our young players to step up if we want to be contenders. But when the cap goes up next year we'll have room to breathe again, and this will improve.

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07-05-2013, 01:27 PM
  #130
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Horrid with asset management.

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07-05-2013, 01:47 PM
  #131
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Far better than Nonis, just above average overall.

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07-05-2013, 02:13 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrShift4 View Post
Booth and Lemieux in the same post LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
And my brain is injured

There is no cap space for the Canucks and Booth is the biggest cause of this problem.
We also have a need for a second line winger, would we be better off dumping Booth and signing a guy like Clowe or Clarkson?

Anyways onto the topic, people are giving Gillis a bad grade on drafting & developing. Now he joined the team in the 2008 offseason, but since he was just taking on the job I would consider his first real draft to be 2009. The general rule of thumb is that it takes at least 5 years to properly judge a draft class, which means this upcoming season is judgement day for his first full draft. So exactly what is he being judged by here? More to the point, look at other top teams draft lists since 2009, you aren't exactly overflowing with NHL players just yet, rather it really doesn't look much different from the Canucks situation.

So basically, the Canucks did have pretty terrible drafting through the last decade. Burke never put much emphasis on drafting and development. Nonis on the other hand did, but he left the same scouting structure in place that Burke had with the biggest weakness being our head scout Mr. "I only need to watch the players practice" Ron Delorme, who's region was the WHL where we've been absolutely brutal. It wasn't an immediate change but Gillis has been slowly restructuring here, Delorme hasn't been fired but he's getting passed off to the side in favour of our OHL guy Eric Crawford who's been much better.

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Old
07-05-2013, 03:40 PM
  #133
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Why do Leaf fans start threads like this? You accuse Vancouver of having an inferiority complex but stuff like this reeks of it. Worry about your own problems, maybe get a hobby or go outside.

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07-05-2013, 03:48 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by JohnHodgson View Post
You mean we had no forward depth, 23rd in goals in 07-08?

Right, Gillis fixed that by bringing in Demitra, Sundin, Bernier and Wellwood, four players to help completely revamp our top nine bringing in depth and experience and definitely more scoring. He got rid of our old aging players, think Naslund and Morrison, and injected new blood. We improved to 11th in goals for the next year in 08-09. Here's a hint: Gillis did amazing. Assessed needs and found the right players.

Did he now?

Scoring in 2008-2009 season by players Gillis brought in:

Sundin 9G 19A
Demitra 20G 33A
Bernier 15G 17A
Wellwood 18G 9A

Total added scoring - 62G 78A

Scoring in 2007-2008 by players Gillis let walk/retire:

Naslund 25G 30A
Morrison 9G 16A
Pyatt 16G 21A
Linden 7G 5A

Total scoring lost - 57G 73A

So the net result of adding these players, which was made possible by letting other players walk, was a whopping 5 goals and 5 assists?? Again, this is a highly optimistic (or intentionally simplistic) assessment of why the team went from missing the playoffs one year and making playoffs the next.

But you make a good point about the increased goal totals in 2009, so lets look at the offense provided by the 'core' from 2008 to 2009:

D. Sedin +2G, +6A
H. Sedin +7G, -1A
A. Burrows +16G, +4A
R. Kesler +5G, +17A
M. Raymond +2G, 0A
J. Hansen +6G, +15A
K. Bieksa +9G, +22A
A. Edler +2G, +15A

That is a net increase of +49 goals and +78 assists just from the core group of players that were already in place in 2008. To be fair, Hansen played only 5 games in 2008 and Bieksa was hurt for a large portion of that year too, which of course also goes to explain why the team missed the playoffs that year (unless you think Nonis was responsible for Bieksa's sliced achilles that year). Nonetheless we see massive spikes in Burrows, Kesler, and Edler over the previous year. Of course some will attribute this to the "Sundin effect" or that somehow Gillis created a better environment for the team. I can't disprove that as a possibility, however neither can anyone substantially demonstrate that it is the case either. However I would suggest that coaches have a greater impact on actual on-ice play than GMs, so if there is credit to be given for pairing Burrows with the Sedins or for pairing Sundin with Kesler, I would tend to give it more to AV than to Gillis. Oh and it didn't hurt that AV had $10M to throw at Sundin due to the rising cap just to give Kesler a kick-start. Again, one more advantage the Gillis had in 2009 that Nonis did not have in 2008.

Anyway, feel free to continue to look at this in a highly simplistic way: Gillis arrives in 2009 -> Team made playoffs in 2009 = Gillis made team make playoffs. A more thorough inquiry will show it isn't this simple at all. In fact it is highly likely, given the improvement of existing players, rising cap, and declining competitiveness of the NW division in 2009 that a Nonis-led team would have also made the playoffs in 2009. Considering the team's 88 points in 2008 would have had them miss the playoffs by just 3 points in 2009, it is hard to envision a scenario where a healthy Bieksa and older, more developed core of players doesn't make up those 3 points and make the playoffs in 2009 under Nonis. I'm willing to give Gillis credit for the things he has actually done. I'm not willing to give him credit for things that the coach, players, and league-wide forces did for him.

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Old
07-05-2013, 03:55 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Hammer Time View Post
Demitra was an important piece. 20 goals is pretty significant - if Vancouver missed the playoffs by 3 points in 2007-08, those 20 goals might have been enough to make them a playoff team. And of course, Sundin+Demitra on the team allowed AV to slide Burrows up to the Sedin line, thus creating one of the most dominant forward lines in the NHL in recent memory.

The biggest reason of the turnaround, however, was Luongo having a much better season (he struggled down the stretch in 2007-08, and was a Vezina candidate in 2008-09).

See my post above re: Demitra's added offense. The net is basically +5 goals over the entire season between the 4 key pieces Gillis added and the 4 pieces he let walk. That alone can't explain the massive improvement shown by the team from the previous year.

I agree with the Burrows assessment, as his jump from 12 to 28 goals was a huge part of the improved offense, but again I have trouble giving credit to the GM for a decision made by the coach. A coach that, by the way, was also already in place when Gillis got here.

Also agree on the Luongo point, which is another example of how the turnaround may have coincided with Gillis' arrival, but it was not caused (entirely) by it.

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07-05-2013, 04:11 PM
  #136
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You can't straight up use statistics in that way to skew your numbers. That's beyond stupidity. Probably one of the worst arguments you could use is utilizing stats and talking about net gains and whatnot. You're straight up assuming that Naslund and Linden and such would have replicated those numbers a year later.

Also, Gillis never let Pyatt walk in 08-09. Pyatt scored 19 points in 69 games in the 08-09 year. So you base your entire argument on statistics but you fail to get it correct. HfBoards, a place where fools are born by the minute.

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07-05-2013, 04:40 PM
  #137
CanaFan
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Originally Posted by JohnHodgson View Post
You can't straight up use statistics in that way to skew your numbers. That's beyond stupidity. Probably one of the worst arguments you could use is utilizing stats and talking about net gains and whatnot. You're straight up assuming that Naslund and Linden and such would have replicated those numbers a year later.

Also, Gillis never let Pyatt walk in 08-09. Pyatt scored 19 points in 69 games in the 08-09 year. So you base your entire argument on statistics but you fail to get it correct. HfBoards, a place where fools are born by the minute.

My bad on Pyatt, I thought he was gone in 2009 but obviously not. As for skewing stats, who is skewing stats? You claimed that Gillis "fixed the top 9" by bringing in certain players, so I showed that the net add of these players specifically wasn't a significant contributor to the gain in offense. Outside of my Pyatt error, I stand by that assessment. If you want to assert that it was the "mix" of players that Gillis brought in - for example by playing with Sundin Kesler had a better year - go ahead and show me some evidence of this. Except you can't prove this is why Kesler improved, any more than I can prove it was because Kesler was a year older and a year better. The only difference is that you seem to be fine with attributing Kesler's success to Gillis (via Sundin) whereas I am not.

Secondly, my point wasn't that Naslund would have replicate those numbers in 2009. If that is what you think, you have a poor reading comprehension. I said that the reason for the IMPROVEMENT in 2009 wasn't due to swapping Naslund for Demitra. In other words what Demitra brought to the Canucks in 2009 - his 20 goals and 53 points - isn't any better than what Naslund brought in 2008 - his 25 goals and 60 points. So if Demitra didn't bring more offense (actually less) - and please don't tell me he is somehow a more complete or defensive player - then the swap had no direct impact on the team's improvement. Rather the improvement came from elsewhere, likely the other factors I have pointed out numerous times (developing players, declining NW teams).

So funny that I attempt to bring some thoughtful analysis to this discussion, and yet you are the one who whoops and yells about fools on HF Boards. How about you give some attempt to explain how Gillis actually made the Canucks a playoff team in 2009 beyond just the obvious fact that he was here, rather than throw childish barbs around. If you can that is.

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07-05-2013, 04:46 PM
  #138
BoHorvatFan
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
He continues to know what he is doing, no stupid signings again (so far lol)
Well he's left himself with zero cap space so even if he wanted to sign somebody he wouldn't be able to.

I think it's genius to go into next season with a slightly worse version of a team that's won 1 playoff game in two years with a closing Sedin window. Pure brilliance I'm sure he'd agree.

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07-05-2013, 04:49 PM
  #139
Sergei Shirokov
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He's a pretty good GM.

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07-05-2013, 04:53 PM
  #140
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Yes, he is a good GM. The guy won GM of the Year just a few seasons back.

He botched the goalie issue and I believe most people blame the Ballard debacle on AV and not Gillis.

He is not the worst GM in the league and not even the worst GM in Western Canada.

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07-05-2013, 04:56 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by The Duke View Post
Yes, he is a good GM. The guy won GM of the Year just a few seasons back.

He botched the goalie issue and I believe most people blame the Ballard debacle on AV and not Gillis.

He is not the worst GM in the league and not even the worst GM in Western Canada.
He would have to be the worst GM in the league to be the worst GM in western Canada

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07-05-2013, 04:58 PM
  #142
Sergei Shirokov
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Originally Posted by MrShift4 View Post
Quick summation of my feelings

Booth trade - so ****ing bad I nearly get an aneurysm every time I think about it. Why trade for a guy with that cap hit whose biggest career highlight is getting plastered at the blueline while admiring a pass. Where's my Advil?

Hodgson/Kassian trade - good in theory. Hodgson didn't fit in and the Canucks needed a big bruising winger that could hopefully score. I just think the Canucks could have gotten more back in the deal (some sort of draft pick at least).

Ballard trade - good when it happened. Bad that he didn't trade him when it was realized that the coach would not play him.

Schneider trade - won't know for sure for a while but I think it is good. Just good to have something done with the goalie situation.



That's all that stands out right now.
Was a great trade, Booth just hasn't been healthy, yeah the cap hit is a bit high but thats why we got him for nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beezeral View Post
You can't butcher the luongo/Schneider situation this badly and be considered a good gm. Sorry. But for a gm that has no restrictions other than the Salary cap, he's average at best
Actually he does, our ownership didn't want to buyout Luongo, thats why Schneider was traded.

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07-05-2013, 04:59 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by The Duke View Post
Yes, he is a good GM. The guy won GM of the Year just a few seasons back.

He botched the goalie issue and I believe most people blame the Ballard debacle on AV and not Gillis.

He is not the worst GM in the league and not even the worst GM in Western Canada.
Since he won GM of the year he's been swept in the first round and lost in 5 games in the first round and has a really depleted roster right now. That's poor management. Was he a good GM 3 years ago when he had lots of cap space to play with and Sedins putting up 100 points and Luongo playing great? yeah sure, but most GM's would thrive in that setting.

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07-05-2013, 04:59 PM
  #144
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lol @ booth bad trade.

99% of hf boards called it a criminal steal by gillis, Nobody saw his struggles here, mostly due 2 injury's.

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07-05-2013, 05:03 PM
  #145
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He is horrible, the goalie situation was a joke and is still ongoing, the Although I am a fan of Kassian, the Hodgeson deal has yet to make a positive impact, he is arrogant and stubborn, much like a former leafs gm. Torts is a great coach and Gillis is hanging his continued employment on him, this has to be Gillis' last chance.

He is brutal, just brutal.

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07-05-2013, 05:07 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
lol @ booth bad trade.

99% of hf boards called it a criminal steal by gillis, Nobody saw his struggles here, mostly due 2 injury's.
Salary dump by Florida. People who watched Florida saw what Booth was - injury prone with tunnel vision player being paid 4 million a year.

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07-05-2013, 05:08 PM
  #147
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Salary dump by Florida. People who watched Florida saw what Booth was - injury prone with tunnel vision player being paid 4 million a year.
Thats exactly what he was and is, but it was a total steal because we gave up nothing, a steal that is hurting us bad right now cap space wise.

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07-05-2013, 05:13 PM
  #148
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He's a pretty good GM.
If he was in a 2 team league with Feaster's flames.

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07-05-2013, 05:19 PM
  #149
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He continues to know what he is doing, no stupid signings again (so far lol)
I'm willing to bet Leaf fans wish they could say the same about Nonis after today...cripes.

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07-05-2013, 05:19 PM
  #150
Sergei Shirokov
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If he was in a 2 team league with Feaster's flames.
Nope in the 30 team NHL.

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