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07-14-2013, 05:44 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by crashman View Post
That's BS. The team would have been "softer" last year, and they actually played fine (usually better) against the physical teams like Anaheim, St. Louis and LA.

Alfredsson is less soft (for lack of a better term) than Brunner, and Weiss is no softer than Filppula, and if Helm, Sammy and Bertuzzi play it adds even more grit.

Our defense is actually pretty physical overall, more so than they get credit for.
And we just lost cleary in our lineup for who?
Had we replaced Brunner with Iginla and Cleary with Morrow, we could have added some toughness.

I don't see how anyone can call our defense "actually pretty physical overall."
Our team was credited with 865 hits last year -- second lowest in the league to Chicago. Looks like our defense was credited with 296 of those hits. Chicago had 291 on D.

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07-14-2013, 05:46 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
The point of the game isn't to put together the toughest team possible.
Oh please. Nobody even said that was the case. Nobody said we should be the toughest team possible.
But there is such a thing as balance.

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07-14-2013, 05:46 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Oh please. Nobody even said that was the case. Nobody said we should be the toughest team possible.
But there is such a thing as balance.
If you can win with a soft team, there's no need to fight or scrum. Maybe other teams push the Wings around, but the Wings push the puck into the net. That's the only pushing that matters.

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07-14-2013, 05:48 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Not sure anyone around here cares about the Swedish stuff. Stuart was good, but overrated after '08 though, his physicality in the corners was slightly above average. I think Ericsson provides similar toughness there and in front of the net. I don't like to participate in those 'toughness' debates since since '02 there have been fans saying the Wings were too soft. Even in '08 people considered the Wings a soft team, the proof will be in the pudding.
Ericsson is nowhere near as much a gamer as Stuart.


The Wings are soft. And we've left ourselves in the position where, if we don't replace Cleary (with Cleary or someone like him) we're even softer than last year.

If people wish to fancy the Wings as tough, by all means, go right ahead.

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07-14-2013, 05:49 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
If you can win with a soft team, there's no need to fight or scrum. Maybe other teams push the Wings around, but the Wings push the puck into the net. That's the only pushing that matters.
That's a great little slogan.

Tell it to Mike Babcock. I'm sure he'll get a chuckle out of it

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07-14-2013, 05:51 PM
  #306
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What makes toughness so valuable? Mind you, we're talking about toughness with regard to fighting and physicality.

If we're talking about willpower and resilience, Zetterberg is one of the toughest players in the league. and Cleary would be considered pretty damn tough as well. So I don't think that's a definition we could use. Detroit would already be a tough team.

Why does Detroit need to fight and scrum, exactly?

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07-14-2013, 05:51 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
That's a great little slogan.

Tell it to Mike Babcock. I'm sure he'll get a chuckle out of it
Babcock is the one who doesn't think fighters have a place in the league anymore, though. I think he'd probably agree, actually.

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07-14-2013, 06:00 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
And we just lost cleary in our lineup for who?
Had we replaced Brunner with Iginla and Cleary with Morrow, we could have added some toughness.

I don't see how anyone can call our defense "actually pretty physical overall."
Our team was credited with 865 hits last year -- second lowest in the league to Chicago. Looks like our defense was credited with 296 of those hits. Chicago had 291 on D.
I agree that Cleary adds some grit, but not more than Helm or Sammy. Plus I think it's just a matter of time before Cleary re-signs.

I really don't think hit stats translate into toughness.

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07-14-2013, 06:01 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
I don't see how anyone can call our defense "actually pretty physical overall."
Our team was credited with 865 hits last year -- second lowest in the league to Chicago. Looks like our defense was credited with 296 of those hits. Chicago had 291 on D.
IIRC they still had a pretty good season last year though

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07-14-2013, 06:04 PM
  #310
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IIRC they still had a pretty good season last year though
Exactly. We don't need to play big or be physically tough to be successful. Lidstrom was neither of those, but did it matter? Not really.

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07-14-2013, 06:08 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
Babcock is the one who doesn't think fighters have a place in the league anymore, though. I think he'd probably agree, actually.
Yeah, mainly because fighting never equals toughness. I like to think toughness has more to do with being able to take a hit and continue playing. Yzerman was one of the toughest players in league history and he barely dished out hits.

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07-14-2013, 06:12 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
Babcock is the one who doesn't think fighters have a place in the league anymore, though. I think he'd probably agree, actually.
Have I once even mentioned fighting?

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07-14-2013, 06:15 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
What makes toughness so valuable? Mind you, we're talking about toughness with regard to fighting and physicality.

If we're talking about willpower and resilience, Zetterberg is one of the toughest players in the league. and Cleary would be considered pretty damn tough as well. So I don't think that's a definition we could use. Detroit would already be a tough team.

Why does Detroit need to fight and scrum, exactly?
Have you ever played hockey against a team that hit you every time you touched the puck?

And if you ask me, we lost the Nashville series when Zetterberg was smashed into the boards by Weber and nobody responded.

A guy like Cleary works hard, but like Matlby, when the legs die, it's hard to get in on the forecheck and staple defensemen to the boards.

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07-14-2013, 06:16 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by crashman View Post
I agree that Cleary adds some grit, but not more than Helm or Sammy. Plus I think it's just a matter of time before Cleary re-signs.

I really don't think hit stats translate into toughness.
It translates into something.
And a team that hits a lot is generally not a soft team. And

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07-14-2013, 06:17 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Yeah, mainly because fighting never equals toughness. I like to think toughness has more to do with being able to take a hit and continue playing. Yzerman was one of the toughest players in league history and he barely dished out hits.
It's great that you like to think that.
But always taking hits and never dishing them out wears a team down.

A balanced team can play against teams of any style.

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07-14-2013, 06:23 PM
  #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
It's great that you like to think that.
But always taking hits and never dishing them out wears a team down.

A balanced team can play against teams of any style.
I don't think this team is that far off of '08 in terms of being able to wear a team down. You don't need to hit hard, just hit consistently. I think this Wings team does it and Babcock puts the players in the lineup who can and will do that. Drew Miller isn't a guy who hits hard, but he takes the body time after time. I think a healthy Darren Helm changes things too.

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07-14-2013, 06:28 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Have I once even mentioned fighting?
Then how is this Wings lineup not tough?

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07-14-2013, 06:33 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
Then how is this Wings lineup not tough?
We don't hit. We don't punish guys in our end or in front of our net. We don't hit their defensemen enough.

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07-14-2013, 06:35 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
I don't think this team is that far off of '08 in terms of being able to wear a team down. You don't need to hit hard, just hit consistently. I think this Wings team does it and Babcock puts the players in the lineup who can and will do that. Drew Miller isn't a guy who hits hard, but he takes the body time after time. I think a healthy Darren Helm changes things too.
Finishing checks is nice. But at some point, finishing a check and hitting hard is an entirely different and altogether more favorable outcome -- which is why I'll never understand why Tootoo was held out of the lineup.

But out coach is pretty stupid sometimes.

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07-14-2013, 06:55 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
IIRC they still had a pretty good season last year though
Pretty much dismantles the argument when the best team of past few years is soft by the hit numbers and pims.

We could use more guys like Oduya and Hjalmarsson, though.

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07-14-2013, 07:24 PM
  #321
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Pretty much dismantles the argument when the best team of past few years is soft by the hit numbers and pims.

We could use more guys like Oduya and Hjalmarsson, though.
Big fan of Oduya, guy quietly does his job very well.

I think in a couple years when Dekeyser puts on more weight his physical play will pick up.

Ericsson does a pretty good job being physical but it would be nice to have 2 physical stay at home guys that battle well like Oduya and Hjalmarsson.

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07-14-2013, 07:38 PM
  #322
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Big fan of Oduya, guy quietly does his job very well.

I think in a couple years when Dekeyser puts on more weight his physical play will pick up.

Ericsson does a pretty good job being physical but it would be nice to have 2 physical stay at home guys that battle well like Oduya and Hjalmarsson.
I'm pretty disappointed in Hjamarsson. When I saw him pre-draft in 05 he looked like he was going to be a taller, more physical version of Kronwall. I'm sure it's tough getting much PP time in Chicago, but still, he's not panning out the way I hoped.
Still don't understand how we drafted Lofberg or Mattias Ritola in front of Hjalmarsson

05 was probably Andersson's worst draft.

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07-14-2013, 07:46 PM
  #323
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We don't hit. We don't punish guys in our end or in front of our net. We don't hit their defensemen enough.
So how many nhl teams are tough by this definition

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07-14-2013, 07:49 PM
  #324
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So how many nhl teams are tough by this definition
We're 29th in hitting. So that tells you something

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07-14-2013, 07:54 PM
  #325
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We're 29th in hitting. So that tells you something
And when the Cup Champions were 30th, perhaps it tells us we need to hit less.

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