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Red Homer Redemption

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Old
07-05-2013, 01:39 PM
  #1
sobrien
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Red Homer Redemption

I know it's early, Day 1 of free agency. But seeing all these massive contracts getting thrown around, am I the only one who feels like Holmgren is knocking it out of the park this offseason?

Drop Bryzgalov and Briere and their approx. $12 million in salary cap.

Fill some needs with Lecavalier (skill, FOs, leadership), Streit (PMD, leadership), and Emery (better goalie than given credit for) all without exceeding that $12 million opened up. Keep a guy like Hall who probably won't play every night (depending on Laughton) and he'll help FOs, leadership, and PKing...all for 600k.

Their top two draft picks seem to be strong picks in the right direction, and they haven't made any foolish, debilitating trades that sacrifice youth yet.

Mason and Emery's ability to handle the puck as goalies will REALLY help the defense. This is a major oversight when our team gets critiqued by other, know-it-all fans. They'll be less susceptible to forechecking and turnovers.

Still up in the air, but where it stands now I think this team can be very VERY good. Let's hope they can stay healthy. Don't mind all the posters on the main board, I think Homer's done great so far.

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07-05-2013, 01:43 PM
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How on Earth is Lecavalier a need? We're extremely deep at center with Giroux/Schenn/Couturier/Laughton/numerous 4th liners.

As usual, he did some good mixed with bad. The Emery signing was good, the Giroux extension was necessary albeit not the ideal contract, and the Lecavalier plus Streit contracts were pretty bad.

So, yeah, if I had to give him a grade it'd be like a B- or C+. Lecavalier and Streit wouldn't have been bad signings if they were shorter terms. Streit's a 35+ contract and Lecavalier is a 33 year old signed long-term now. The whole point of getting rid of Briere and Bryzgalov was to rid ourselves of bad contracts then he goes out and makes two slightly better, but still bad ones to replace them with.

EDIT: As for the draft, he didn't do well I'd say. He picked a guy in the first round way higher then he was supposed to go who simply wasn't a top 15 talent and then he drafted a goon soon after. Reminiscent of the Klotz pick really.

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07-05-2013, 01:43 PM
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Dude, he drafted Goulbourne in the third round. Unforgivable.

In all seriousness though, this does look like one of his better offseasons.

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07-05-2013, 01:44 PM
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it sure shut up many fan bases... detroit,toronto,NJ,montreal

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07-05-2013, 01:45 PM
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He got an early start, and it paid off in spades for sure. I don't know if we have addressed the goaltender situation or not. Didn't address the #1 dman we need. However, we DID get a very nice puck moving D-man, a very solid #2 C, and a goalie who looked pretty impressive last year, and here as well before his illness. And all for cheap. Not to mention locking G up long term with a fair deal.

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07-05-2013, 01:45 PM
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I agree with this. Homer has been great so far. Even showing patience with the whole Coburn and Edmonton situation was good. The "old" Homer might have just gave in and gotten less value in return.

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07-05-2013, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
How on Earth is Lecavalier a need? We're extremely deep at center with Giroux/Schenn/Couturier/Laughton/numerous 4th liners.
Faceoffs =need
5 on 5 =need
leadership =need

Let's not forget, we can make a few trades between now and the season opener. And what he paid for what he got is the clearest indicator IMO of how successful he has been so far. He has done great, and while not answering ALL of the flyers problems, he has put them in a much better position to be able to do so, IMO. Nothing to be negative about at all.

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07-05-2013, 01:49 PM
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There are still clowns who base their assessment on draft picks like Goulbourne or supplemental players like Rosehill, ignoring the amount of talent stuffed under the cap. In their world, contracts can always be signed for a million less in cap hit and two less years. Lecavalier and Streit contracts are classic examples. Or, its better to just not have these players and enjoy the cap space.

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07-05-2013, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
How on Earth is Lecavalier a need? We're extremely deep at center with Giroux/Schenn/Couturier/Laughton/numerous 4th liners.

As usual, he did some good mixed with bad. The Emery signing was good, the Giroux extension was necessary albeit not the ideal contract, and the Lecavalier plus Streit contracts were pretty bad.

So, yeah, if I had to give him a grade it'd be like a B- or C+. Lecavalier and Streit wouldn't have been bad signings if they were shorter terms. Streit's a 35+ contract and Lecavalier is a 33 year old signed long-term now. The whole point of getting rid of Briere and Bryzgalov was to rid ourselves of bad contracts then he goes out and makes two slightly better, but still bad ones to replace them with.

EDIT: As for the draft, he didn't do well I'd say. He picked a guy in the first round way higher then he was supposed to go who simply wasn't a top 15 talent and then he drafted a goon soon after. Reminiscent of the Klotz pick really.
Simply looking at Lecavalier's position is stupid. Any of those guys mentioned can play wing, as can Vinny. Was it a primary need? No. Is signing out a probable 65-75 point scoring veteran a bad signing? No way. For his cap hit? Compared to all the other crap being thrown around today, no way. If you wanted Streit and Vinny for less years, then you don't get Streit and Vinny. Fairly simple thought process there. I'm not thrilled about Streit's contract, but I'm liking Vinny's more and more.

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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Dude, he drafted Goulbourne in the third round. Unforgivable.

In all seriousness though, this does look like one of his better offseasons.
That's why I stopped at his top TWO picks

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07-05-2013, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Dude, he drafted Goulbourne in the third round. Unforgivable.

In all seriousness though, this does look like one of his better offseasons.
How is the Goulbourne in the 3rd round unforgiveable ? Believe it or not we did not have a 4th, and there were actually other clubs looking at Tyrell as well.....Sometimes you gotta pull the trigger when you have your shot to fill a future need you see your club having.....Some folks may disagree with that pick, or other picks etc, but saying the pick is " unforgiveable" is a bit over said .Homer has done a commendable job in my view overall.

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07-05-2013, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Stranger Danger View Post
He got an early start, and it paid off in spades for sure. I don't know if we have addressed the goaltender situation or not. Didn't address the #1 dman we need. However, we DID get a very nice puck moving D-man, a very solid #2 C, and a goalie who looked pretty impressive last year, and here as well before his illness. And all for cheap. Not to mention locking G up long term with a fair deal.
Schenn isn't one? If he's not by now or won't be one soon then that says bad things for the organization.

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Forsberg View Post
I agree with this. Homer has been great so far. Even showing patience with the whole Coburn and Edmonton situation was good. The "old" Homer might have just gave in and gotten less value in return.
Old Homer?

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07-05-2013, 01:51 PM
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Anything is better than last year's debacle...

Having said this, Holmgren's work this offseason has to equate to a playoff appearance(s) otherwise he hasn't redeemed himself of anything..

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07-05-2013, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post

EDIT: As for the draft, he didn't do well I'd say. He picked a guy in the first round way higher then he was supposed to go who simply wasn't a top 15 talent and then he drafted a goon soon after. Reminiscent of the Klotz pick really.
You can't realistically say "how he did" in the draft until they reach the NHL, or don't. It's all opinion, and I get that, just seems you are being overtly negative over something that might end up being great. Unless of course you know more than the scouting staff does? They have given me no reason to doubt their ability, so I won't, until they do

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07-05-2013, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Schenn isn't one? If he's not by now or won't be one soon then that says bad things for the organization.
Sure he is, but he can now be a winger, or they can trade one of the glut of centers and something for a true #1 D? It just makes the Flyers as a team that much more flexible, gives them a ton more options IMO. Too much of a good thing isn't bad bro.

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07-05-2013, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtJoseph View Post
How is the Goulbourne in the 3rd round unforgiveable ? Believe it or not we did not have a 4th, and there were actually other clubs looking at Tyrell as well.....Sometimes you gotta pull the trigger when you have your shot to fill a future need you see your club having.....Some folks may disagree with that pick, or other picks etc, but saying the pick is " unforgiveable" is a bit over said .Homer has done a commendable job in my view overall.
I was being sarcastic. I don't necessarily like the Goulbourne pick, but I am not questioning about it (as I pointed out in the Goulbourne thread...I know nothing about him or the other available options, so I am not going to say it was a bad pick because I read a Tweet somewhere that said there was a bette rplayer available).

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07-05-2013, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Schenn isn't one? If he's not by now or won't be one soon then that says bad things for the organization.



Old Homer?
The Homer that traded a 2nd for Meszaros right before Free agency. Or signed Leighton right before free agency. Or a 1st for Eminger. Or Versteeg for 2nd round pick. Again not all the moves were horrible but they showed a lack of patience and direction. Homer recently has done a better job of really trying to get full value and waiting out the market.

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07-05-2013, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Stranger Danger View Post
Faceoffs =need
5 on 5 =need
leadership =need

Let's not forget, we can make a few trades between now and the season opener. And what he paid for what he got is the clearest indicator IMO of how successful he has been so far. He has done great, and while not answering ALL of the flyers problems, he has put them in a much better position to be able to do so, IMO. Nothing to be negative about at all.
Couturier and Schenn are only going to get better at face-offs if they get to practice it. Young centers aren't supposed to be good at face-offs. If we were that desperate for a face-off winner you sign a specialist like Konopka, not Vinny Lecavalier. How on Earth can any of us comment on Lecavalier's leadership? Because he was a captain of a bad Tampa team he's presumed to have some kind of magical leadership ability worth a long-term contract? Give me a break.

Nothing to be negative about? Got to be ****ing kidding me. The Streit contract and our 1st and 3rd round draft picks had no negative qualities?

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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Simply looking at Lecavalier's position is stupid. Any of those guys mentioned can play wing, as can Vinny. Was it a primary need? No. Is signing out a probable 65-75 point scoring veteran a bad signing? No way. For his cap hit? Compared to all the other crap being thrown around today, no way. If you wanted Streit and Vinny for less years, then you don't get Streit and Vinny. Fairly simple thought process there. I'm not thrilled about Streit's contract, but I'm liking Vinny's more and more.
It's not stupid considering we have log-jam at center and have had it for a long time now. Getting rid of Briere gave us the ability to not force natural centers to the wing like Schenn and then he goes and signs a second line center. Why? It's not like we have a contender-worthy roster this upcoming season so why sign players like Lecavalier? It makes no sense.

Some would argue they wouldn't even take Streit at his current contract if given the chance to get rid of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtJoseph View Post
How is the Goulbourne in the 3rd round unforgiveable ? Believe it or not we did not have a 4th, and there were actually other clubs looking at Tyrell as well.....Sometimes you gotta pull the trigger when you have your shot to fill a future need you see your club having.....Some folks may disagree with that pick, or other picks etc, but saying the pick is " unforgiveable" is a bit over said .Homer has done a commendable job in my view overall.
He was using sarcasm dude.

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07-05-2013, 02:00 PM
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I haven't felt this good about an offseason since 2009. The Streit signing still bothers me with length but otherwise this has been a good offseason so far.

Still time for **** to get disastrous though, we'll see.

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07-05-2013, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Stranger Danger View Post
You can't realistically say "how he did" in the draft until they reach the NHL, or don't. It's all opinion, and I get that, just seems you are being overtly negative over something that might end up being great. Unless of course you know more than the scouting staff does? They have given me no reason to doubt their ability, so I won't, until they do
Overtly negative? **** off dude. The first thing I said was that it's good mixed with bad.

We can say how he did based off of what we know about these prospects in the present. Going by your logic we could have drafted a pure goon in the 1st round and you could say "well, we don't know the future".

This is the same scouting staff that took Klotz early and a goon in the third round this season. Just because they're hired by a team and others aren't doesn't mean their opinion is any more credible then any person who knows what they're talking about.

If you really value scouts opinions that much then maybe you should look at his pre-draft rankings that had him going in the late first round. Not 11th overall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger Danger View Post
Sure he is, but he can now be a winger, or they can trade one of the glut of centers and something for a true #1 D? It just makes the Flyers as a team that much more flexible, gives them a ton more options IMO. Too much of a good thing isn't bad bro.
If they're going to trade one of the glut of centers for a D then that means they're trading Couturier and/or Schenn.

It doesn't give them more options in terms of the roster. It constricts the roster by forcing natural centers to the wing.

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07-05-2013, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Couturier and Schenn are only going to get better at face-offs if they get to practice it. Young centers aren't supposed to be good at face-offs. If we were that desperate for a face-off winner you sign a specialist like Konopka, not Vinny Lecavalier. How on Earth can any of us comment on Lecavalier's leadership? Because he was a captain of a bad Tampa team he's presumed to have some kind of magical leadership ability worth a long-term contract? Give me a break.

Nothing to be negative about? Got to be ****ing kidding me. The Streit contract and our 1st and 3rd round draft picks had no negative qualities?



It's not stupid considering we have log-jam at center and have had it for a long time now. Getting rid of Briere gave us the ability to not force natural centers to the wing like Schenn and then he goes and signs a second line center. Why? It's not like we have a contender-worthy roster this upcoming season so why sign players like Lecavalier? It makes no sense.

Some would argue they wouldn't even take Streit at his current contract if given the chance to get rid of it.



He was using sarcasm dude.
They can practice face offs all they want too, The signing of Lecavalier prevents no one from practicing anything, ever. 5 on 5 the flyers were bad scoring, he helps that. Centers can typically play wing or center, so why is it a bad thing if Schenn plays wing? If he sucks at it then it's bad.Good captains are captains for a reason. Good team/hideous team, they have something normal players don't. If it was just a useless thing, they wouldn't be a part of the nhl. You can call it magic if it makes you feel better about it, idc. I could give a crap how much they gave Streit. A puck moving D-man was a dire need, and they got the best one available. I can't be mad if they had to overpay a bit to do it, nor should you.

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07-05-2013, 02:05 PM
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There are still clowns who base their assessment on draft picks like Goulbourne or supplemental players like Rosehill, ignoring the amount of talent stuffed under the cap. In their world, contracts can always be signed for a million less in cap hit and two less years. Lecavalier and Streit contracts are classic examples. Or, its better to just not have these players and enjoy the cap space.
This. We pretty much signed the best forward and best PMD on the FA. We've shored up the keeper situation that at least gives us options with two guys who should be able to do a decent job (there were no sure fire elites out there) and the teams has a good balance of good youth and and veterans. Just worried Homer is gonna see that we still have cap space and be tempted with a silly trade... The only real problem I see at the moment is replacing Timonen.

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07-05-2013, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Overtly negative? **** off dude. The first thing I said was that it's good mixed with bad.

We can say how he did based off of what we know about these prospects in the present. Going by your logic we could have drafted a pure goon in the 1st round and you could say "well, we don't know the future".

This is the same scouting staff that took Klotz early and a goon in the third round this season. Just because they're hired by a team and others aren't doesn't mean their opinion is any more credible then any person who knows what they're talking about.

If you really value scouts opinions that much then maybe you should look at his pre-draft rankings that had him going in the late first round. Not 11th overall.



If they're going to trade one of the glut of centers for a D then that means they're trading Couturier and/or Schenn.

It doesn't give them more options in terms of the roster. It constricts the roster by forcing natural centers to the wing.
No, you started by saying "how on earth is Lecavalier a need?"


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07-05-2013, 02:07 PM
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I'm not a fan of the deal he gave streit but when you look at Mason, Emery, Lecavalier, Streit and their salaries totaling slightly more than Briere and Bryzgalov I'd say that's a solid day at the office. I've been happy from the deadline on with him. Very smart moves. Hell I like the Lecavalier deal more and more when Clarkson and Horton get higher AAV than him. I'm pleased.

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07-05-2013, 02:08 PM
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They can practice face offs all they want too, The signing of Lecavalier prevents no one from practicing anything, ever. 5 on 5 the flyers were bad scoring, he helps that. Centers can typically play wing or center, so why is it a bad thing if Schenn plays wing? If he sucks at it then it's bad.Good captains are captains for a reason. Good team/hideous team, they have something normal players don't. If it was just a useless thing, they wouldn't be a part of the nhl. You can call it magic if it makes you feel better about it, idc. I could give a crap how much they gave Streit. A puck moving D-man was a dire need, and they got the best one available. I can't be mad if they had to overpay a bit to do it, nor should you.
Practice isn't the same as NHL game experience. Your argument about captains also makes no sense whatsoever. So if someone has the C that somehow guarantees that they have leadership experience? So there's never been a bad captain in the history of the NHL? How do you know Lecavalier has leadership ability? Answer that question and I'll leave it be.

The money Streit got isn't the problem, it's the length.

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07-05-2013, 02:08 PM
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No, you started by saying "how on earth is Lecavalier a need?"
Yeah, saying "good mixed with bad" and giving him a B- is clearly overtly negative.


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