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Habs trade Philippe Lefebvre and a 7th to Florida for George Parros

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Old
07-11-2013, 01:26 AM
  #726
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
If you take fighting out of the game, then you'll have the Brashear-McSoreley incident happen on a monthly, if not weekly bases.

International games normally have all skilled players on their team. Also, those tournaments are short. Fewer games. In an 82 game season if you take a cheap shot and you're suspended for 3 games, big whoop ?
Just trying to remember: What happened with McSorley?

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07-11-2013, 01:31 AM
  #727
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I'm sure you're right and these horrendous and inexplicable deaths are random and unimportant. Clearly there is no significance between being an enforcer and dying.
Ever heard of "Correlation does not equal causation"? Sure these four all share the characteristic of having been NHL Enforcers but that is one of many factors that would/could play in this.

"Random and Unimportant"? Where were those words? I would never imply that a human death is unimportant but you are trying to attribute something as the sole cause when at best it is a factor among many. Also, in the case of Probert, a heart attack at 45 is sadly not as uncommon as it should be and when you add possible steroid abuse you are playing with fire.

As for "random", millions of people die every year, many are hockey players, look up Tom Cavanagh (suicide/not an enforcer), Markus Wächter (heart attack), Igor Misko (Cardiac Arrest while driving), Gábor Ocskay (heart attack), and Alexei Cherepanov (myocarditis). All these pro hockey players died roughly within 2 years prior to the four names you gave and none were enforcers. You can't just cherry pick the names that make your case without looking at the whole picture.

As for depression related suicide, in Canada there is an average of almost 3500 suicides a year (higher in the USA), mostly all related to depression, and I'm sure most of them were not NHL enforcers. That's not to mention the fact that both Belak and Rypien had long documented histories with depression leading back to before their pro careers and any chance for brain damage to make its mark.

Is it sad that these four men died? Yes. Did fighting/enforcer culture play a part in their deaths? Probably. Is it assuredly the main cause in their deaths? Definitely not. The point is that there is evidence of brain damage (CTE) associated with the enforcer culture but to blame it for these deaths is being very short sighted.

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Old
07-11-2013, 03:33 PM
  #728
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Old
07-11-2013, 03:42 PM
  #729
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What is this based on? Nothing. What a ridiculous and baseless argument.



Regardless, it doesn't take away at all from the game. Look at the playoffs where fighting is significantly reduced and condensed to smaller isolated incidents, the games are still extremely exciting to watch.

Other physical and contact sports have banned fighting, we don't see anyone dying on the field on a weekly basis. We don't see soccer players attacking other players with their boots, kicking them in the head on a regular basis. We don't see football players ripping off the limbs of opponent players and bashing them with their helmets. These are arguments used for people who have no other justification for fighting, so instead resort to "scare tactics" and "fear mongering" to make their point.
Soccer tries to erupt into fighting. I'm sure you've seen those sissies jumping and trying to kick people with their feet.

Football has players trying to fight, as well.

Fighting creates real passion. Real hatred. There's no real hatred in Basketball.

The best parts about baseball are their bench clearing brawls.

People love fighting and it's been part of the game since it's inception. League would still have the skill to attract people, but what do you have after that ? A lot of chirping you can't hear ?

Fighting adds a key element to hockey that separates it from the rest. If you don't like it, then that's your prerogative.

Staged fights with players who just circle each other, throw a punch and then get 5 minutes are terrible.

The first between players who aren't known for it, or don't do it frequently that erupts into a full on line brawl is a great moment in sports.

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NCAA hockey does not allow fighting. Is this league significantly more violent than the CHL or NHL, as you suggested in your post?
Is it significantly less violent ? No. Pent up anger will come out in one sense, or another.

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Just trying to remember: What happened with McSorley?
Brashear called out the Bruins. McSorely tried to answer, lost and then used his stick to hit Brashear in the side of the head.

McSorely might have even gone after him a second time before the incident.

At world jrs there use to be the yearly Russians with a full cage who'd take runs at everyone and wouldn't have to face the music.

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Old
07-11-2013, 05:11 PM
  #730
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Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
I'm sure you're right and these horrendous and inexplicable deaths are random and unimportant. Clearly there is no significance between being an enforcer and dying.
There is much evidence to prove you wrong.

Terry O'Reilly, age 62.....still alive.
Tiger Williams, age 59.....still alive.
Dave Brown, age 50......still alive.
Dave Schultz, age 63......still alive.
Dave Semenko, age 55....still alive.

Those 4 players you mentioned had other issues that cut short their lives.

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Old
07-11-2013, 05:40 PM
  #731
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Originally Posted by PsychoticHab View Post
Ever heard of "Correlation does not equal causation"? Sure these four all share the characteristic of having been NHL Enforcers but that is one of many factors that would/could play in this.

"Random and Unimportant"? Where were those words? I would never imply that a human death is unimportant but you are trying to attribute something as the sole cause when at best it is a factor among many. Also, in the case of Probert, a heart attack at 45 is sadly not as uncommon as it should be and when you add possible steroid abuse you are playing with fire.

As for "random", millions of people die every year, many are hockey players, look up Tom Cavanagh (suicide/not an enforcer), Markus Wächter (heart attack), Igor Misko (Cardiac Arrest while driving), Gábor Ocskay (heart attack), and Alexei Cherepanov (myocarditis). All these pro hockey players died roughly within 2 years prior to the four names you gave and none were enforcers. You can't just cherry pick the names that make your case without looking at the whole picture.

As for depression related suicide, in Canada there is an average of almost 3500 suicides a year (higher in the USA), mostly all related to depression, and I'm sure most of them were not NHL enforcers. That's not to mention the fact that both Belak and Rypien had long documented histories with depression leading back to before their pro careers and any chance for brain damage to make its mark.

Is it sad that these four men died? Yes. Did fighting/enforcer culture play a part in their deaths? Probably. Is it assuredly the main cause in their deaths? Definitely not. The point is that there is evidence of brain damage (CTE) associated with the enforcer culture but to blame it for these deaths is being very short sighted.
Well said.

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Old
07-11-2013, 09:45 PM
  #732
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Originally Posted by PsychoticHab View Post
Ever heard of "Correlation does not equal causation"? Sure these four all share the characteristic of having been NHL Enforcers but that is one of many factors that would/could play in this.

"Random and Unimportant"? Where were those words? I would never imply that a human death is unimportant but you are trying to attribute something as the sole cause when at best it is a factor among many. Also, in the case of Probert, a heart attack at 45 is sadly not as uncommon as it should be and when you add possible steroid abuse you are playing with fire.

As for "random", millions of people die every year, many are hockey players, look up Tom Cavanagh (suicide/not an enforcer), Markus Wächter (heart attack), Igor Misko (Cardiac Arrest while driving), Gábor Ocskay (heart attack), and Alexei Cherepanov (myocarditis). All these pro hockey players died roughly within 2 years prior to the four names you gave and none were enforcers. You can't just cherry pick the names that make your case without looking at the whole picture.

As for depression related suicide, in Canada there is an average of almost 3500 suicides a year (higher in the USA), mostly all related to depression, and I'm sure most of them were not NHL enforcers. That's not to mention the fact that both Belak and Rypien had long documented histories with depression leading back to before their pro careers and any chance for brain damage to make its mark.

Is it sad that these four men died? Yes. Did fighting/enforcer culture play a part in their deaths? Probably. Is it assuredly the main cause in their deaths? Definitely not. The point is that there is evidence of brain damage (CTE) associated with the enforcer culture but to blame it for these deaths is being very short sighted.
Firstly, I was unnecessarily rude last night and apologize. It is an emotional topic, especially when people are dying.

I actually agree with some of the points you made but I think you are downplaying some of the critical issues. You agree that the 'enforcer' role likely played a part in the physical and psychological turmoil that contributed to their deaths.

I ask you honestly, isn't that enough? At what percentage of contributing to deaths should fighting concern us? To me, that argument is tantamount to saying that only .001% of drunk drivers kill people. So it should be allowed until more drunk drivers kill someone.

Every part of hockey has evolved and changed since it's inception and this continues to this day. One part of that is the obviously growing danger to those who are groomed and encouraged to participate in hockey fights.

A lot of these enforcers are nice guys and don't relish the idea of pounding another player. Many do it simply because that role was carved out for them and they wouldn't be in the NHL otherwise. It's a job, and a damned good one at that.

Now take a guy who is predisposed to some level of depression, and put him in a position where his job is to injure people- something that makes him feel crappy. Not only that, but we have it on pretty good medical authority that continued shots to the head just might be dangerous. One only needs to look at the lifespan and medical histories of NFL linesmen and pro boxers for support.

At what price is our enjoyment of hockey fights to be paid? And I must tell you that I enjoy a good hockey tilt as much as the next guy. But I am not willing to believe there is any number of acceptable casualties

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Old
07-11-2013, 09:48 PM
  #733
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
There is much evidence to prove you wrong.

Terry O'Reilly, age 62.....still alive.
Tiger Williams, age 59.....still alive.
Dave Brown, age 50......still alive.
Dave Schultz, age 63......still alive.
Dave Semenko, age 55....still alive.

Those 4 players you mentioned had other issues that cut short their lives.
Survivability from smallpox does not mean it cannot be fatal. You're smart enough to come up with a better argument.

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Old
07-11-2013, 10:27 PM
  #734
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Like this signing a lot. I think George will resurrect his enforcer role here. Great fit for him. We need a guy like him, whereas he wasn't a good fit in Florida.
Can't wait to see the stache.

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Old
07-11-2013, 11:03 PM
  #735
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Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
Firstly, I was unnecessarily rude last night and apologize. It is an emotional topic, especially when people are dying.

I actually agree with some of the points you made but I think you are downplaying some of the critical issues. You agree that the 'enforcer' role likely played a part in the physical and psychological turmoil that contributed to their deaths.

I ask you honestly, isn't that enough? At what percentage of contributing to deaths should fighting concern us? To me, that argument is tantamount to saying that only .001% of drunk drivers kill people. So it should be allowed until more drunk drivers kill someone.

Every part of hockey has evolved and changed since it's inception and this continues to this day. One part of that is the obviously growing danger to those who are groomed and encouraged to participate in hockey fights.

A lot of these enforcers are nice guys and don't relish the idea of pounding another player. Many do it simply because that role was carved out for them and they wouldn't be in the NHL otherwise. It's a job, and a damned good one at that.

Now take a guy who is predisposed to some level of depression, and put him in a position where his job is to injure people- something that makes him feel crappy. Not only that, but we have it on pretty good medical authority that continued shots to the head just might be dangerous. One only needs to look at the lifespan and medical histories of NFL linesmen and pro boxers for support.

At what price is our enjoyment of hockey fights to be paid? And I must tell you that I enjoy a good hockey tilt as much as the next guy. But I am not willing to believe there is any number of acceptable casualties
I'll start by saying that I don't disagree directly with the points that you make and in fact if you go back a few posts, I state that I would like to see "staged" fights and "maulings" removed from the game as they are an unnecessary risk for the people involved to be taking.

Now, as for your points themselves, I believe that they revolve around the philosophical question of "whether or not a person has the right to make the choice for someone else regarding their safety if the other person does not wish it". Essentially, does a person have the right to make their own decision, potentially putting their own health and life in danger? Or should it be removed from their control entirely to ensure that they cannot make, what the ruling party sees, as the wrong decision? I would hate to have a debate about "free will" but in essence it comes down to "Are you willing to allow someone to make their own mistake or do you wish to infringe upon any possible right they have to choose as it is, for a lack of a better term, their life to live?"

Now, one advantage players have these days that they did not have in the past is that they are aware of the consequences that are associated with head injuries and are better able to make a decision for themselves. Democracy in its original form in Greece stated that every one had the right to vote into a decision once they were properly educated on the subject and had the information they needed to form an educated opinion.

As for your comparison, I would rather liken this debate to a debate about smoking. Nearly everyone, if not everyone, knows that smoking is bad for you and yet some still continue to do so. Should we have the right to make smoking illegal in order to protect current smokers from themselves? Or should the smokers have the right to do what they choose as long as they are not killing any other willing persons (other smokers or other willing combatants)? New laws have gone into place to greatly lessen the chance of secondhand smoke inhalation to make it safer for non-smokers but should laws be allowed to go further to stop smoking all together? The "not killing other persons" would be the reason I would rather compare it to smoking rather than drunk driving as drunk driving affects many potential lives (impossible to predict an outcome when someone is drunk and driving) around one act as well as is illegal to do (essentially murder) unlike smoking and fighting in hockey.(At least as of right now)

You also mention "a damn good living", and this is where "Risk/Reward" comes in play where a person must decide if the reward outweighs the risk. Most enforcers are not brimming with other talents and find an opportunity to provide a good financially secure future for their family and must then decide if this financial safety is worth the possible injuries. This would be the same as when someone who wants to become a firefighter, a soldier, or a policeman (3 dangerous jobs) has to look at themselves and decide if the good they can do (family, community, ect.) outweighs the danger they are putting their lives in.

You say that I down play certain parts of the debate but I would say that, although this is a very emotional debate as lives are at stake, the only way to look at the two sides as unbiased as possible is to sit back and remove, as much as possible, the emotions from the equation and simply look at the facts.

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Old
07-11-2013, 11:07 PM
  #736
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Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
Survivability from smallpox does not mean it cannot be fatal. You're smart enough to come up with a better argument.
Should we list all the professional boxers in history that didn't kill themselves because of head injuries?

Please, players like Boogaard and Rypien clearly had other issues.

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Old
07-11-2013, 11:19 PM
  #737
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
Should we list all the professional boxers in history that didn't kill themselves because of head injuries?

Please, players like Boogaard and Rypien clearly had other issues.
Don't be naive. Shots to the head = brain damage.

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07-11-2013, 11:26 PM
  #738
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Ha ha awesome. Man, George has a pretty wicked shot.

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Old
07-11-2013, 11:26 PM
  #739
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Don't be naive. Shots to the head = brain damage.
Simple solution then. Ban all contact sports. Save people from themselves. Gallagher got a concussion from a hit, not fighting.

Either that or require professional athletes who VOLUNTARILY decide to play a contact sport like hockey to be completely wrapped in Bubble Wrap from head to toe.

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07-11-2013, 11:33 PM
  #740
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Believe hockey fighting is more dangerous than fightsports such as boxing, kickboxing, MMA etc. But as long as fighting is still condoned by the NHL the Habs ought to have guys who can fight. Agree with Tony M, for a variety of reasons would prefer an enforcer in his 20s to a guy who's 33, and would prefer a decent hockey player who can fight well to a poor hockey player who can fight very well. But wtf Parros is a Hab hope he works out. Go Habs Go.

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07-11-2013, 11:36 PM
  #741
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I'll start by saying that I don't disagree directly with the points that you make and in fact if you go back a few posts, I state that I would like to see "staged" fights and "maulings" removed from the game as they are an unnecessary risk for the people involved to be taking.

Now, as for your points themselves, I believe that they revolve around the philosophical question of "whether or not a person has the right to make the choice for someone else regarding their safety if the other person does not wish it". Essentially, does a person have the right to make their own decision, potentially putting their own health and life in danger? Or should it be removed from their control entirely to ensure that they cannot make, what the ruling party sees, as the wrong decision? I would hate to have a debate about "free will" but in essence it comes down to "Are you willing to allow someone to make their own mistake or do you wish to infringe upon any possible right they have to choose as it is, for a lack of a better term, their life to live?"

Now, one advantage players have these days that they did not have in the past is that they are aware of the consequences that are associated with head injuries and are better able to make a decision for themselves. Democracy in its original form in Greece stated that every one had the right to vote into a decision once they were properly educated on the subject and had the information they needed to form an educated opinion.

As for your comparison, I would rather liken this debate to a debate about smoking. Nearly everyone, if not everyone, knows that smoking is bad for you and yet some still continue to do so. Should we have the right to make smoking illegal in order to protect current smokers from themselves? Or should the smokers have the right to do what they choose as long as they are not killing any other willing persons (other smokers or other willing combatants)? New laws have gone into place to greatly lessen the chance of secondhand smoke inhalation to make it safer for non-smokers but should laws be allowed to go further to stop smoking all together? The "not killing other persons" would be the reason I would rather compare it to smoking rather than drunk driving as drunk driving affects many potential lives (impossible to predict an outcome when someone is drunk and driving) around one act as well as is illegal to do (essentially murder) unlike smoking and fighting in hockey.(At least as of right now)

You also mention "a damn good living", and this is where "Risk/Reward" comes in play where a person must decide if the reward outweighs the risk. Most enforcers are not brimming with other talents and find an opportunity to provide a good financially secure future for their family and must then decide if this financial safety is worth the possible injuries. This would be the same as when someone who wants to become a firefighter, a soldier, or a policeman (3 dangerous jobs) has to look at themselves and decide if the good they can do (family, community, ect.) outweighs the danger they are putting their lives in.

You say that I down play certain parts of the debate but I would say that, although this is a very emotional debate as lives are at stake, the only way to look at the two sides as unbiased as possible is to sit back and remove, as much as possible, the emotions from the equation and simply look at the facts.
I understand where you're going but free will doesn't really apply when you are getting directives from your employer.

Is there anyone on this board who thinks that the new penalties regarding checking and head shots are wrong?

They are in place to reduce the ever-growing issue of head injuries and concussions. So we should rightly ban blows to the head by checks but not punches?

Sports and their rulebook evolve over time. Hockey is the same. If fighting can't be made safer it needs to go.

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07-11-2013, 11:43 PM
  #742
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Simple solution then. Ban all contact sports. Save people from themselves. Gallagher got a concussion from a hit, not fighting.

Either that or require professional athletes who VOLUNTARILY decide to play a contact sport like hockey to be completely wrapped in Bubble Wrap from head to toe.
You are such a drama queen. Concussions will certainly happen in contact sports. The idea is to minimize them. Fighting is not integral to hockey. It is a peripheral adjunct to hockey.

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07-11-2013, 11:44 PM
  #743
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Believe hockey fighting is more dangerous than fightsports such as boxing, kickboxing, MMA etc. But as long as fighting is still condoned by the NHL the Habs ought to have guys who can fight. Agree with Tony M, for a variety of reasons would prefer an enforcer in his 20s to a guy who's 33, and would prefer a decent hockey player who can fight well to a poor hockey player who can fight very well. But wtf Parros is a Hab hope he works out. Go Habs Go.
how is hockey fighting more dangerous than proffesional hitters? No one punches as hard as a boxer or kicks as hard as Mirco on the ice, the punches are not as brutal ?

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07-11-2013, 11:53 PM
  #744
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You are such a drama queen. Concussions will certainly happen in contact sports. The idea is to minimize them. Fighting is not integral to hockey. It is a peripheral adjunct to hockey.
No, I am not being the queen here........

Fighting is not integral to hockey.....................in your mind and in your irrelevant opinion.

Just keep the remote in your hand and switch the channel when a fight takes place. Either that or cover your eyes with your hand.

Meanwhile, I will enjoy watching Parros doing his job.

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07-11-2013, 11:58 PM
  #745
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
No, I am not being the queen here........

Fighting is not integral to hockey.....................in your mind and in your irrelevant opinion.

Just keep the remote in your hand and switch the channel when a fight takes place. Either that or cover your eyes with your hand.

Meanwhile, I will enjoy watching Parros doing his job.
You two stop bickering and just drop the gloves already.

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Old
07-12-2013, 12:09 AM
  #746
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SouthernHab = an american = USA = country with people who love violence = sports with violence = hockey = hockey fights

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07-12-2013, 12:16 AM
  #747
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
No, I am not being the queen here........

Fighting is not integral to hockey.....................in your mind and in your irrelevant opinion.

Just keep the remote in your hand and switch the channel when a fight takes place. Either that or cover your eyes with your hand.

Meanwhile, I will enjoy watching Parros doing his job.
I'm impressed to hear that your opinions are the most relevant ones.

Perhaps you will also share your wisdom on how shortened life spans of fighters in hockey and other sports who suffer multiple head traumas to get you a few minutes of splooginess.

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07-12-2013, 12:25 AM
  #748
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SouthernHab = an american = USA = country with people who love violence = sports with violence = hockey = hockey fights
You need better bait.

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07-12-2013, 12:30 AM
  #749
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I'm impressed to hear that your opinions are the most relevant ones.

Perhaps you will also share your wisdom on how shortened life spans of fighters in hockey and other sports who suffer multiple head traumas to get you a few minutes of splooginess.
My opinion is as irrelevant as yours since we are doing nothing more than posting on a message board.

Hockey still allows fighting. Your stance is at odds with reality.

Do yourself a favor. Research clinically major depression. When you do, you will maybe understand that clinical depression shortens a lot of people's lives, regardless of what their occupation is and regardless of whether they have ever had a fight in their entire life.

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07-12-2013, 02:21 AM
  #750
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Don't be naive. Shots to the head = brain damage.
and not everyone with brain damage kills themselves, I know people who have been addicted to drugs and who have killed themselves neither has played a single game of hockey, unfortunately for you, your views are overly simplistic

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