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Montreal trades for Parros ---get Thornton some help already

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Old
07-23-2013, 08:21 PM
  #476
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
If fighting doesn't equate to toughness how can you honestly say the Bruins are by far tougher then the Kings or Blackhawks?
Who said fighting doesn't equal toughness? Boston does fight a lot more than those teams. Not sure what you're getting at, how do the Kings or Blackhawks support Boston needing an extra goon?

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07-23-2013, 08:22 PM
  #477
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And if we are using the hit stat as a measure lets make note that the Bruins hits per game were higher than any season in the last 4 years.

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07-23-2013, 08:26 PM
  #478
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Lets all try and get along here, eh? We're all, even if we disagree on this issue, Bruins fans at the end of the day --if a Habs fan jumps on to the thread, feel free to jump him.

Anyway, the Jets signed Peluso to a 2 year extension yesterday so I'm not sure who I will set my sights on next.

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07-23-2013, 08:26 PM
  #479
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Originally Posted by Bruwinz37 View Post
And if we are using the hit stat as a measure lets make note that the Bruins hits per game were higher than any season in the last 4 years.
Didn't realize that. Interesting.

That stat is pretty unreliable though... I saw more than plenty of games where teams were just generally more physical than the Bruins. And in more than one of those games, the B's refused to respond to their opposition's aggression.

I think we're too quick to hang our hats on what the media has coined this team, as they do so primarily to label the B's as a dirty club.

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07-23-2013, 08:28 PM
  #480
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Originally Posted by bruinsfan46 View Post
Who said fighting doesn't equal toughness? Boston does fight a lot more than those teams. Not sure what you're getting at, how do the Kings or Blackhawks support Boston needing an extra goon?
Blackhawks had 10 guys who fought, the Bruins 9...Kings 7.

The "extra goon" would be acquired for the sole purpose of giving Dangles a blow during the 82 game season, since he has 100 fights in his 6 year Bruins career....about 20 per season when you break down GP...

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07-23-2013, 08:29 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by Colt.45Orr View Post
Lets all try and get along here, eh? We're all, even if we disagree on this issue, Bruins fans at the end of the day --if a Habs fan jumps on to the thread, feel free to jump him.

Anyway, the Jets signed Peluso to a 2 year extension yesterday so I'm not sure who I will set my sights on next.
For being useless these GM's can't wait to seem to lock up their toughness, 'eh?

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07-23-2013, 08:30 PM
  #482
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Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
Didn't realize that. Interesting.

That stat is pretty unreliable though... I saw more than plenty of games where teams were just generally more physical than the Bruins. And in more than one of those games, the B's refused to respond to their opposition's aggression.

I think we're too quick to hang our hats on what the media has coined this team, as they do so primarily to label the B's as a dirty club.
MMB, with all due respect, while we may not be the big bad bruins of old I think sometimes we watch games with too much emotion and it feels that we arent responding or being aggressive enough.

Honestly, I just dont think that we got "bullied" and I think we regularly answer the bell when needed.

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07-23-2013, 08:40 PM
  #483
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
For being useless these GM's can't wait to seem to lock up their toughness, 'eh?

And they have less team toughness with Peluso than the B's.

600k per thereabouts. Can't blame them...they only had 13m to the cap.

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07-23-2013, 08:43 PM
  #484
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Blackhawks had 10 guys who fought, the Bruins 9...Kings 7.

The "extra goon" would be acquired for the sole purpose of giving Dangles a blow during the 82 game season, since he has 100 fights in his 6 year Bruins career....about 20 per season when you break down GP...
Bruins had 11 guys if you include playoffs, Bergeron and Kelly both scrapped in the playoffs. Not sure that I get the point you were making with the number of guys fighting, wouldn't that indicate you want guys like Krejci fighting and that would somehow make the Bruins tougher? LA and Chicago aren't your friends in the exta goon department, both were near the bottom in total fights and neither employed two heavyweights. They had one between them in Bollig. The Blackhawks traded Carcillo to the Kings and it sounds like he may be a Clifford replacement who the Kings may be trading away because they're having signing problems (I would totally dig the Bruins being in on Clifford if he is available).

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07-23-2013, 09:24 PM
  #485
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Originally Posted by Bruwinz37 View Post
MMB, with all due respect, while we may not be the big bad bruins of old I think sometimes we watch games with too much emotion and it feels that we arent responding or being aggressive enough.

Honestly, I just dont think that we got "bullied" and I think we regularly answer the bell when needed.
I think you're partly right.

But I also think last season was a step in the wrong direction for this team's identity. I don't know if it's permanent - but I do remember several points last season that had me stunned. Why would we not answer the bell? I thought (and said so as much on these boards) that it was a tactical move based on the shortened season. That Julien and company were playing it a little on the passive side to preserve health and energy for a playoff run.

That may have been the case and (I believe) we should be okay. But it may have actually been a sign of things to come as well... I don't know. All I can say is that I saw a distinct difference in this team's willingness (or "grit" or "sandpaper" or "moxie" or whatever you want to call it) in our shortened year. I don't know if getting Shawn Thornton some backup is going to change all of that (I suspect NOT), but I do think it would help. And I do think it's important.

One thing I would ask those detractors who claim that the Bruins are tougher on the top half of their roster, therefore they need not be concerned about the bottom half of their oppositions'? In order to be the toughest, you need to be the toughest from the top through the bottom of your lineup. If you don't want Chara throwing down with Parros (or whatever) then the B's are not the team you think they are.

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07-23-2013, 09:34 PM
  #486
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I think you're partly right.

But I also think last season was a step in the wrong direction for this team's identity. I don't know if it's permanent - but I do remember several points last season that had me stunned. Why would we not answer the bell? I thought (and said so as much on these boards) that it was a tactical move based on the shortened season. That Julien and company were playing it a little on the passive side to preserve health and energy for a playoff run.

That may have been the case and (I believe) we should be okay. But it may have actually been a sign of things to come as well... I don't know. All I can say is that I saw a distinct difference in this team's willingness (or "grit" or "sandpaper" or "moxie" or whatever you want to call it) in our shortened year. I don't know if getting Shawn Thornton some backup is going to change all of that (I suspect NOT), but I do think it would help. And I do think it's important.

One thing I would ask those detractors who claim that the Bruins are tougher on the top half of their roster, therefore they need not be concerned about the bottom half of their oppositions'? In order to be the toughest, you need to be the toughest from the top through the bottom of your lineup. If you don't want Chara throwing down with Parros (or whatever) then the B's are not the team you think they are.

Isnt it really JUST Scott though?

I mean Parros....really? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvLsqnFEJ8A

Orr is tough for sure...but...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2HkI2HGPsU

Thornton does his job, the rest step up when needed....and usually for good reason. If we need a one game maniac to come in when things get out of hand you bring up Robbins or budding legend Camara.

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07-24-2013, 07:58 AM
  #487
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Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
I think you're partly right.

But I also think last season was a step in the wrong direction for this team's identity. I don't know if it's permanent - but I do remember several points last season that had me stunned. Why would we not answer the bell? I thought (and said so as much on these boards) that it was a tactical move based on the shortened season. That Julien and company were playing it a little on the passive side to preserve health and energy for a playoff run.

That may have been the case and (I believe) we should be okay. But it may have actually been a sign of things to come as well... I don't know. All I can say is that I saw a distinct difference in this team's willingness (or "grit" or "sandpaper" or "moxie" or whatever you want to call it) in our shortened year. I don't know if getting Shawn Thornton some backup is going to change all of that (I suspect NOT), but I do think it would help. And I do think it's important.

One thing I would ask those detractors who claim that the Bruins are tougher on the top half of their roster, therefore they need not be concerned about the bottom half of their oppositions'? In order to be the toughest, you need to be the toughest from the top through the bottom of your lineup. If you don't want Chara throwing down with Parros (or whatever) then the B's are not the team you think they are.
if your two bigger tough guys aren't fighting, does anyone also want to see a (how old?) iginla fighting?

if Chara isn't fighting, and Lucic isn't fighting, and Thornton has more then enough to handle with the Orrs, Parros, Kassians, etc etc, its going to rub off.

everyone kept talking in the past about being team tough and how the team plays better for it, but you have Chara and Lucic getting challenged regularly and skating away,Thornton doing the obligatory with people way outside his weight class, and the rest of the 'middle weight' level pests challenging people. that's going to have the same (opposite) effect as when the bruins were beating up on these teams.

so sure, the top six is tough, but not going to be fighting much. fine with that. they will all take hits to make plays. great with that too. no need to tinker with that.

the bottom six is Campbell and Thorton.

Defensemen are taught not to leave the red line during a scrum or you lose the face off in the offensive zone.

and lots of people want to see Krug, Bart and Hamilton in the lineup next year.

the team I.D. is supposed to that of one to be tough to play against, one that win or lose the other team knows they were in a game, one that other teams don't want to come to the fleet to play. that wasn't them this past season.

I don't see why they cant win games, and still be physically intimidating. I don't see why they cant go looking for a 4th line heavy weight that can play a regular shift, or one who's young that can learn to play a regular a shift without being a liability.

are they guaranteed to find one? nope. even if they did, is it a guarantee that could get him? nope.

but with the moves in the size and toughness department the teams in there div have been making (mainly to counter the b's) the status quo is changing.

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07-24-2013, 11:14 AM
  #488
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Isnt it really JUST Scott though?

I mean Parros....really? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvLsqnFEJ8A

Orr is tough for sure...but...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2HkI2HGPsU

Thornton does his job, the rest step up when needed....and usually for good reason. If we need a one game maniac to come in when things get out of hand you bring up Robbins or budding legend Camara.
If Robins is a feasible answer, then I'm all game. I just assumed that he wasn't (which probably isn't fair of me). Part of the solution.

Another part, would be accepting that Chara and Lucic SHOULD step up and throw down if a team is taking liberties. No whining about the "trade-off". Even the occasional lost close game where having one/either/both of those guys on the ice instead of the penalty box MAY have made the difference... I don't mind losing a game once in a while during the regular season, as long as it means that other teams know they can't get "away" with crap. (Not to mention that the difference between a win and a loss in those instances would be hypothetical, whereas the maintenance of the team's identity would be a definite.)

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07-24-2013, 11:54 AM
  #489
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I know this wasn't for me, but I'll answer anyway.

(*before I get to my main point I will say that it is undeniable that Kaleta -while he has always been a ******- has never been as fearless as he was this year; even Miller had to call him out after almost ending Richard's career. The reason he was so rattled in the Leafs game was because he thought he was untouchable now from the other team's heavies).

Anyway, I'm not under the impression that, in 2013, guys like Kaleta live in fear of an enforcer. In the 80s and early 90s --absolutely. But now they know, and have grown up in, the system that coddles their style of play and punishes relation to the dangerous crap they pull. That doesn't mean that you stand by and eat it from them either. Guys like Lapierre and Burrows absolutely went into their shell in 2011 when the Bruins went after them physically.


That is the beauty of a Lucic -- no other forward in the league has the size--skill--snarl--slugging package that he has. You could say the same thing about Chara on D.

This is why the Bruins are so effective when they are on THEIR game and THEIR game is being physical. This is why Bruins fans continually rejoice seeing these 2 guys beat up on other skilled guys. It's fair because it is our #1 Dman and #1 LWer.

But other teams know this --that they don't have big, skilled nasty brutes to neutralize a Lucic or Chara-- so they do the next best thing that they can do and dress the toughest line-up that they possibly can whenever they play the Bruins. That usually means dressing the enforcer that has sat the last couple of games. Usually they will promote their biggest, meanest Dman up to play against Lucic (for Toronto it was Fraser, for the Pens it was Engelland as the two most recent examples --of course there is no real fighting in the playoffs).

This explains why Lucic is fighting huge, nasty 3rd pairing Dmen like Carkner or Erskine. A talent mismatch, no?

Well, it happens because that is the other team's plan (usually effective) to put out a 230pd nasty guy to get in his face and try and get him to focus on the other part (fighting) of his game.

If Lucic decides to ramp up his game physically then other team's fighters come looking for him. Last year Lucic, after a long dormant stretch, threw a hit on the pesky Turris and then was backed into a corner by Neil. People that understand hockey *soo well here don't understand why he took that fight.

*my kids are tearing the house up so I won't be able to finish up my point properly, but I'll shorten it to saying that other teams constantly beef up to play the Big, Bad Bruins. What have we done in the last 2 years to counter that --to stay on top of it-- to maintain the physical edge we once had over our division?

We are not a skilled team like the Wings, we are a physical team... and yet there are multiple teams in out division now that dress a 4th line that could beat the crap out of our 4th line...

are we scared of them? No, because...

.... where do we make up that difference?

Our #1 D and #1 LWer... dragging them into the gutter and away from winning those skill match-ups we used to enjoy
.
I didn't get to finish up this post properly the other day (2 year old son is... nevermind) but I'll give it a shot now:

1) The Bruins, as the team is made up, are not soft
2) We are not scared (except of fighting Scott)
3) We no longer enjoy physical domination over our division
4) Most of our toughness comes from Chara and Lucic
5) This is a problem because...

4-5 years ago, Chara was fighting the Laraques, Koci's, Brashears of the league and our identity was set alongside a prime Thornton and up-and-coming Lucic.

Now, Chara and Thornton are old, by hockey standards of course, and Lucic is too valuable to fight guys from his past like Ivanans and other slugs.

Prust--White--Parros
Fraser--_______--Orr
Kaleta---Brave-Steve Ott----Scott
Neil----Smith---Kassian

Any of those combos are much tougher than our forward group (outside of Lucic) and bring a much nastier fighting/hitting/forecheck game. I'm not saying they are better, but they are much more physical. Again, where do we make up the difference?

Chara and Lucic.

How do people not understand that this is a problem? Maybe take a look at capgeek? We're expecting the 36 year old Thornton to keep things under wraps in this division? No, these teams --with these lines-- want to engage Lucic and Chara into fights. Kaleta has already suckered Lucic into a fight. I know many Rangers fans (who watched Lucic punish their D for 5 games) are looking forward to Dylan "The Undertaker" McIlrath being ready to match up Vs. Lucic... it is the way things will go for the rest of Lucic's career and it is physically exhausting on him. Next Pens game I want to see someone go after Engelland... but nobody will unless it is Lucic himself.

Again, I believe a big, nasty 4th liner that can actually play (and throw a bleepin bodycheck) would be effective in going after all the new meat in the division and would let Lucic and Chara go back to doing what they do best in punishing the oppositions softer players like a meat tenderizer.

Robins interest me because he can throw some hits and attract attention

rather than just responding to occasional transgressions, it would be nice to see a guy that sets the tone.

I've kinda gone down some rabbit trails, my apologies. I wonder if Luke Gazdic is worth a look. 6-4, 240pd LWer, GREAT locker-room guy, great scrapper, 13 years younger than Thornton and, most importantly, can play a little I think (20+pts in AHL in 2011-12).


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07-24-2013, 12:00 PM
  #490
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If Robins is a feasible answer, then I'm all game. I just assumed that he wasn't (which probably isn't fair of me). Part of the solution.

Another part, would be accepting that Chara and Lucic SHOULD step up and throw down if a team is taking liberties. No whining about the "trade-off". Even the occasional lost close game where having one/either/both of those guys on the ice instead of the penalty box MAY have made the difference... I don't mind losing a game once in a while during the regular season, as long as it means that other teams know they can't get "away" with crap. (Not to mention that the difference between a win and a loss in those instances would be hypothetical, whereas the maintenance of the team's identity would be a definite.)
Bobby Robins has a ton of heart and I like him a lot but he can't handle being an NHL heavyweight. He loses too often and when we talk about limited talent fighters he is the personification of that.

After looking at the remaining UFA's there are not many choices out there for minor league fighters. Teams seem to be locking there guys up that can fight, I wonder why?

Also agree 100% with the bolded quote, a win against Buffalo in mid December isn't as important as establishing the fact you will not be pushed around by another team or allow your stars to be cheap shotted by the likes of Kaleta and Ott. If they are in that much of a fight to make the playoffs that those two points matter at the end of the season, they have much bigger issues than a 13th forward that can fight.

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07-24-2013, 03:34 PM
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Bobby Robins has a ton of heart and I like him a lot but he can't handle being an NHL heavyweight. He loses too often and when we talk about limited talent fighters he is the personification of that.

After looking at the remaining UFA's there are not many choices out there for minor league fighters. Teams seem to be locking there guys up that can fight, I wonder why?

Also agree 100% with the bolded quote, a win against Buffalo in mid December isn't as important as establishing the fact you will not be pushed around by another team or allow your stars to be cheap shotted by the likes of Kaleta and Ott. If they are in that much of a fight to make the playoffs that those two points matter at the end of the season, they have much bigger issues than a 13th forward that can fight.
And it would be just that one game in December right? Once teams figured out you could get the Bruins off their game so easily just to keep an identity that exists in our fans mind only?

And those minor league fighters, you're insinuating that teams are locking them up because they're massively valuable? That's why they're getting big FA deals? Being selected high in the draft? Bringing in huge returns at the deadline?

Also, how many games do we even have this year against Montreal Ottawa, Buffalo, and Toronto? 20? We played nearly that many against those teams LAST year in a condensed schedule. Aren't there less division games now, and almost as many divisional opponents (TB, FLA, DET) where extra heavyweights won't be a priority at all (even if they would ever be...which they aren't), and extra games against the West where tempers tend (Ott/Dallas excepting) not to be flared?

If Thornton can't handle 20 games, the plan shouldn't be to augment him, it should be to replace him altogether.

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10-15-2013, 12:03 PM
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Want to bump this because even though I am a Thornton fan and it's still early in the season. Of his 3 fights so far he has seemed to lose a step.

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10-15-2013, 01:45 PM
  #493
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Want to bump this because even though I am a Thornton fan and it's still early in the season. Of his 3 fights so far he has seemed to lose a step.
He's fought every single heavyweight the Bruins have played, every single one without hesitation. The only games he hasn't fought was the fighter-less Red Wings. Yes they were three ****** draws but Labrie pulled him down before either guy got going, he's supposed to be too scared of a guy like Bordeleau to even engage him according to picture painted of Shawn Thornton in the offseason on this board, of course he fought defensive against somebody that size and the Boll fight was right at the end of a shift, fighting is tiring as ****, with rare exceptions like Lucic-Neil last year fights at the end of a shift tend to suck. Three bad fights is three bad fights, most NHL fights aren't very eventful. Has he lost a bit of a step from three years ago? Probably, but he is still very willing and still more than capable enough. Thornton is getting any help anytime soon, there is literally no cap space to do it (the money spent on a 14th forward designated face puncher would come off of the cap next year because of the Bruins using the bonus cushion). Besides Bobby Robins can be recalled anytime if needed and it appears Tyler Randell is becoming a heavyweight himself.

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10-15-2013, 01:56 PM
  #494
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Want to bump this because even though I am a Thornton fan and it's still early in the season. Of his 3 fights so far he has seemed to lose a step.
Last thing we need is another enforcer. Personally I don't even think there is room for Thornton once Soderberg gets back. Caron and Smith are playing too well and Thornton isn't on the same level.

Detroit seems to do just fine without a goon. Not to mentioned we have Lucic, McQuaid and Chara who can all throw down.

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12-03-2013, 03:50 PM
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9 straight games with heavyweights, hopefully thorty has the gloves dusted off. Can't wait to see it

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12-03-2013, 08:20 PM
  #496
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Thornton has not done a good job so far this year.

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12-03-2013, 08:22 PM
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Thornton has not done a good job so far this year.
Eh he has been ok

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12-03-2013, 08:40 PM
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Eh he has been ok
Don't like the fact that McQuaid had to fight Scott. Scott challenged Thornton...Sugar declined minutes later Eriksson is laying on the ice.

Not the only time. He should take on the other teams heavies before they challenge other players.

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12-03-2013, 09:19 PM
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And people said Colt, Caballo, Pie, myself and others were "crazy" for wanting a new enforcer.

Team should get Devane or Peluso during the off season. Especially since this is probably Thornton's last season AND probably McQuaids.

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