HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

What Would You Give-up For Niittymaki?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-14-2005, 02:45 PM
  #51
salzy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Windsor
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,048
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
So having great success in the AHL > Having a pretty good year as an NHL backup?
You think so? I'm not sure. But they certainly aren't the same, which is what I ACTUALLY SAID. Which makes the comparison apples-oranges, which is what I ACTUALLY SAID. And more importantly, NIITTY is 24 NOT 27. You conveniently omitted that part.

salzy is offline  
Old
06-14-2005, 02:58 PM
  #52
dolfanar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Like a midget at a urinal, I'm going to have to stay on my toes.
Posts: 2,948
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
You think so? I'm not sure. But they certainly aren't the same, which is what I ACTUALLY SAID. Which makes the comparison apples-oranges, which is what I ACTUALLY SAID. And more importantly, NIITTY is 24 NOT 27. You conveniently omitted that part.
And again, comparing a player who has actually played a full year at the NHL level to a player who hasn't which means that Garon would be a far surer bet than nittymaki simply on his success already in the NHL...

The deal ended up being Garon and the 95th overall pick for Bonk and Huet. Garon at 24 was dominating the AHL as well. It's not a big deal really. and he still netted little more than Huet on his own (Bonk went to LA for the 77th overall).

Antero would likely go for a 3rd rounder in the previous CBA environement. In the new NHL, he MIGHT be worth a late second rounder, but even that would depend on finding a team that is dealing with a depleted goalie situation.

dolfanar is offline  
Old
06-14-2005, 02:58 PM
  #53
mooseOAK*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 42,437
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
Wow, and here I thought Gary Roberts and Trevor Kidd were BOTH established NHL players when they left Calgary.
I guess that some people don't understand what a "straight up trade" refers to either.

mooseOAK* is offline  
Old
06-14-2005, 03:07 PM
  #54
salzy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Windsor
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,048
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
And again, comparing a player who has actually played a full year at the NHL level to a player who hasn't which means that Garon would be a far surer bet than nittymaki simply on his success already in the NHL...
That's the logic that makes Matt Stajan a surer bet than Sidney Crosby. The fact is, Garon was a solid backup and might be a solid starter but we can be fairly sure he won't be a star. Remains to be seen with Niitty, which is what makes him appealing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
The deal ended up being Garon and the 95th overall pick for Bonk and Huet. Garon at 24 was dominating the AHL as well. It's not a big deal really. and he still netted little more than Huet on his own (Bonk went to LA for the 77th overall).
lmao. I love these "player x was traded for draft pick y, so his value is clearly draft pick y from now until the end of time" statements. Yes, Ottawa gave Bonk away because they weren't going to sign him. He was done in Ottawa, so they took what they could get. His value to Montreal was higher - they needed a big center and they got him. Garon was traded for Bonk (a former all star) and Huet. Montreal threw in a 3rd rounder. Montreal got quite a bit for Garon. Period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
Antero would likely go for a 3rd rounder in the previous CBA environement. In the new NHL, he MIGHT be worth a late second rounder, but even that would depend on finding a team that is dealing with a depleted goalie situation.
Again, if you think that's so, I won't mind looking at comparables from the past that you have come up with to back it up.

salzy is offline  
Old
06-14-2005, 03:10 PM
  #55
salzy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Windsor
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,048
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
I guess that some people don't understand what a "straight up trade" refers to either.
Sorry, nobody told me the semantics party was starting early this afternoon.

salzy is offline  
Old
06-14-2005, 03:16 PM
  #56
Leaf Army
Registered User
 
Leaf Army's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Leaf Nation
Posts: 8,466
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
More apples and oranges there. First of all, Turek was closing in on 30 years old when he was traded to St. Louis and Dallas had Turco ready to step in. Secondly, Marc Denis was also traded in an effort to avoid losing him (or Aebischer) for nothing in the expansion draft.
I don't care one bit why those players were traded. The fact is they were traded and that's what the teams got for them. About what Philly would get for Niitymaki.

Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
Most importantly, NONE of the guys that have been mentioned as apples and oranges comparisons were coming off seasons and playoffs like Niity just had.
No of course not. They were in the NHL.

Actually I thought I was being pretty generous by comparing Niitymaki to those guys in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
Gerber is over 30 years old (and would have been before he saw the ice again regardless of the lockout).
What does it matter if he's 30 years old. The fact is that Gerber is a proven NHLer and a lot of people think he could be a starter in this league immediately and he still went for a 3rd round pick and Malec.

What GM in their right mind is going to give up the farm for Niittymaki at a time when better goalies are being traded at a much lower price?

Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
Garon for Bonk and Huet is a lot more than Garon for a 2nd rounder, without getting into the fact that Garon is 27 - not 24 and again, was not coming off a season and playoffs like Niitty just had.
Let me break the trade down for you again. Montreal traded Garon and a 3rd for Bonk and Huet. Bonk had just been acquired for a 3rd himself.

And of course Garon didn't have the same season as Niittymaki. He was too busy putting up similar numbers in the NHL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
My guess is they won't be trading him anyway.
First thing you've got right. If I were Philly I wouldn't trade him either if all I was going to get was a 2nd round pick. Better off keeping him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
And in spite of all this, nobody has been able to provide a reasonable example to compare to yet.
Not true. I've provided plenty of good examples. Still waiting for yours.

Leaf Army is offline  
Old
06-14-2005, 03:16 PM
  #57
mooseOAK*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 42,437
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
Sorry, nobody told me the semantics party was starting early this afternoon.
It hasn't.

mooseOAK* is offline  
Old
06-14-2005, 03:23 PM
  #58
dolfanar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Like a midget at a urinal, I'm going to have to stay on my toes.
Posts: 2,948
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
That's the logic that makes Matt Stajan a surer bet than Sidney Crosby.
You might have had a semblance of a point... if Stajan had done at 16 and 17 what Crosby has done. He didn't, so you don't...

dolfanar is offline  
Old
06-14-2005, 03:38 PM
  #59
salzy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Windsor
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,048
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
I don't care one bit why those players were traded. The fact is they were traded and that's what the teams got for them. About what Philly would get for Niitymaki.
You should care, because it's precisely why Niitty would have more value. On top of the new CBA placing a new premium on talented, CHEAP, YOUNG players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
No of course not. They were in the NHL.
Okay, just so I understand, all players IN the NHL have more value than all players NOT in the NHL. I'll keep that in mind when I watch the draft lottery. Hopefully Philly wins it so we can swing that Crosby for Cory Cross trade I've been thinking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
Actually I thought I was being pretty generous by comparing Niitymaki to those guys in the first place.
You weren't. You want to be generous - compare him to Lehtenen or Fleury.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
What does it matter if he's 30 years old.
Do you know what the hf stands for in "hfboards"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
What GM in their right mind is going to give up the farm for Niittymaki at a time when better goalies are being traded at a much lower price?
I never said he was worth "the farm" (whatever the farm is worth), but what 'better' goalies are being traded, and who has decided they are 'better'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
Let me break the trade down for you again. Montreal traded Garon and a 3rd for Bonk and Huet. Bonk had just been acquired for a 3rd himself.
I've already explained the circumstances surrounding the Bonk trade. Not going to do it again, just go look for it yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
And of course Garon didn't have the same season as Niittymaki. He was too busy putting up similar numbers in the NHL.
Really? What NHL championship did Garon win? It's no secret that backup numbers are to be taken with a grain of salt - they usually get their starts against the doormats of the league. And you keep ignoring the most important fact - Niitty is 24, not 27. Compare an apple to an apple, not an apple to an orange.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
First thing you've got right. If I were Philly I wouldn't trade him either if all I was going to get was a 2nd round pick. Better off keeping him.
Damn, I was hoping to have a conversation with a Leaf fan who didn't insist on being a condescending *****, but I guess I was hoping for too much. To be honest, I've been right about everything so far. But keep trying. Practice makes perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
Not true. I've provided plenty of good examples. Still waiting for yours.
And I've explained why all your examples are not applicable. What would you like me to provide examples of? 24 year old Calder Cup and Calder Cup MVP winning goalies who have been traded the following summer? I'm sorry, I just don't believe there's that much data on the subject. But check with Mooseoak, he might be able to point you in the right direction.

salzy is offline  
Old
06-14-2005, 03:40 PM
  #60
salzy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Windsor
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,048
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
You might have had a semblance of a point... if Stajan had done at 16 and 17 what Crosby has done. He didn't, so you don't...
No, by the OP's logic, it matters little what EITHER did at a prior level, or what age they are. All that matters has already made the NHL, while the other has yet to do so.

Ridiculous logic, to be sure, but you'll have to take that up with him.

salzy is offline  
Old
06-14-2005, 03:53 PM
  #61
Leaf Army
Registered User
 
Leaf Army's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Leaf Nation
Posts: 8,466
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
Okay, just so I understand, all players IN the NHL have more value than all players NOT in the NHL. I'll keep that in mind when I watch the draft lottery. Hopefully Philly wins it so we can swing that Crosby for Cory Cross trade I've been thinking about.
This has already been explained to you.

Cross for Crosby is ridiculous because everyone knows that Crosby will be a much better player than Cross.

However, it's certainly not a foregone conclusion that Niittymaki will be better than Denis, Giguere, Gerber or even Garon. They're all in the same class. Cross and Crosby certainly are not.

Get it now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
You weren't. You want to be generous - compare him to Lehtenen or Fleury.
That's generous alright. I'm glad you said it and not me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
Do you know what the hf stands for in "hfboards"?
Okay so just so I understand. A player's value is always directly proportional to their age. Got it.

Now I can swing that Antropov for Iginla trade I've been thinking about. Antropov is clearly worth more because he's 3 years younger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
I never said he was worth "the farm" (whatever the farm is worth), but what 'better' goalies are being traded, and who has decided they are 'better'?
No you haven't said he's worth the farm.

In fact, you haven't stepped up and said anything. Tell me, what you think he's worth. You'd rather just argue with everyone else.

Give me a team that would be interested in him and tell me what you think they'd give up for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
Really? What NHL championship did Garon win?
It's already been pointed out to you that winning a championship doesn't mean everything. Tellqvist has won two Swedish championships and came within an OT goal of wining the World Championships and I don't think he has much value at all.

The bottom line is that Niittymaki and Garon are roughly the same calibre. Youngish goalies who should at least be solid backups but have a shot to be starters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
And I've explained why all your examples are not applicable. What would you like me to provide examples of? 24 year old Calder Cup and Calder Cup MVP winning goalies who have been traded the following summer? I'm sorry, I just don't believe there's that much data on the subject. But check with Mooseoak, he might be able to point you in the right direction.
Tell me then. What team might be interested in him and what do you think they'd give up?

Leaf Army is offline  
Old
06-14-2005, 04:06 PM
  #62
Yertle The Turtle
Registered User
 
Yertle The Turtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Millville, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 1,225
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Yertle The Turtle Send a message via MSN to Yertle The Turtle Send a message via Yahoo to Yertle The Turtle
ok... from a flyers fans point of view. I think Nittymaki could fetch the flyers a player like Iginla maybe Brad Richards??























Or not Like people have said Nitty has alot more value to the flyers then we could get in a trade.

Yertle The Turtle is offline  
Old
06-14-2005, 04:07 PM
  #63
dolfanar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Like a midget at a urinal, I'm going to have to stay on my toes.
Posts: 2,948
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
Really? What NHL championship did Garon win? It's no secret that backup numbers are to be taken with a grain of salt - they usually get their starts against the doormats of the league. And you keep ignoring the most important fact - Niitty is 24, not 27. Compare an apple to an apple, not an apple to an orange.

Antero just turned 25. Garon is 27. 2 and ahlf years differance.

Antero in 148 AHL games has a 2.19 GAA and a .918 SV%

Garon in 246 games has a 2.68 GAA and a .915 SV%.

BTW I love how you discount Backup NHL stats but somehow consider AHL results to count for something on the trade market. Sorry, NHL backup work is more representative than AHL starter work. If the reverse were true Marc Lamothe would be one of the hottest prospects in hockey right now.

As for the "Value" of Antero, he isn't even the consensus top goalie prospect in the AHL. Ryan Miller (25), Joey MacDonald (24), and Brian Finley (23) are around the same age, and on lesser teams managed to put up comparable numbers. If any team were offering more than a late 2nd, then certainly one of those three would be offered. Lehtonen as a 21 year old had just as good of a regular season and playoff (though his team came up short). Lehtonen would be light years ahead of Antero value wise.

In fact I doubt you could name 5 teams who don't have atleast 2 goalies available (either established NHLers or upcoming prospects) who wouldn't be interchangeable with Antero. Is he a solid prospect? No doubt about it. Would he net more than a late 2nd round pick? Not on your life.

dolfanar is offline  
Old
06-14-2005, 04:14 PM
  #64
salzy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Windsor
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,048
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
This has already been explained to you.

Cross for Crosby is ridiculous because everyone knows that Crosby will be a much better player than Cross.

However, it's certainly not a foregone conclusion that Niittymaki will be better than Denis, Giguere, Gerber or even Garon. They're all in the same class. Cross and Crosby certainly are not.

Get it now?
This has already been explained to you. Declaring a player more valuable because he has played in the NHL already while a YOUNGER player has not is pure folly.

Get it now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
That's generous alright. I'm glad you said it and not me.
Yes, I said it. It's generous, but it's a more reasonable comparison. Actually, according to some posters in this thread, they're all nearly equal since they all have very little NHL experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
Okay so just so I understand. A player's value is always directly proportional to their age. Got it.
Nope, but a player's age is always a factor in the player's value. See if you can wrap your mind around that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
Now I can swing that Antropov for Iginla trade I've been thinking about. Antropov is clearly worth more because he's 3 years younger.
More apples and oranges. Is Iginla a journeyman? Is Antropov on the rise? Has Antropov stayed relatively healthy? Is Antropov coming off a Calder Cup winning and Calder Cup MVP winning season? You can get back to me on all those points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
No you haven't said he's worth the farm.

In fact, you haven't stepped up and said anything. Tell me, what you think he's worth. You'd rather just argue with everyone else.

Give me a team that would be interested in him and tell me what you think they'd give up for him.
Right, I never said that. So why on earth would you imply that I did? I know he's not the Herschel Walker of the NHL. But there is a big gap between THAT and a 2nd round pick. At his age and after the season and playoffs he just completed, HE HAS VALUE. Any team without a legitimate young goalie or young goalie prospect would be interested. Detroit and Toronto, for example. Philly likely wouldn't trade him to a conference rival, so Toronto wouldn't be in the picture. Detroit would give up more than a 2nd rounder for him, no doubt. Whether that mean a 1st rounder or a comparable prospect from another position, or a combination of picks and prospects - who knows. But on the open market - when there is no fear of losing him in an expansion draft or a waiver draft - and with a looming CBA that is going to place a premium on young, cheap, talented players, he would have value. Guaranteed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
It's already been pointed out to you that winning a championship doesn't mean everything. Tellqvist has won two Swedish championships and came within an OT goal of wining the World Championships and I don't think he has much value at all.
Becaue of the lockout, the calibre of play in the AHL this year was higher than it has ever been. That doesn't guarantee NHL success, but it gives an indication that he probably has a bright future. Has Tellqvist given that indication? I don't think he has. That's the difference between the two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
The bottom line is that Niittymaki and Garon are roughly the same calibre. Youngish goalies who should at least be solid backups but have a shot to be starters.
Fair enough - but Garon garnered MORE than a 2nd rounder for the Habs. So if they are equal, wouldn't Niitty garner more too?

salzy is offline  
Old
06-14-2005, 04:23 PM
  #65
salzy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Windsor
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,048
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
Antero just turned 25. Garon is 27. 2 and ahlf years differance.
I don't want to get into a nitpicky argument like this, but since you got it started, Antero is 24 (like I said).

Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
Antero in 148 AHL games has a 2.19 GAA and a .918 SV%

Garon in 246 games has a 2.68 GAA and a .915 SV%.
Okay, so Antero's career GAA is MILES better and career save % is slightly better? What's your point? Moreover, Garon is 27 and has yet to play more than 20 NHL games in a season. He's quickly moving from prospect to 'better hurry up and make it'. Niitty's improved each year since coming to NA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
BTW I love how you discount Backup NHL stats but somehow consider AHL results to count for something on the trade market. Sorry, NHL backup work is more representative than AHL starter work. If the reverse were true Marc Lamothe would be one of the hottest prospects in hockey right now.
A 31 year old goalie would not be considered a hot prospect regardless of his numbers. He wouldn't be considered a prospect at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
As for the "Value" of Antero, he isn't even the consensus top goalie prospect in the AHL. Ryan Miller (25), Joey MacDonald (24), and Brian Finley (23) are around the same age, and on lesser teams managed to put up comparable numbers.
Okay, and which of those guys backed it up with the kind of playoff Niittymaki had? Oh, that's right - none.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
In fact I doubt you could name 5 teams who don't have atleast 2 goalies available (either established NHLers or upcoming prospects) who wouldn't be interchangeable with Antero. Is he a solid prospect? No doubt about it. Would he net more than a late 2nd round pick? Not on your life.
Still waiting for a reasonable comparison to prove that - instead of just opinion.

salzy is offline  
Old
06-14-2005, 04:26 PM
  #66
dolfanar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Like a midget at a urinal, I'm going to have to stay on my toes.
Posts: 2,948
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
Fair enough - but Garon garnered MORE than a 2nd rounder for the Habs. So if they are equal, wouldn't Niitty garner more too?
Garon got the Habs a mid 3rd rounder and Cristobal Huet. If you are arguing that Niitymaki can get he Flyers a mid 3rd rounder (or an overpriced 2nd/3rd line center) and an ok career backup goalie then you are on to something.

Here is what you could have gotten from the Oilers around the same time for instance: Peter Nedved (who makes less than Bonk on 04-05 salary by 400k) and Jussi Markkanen.

Not bad, but not great.

dolfanar is offline  
Old
06-14-2005, 04:32 PM
  #67
salzy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Windsor
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,048
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
Garon got the Habs a mid 3rd rounder and Cristobal Huet. If you are arguing that Niitymaki can get he Flyers a mid 3rd rounder (or an overpriced 2nd/3rd line center) and an ok career backup goalie then you are on to something.
He got the Habs Bonk and Huet. Huet may be an ok career backup, but Garon might still fit that description too! Jeez, Boucher got the Flyers Handzus and a throw in career backup - Robert Esche. Whoops - turns out Esche was better than people thought. Actually, even better than Boucher!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
Here is what you could have gotten from the Oilers around the same time for instance: Peter Nedved (who makes less than Bonk on 04-05 salary by 400k) and Jussi Markkanen.

Not bad, but not great.
There you go - not bad, not great. But all of the above are better than a 2nd round pick. And hey, if you take Markkanen and all of the other goalies people have tried to apples-oranges compare Niitty too, you know what you get?

Jussi Fruit!

salzy is offline  
Old
06-14-2005, 04:36 PM
  #68
dolfanar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Like a midget at a urinal, I'm going to have to stay on my toes.
Posts: 2,948
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
I don't want to get into a nitpicky argument like this, but since you got it started, Antero is 24 (like I said)..
25 as of June 18th. Want to get nitpicky?


Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
Okay, so Antero's career GAA is MILES better and career save % is slightly better? What's your point? Moreover, Garon is 27 and has yet to play more than 20 NHL games in a season. He's quickly moving from prospect to 'better hurry up and make it'. Niitty's improved each year since coming to NA.
Garon was 26 when he was traded to Antero's 25 now. Nice try, I appreciate the effort to fudge the numbers, but you are fooling no one. Garon managed to maintain that SV% facing a HELL of alot more shots than the sheltered Phantoms goalie. PLUS he has 43 games of NHL experience, 2.49 GAA and .914 SV%... the equivalent of a whole season's worth. Sorry, Garon's numbers demonstrate a proven NHL netminder.


Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
A 31 year old goalie would not be considered a hot prospect regardless of his numbers. He wouldn't be considered a prospect at all.
Nope, but if AHL stats mattered more than NHL stats, which is THE WHOLE crux of your Garon vs Niitymaki argument, then Lamothe would be ont he fast track to the NHL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
Okay, and which of those guys backed it up with the kind of playoff Niittymaki had? Oh, that's right - none.
None of them were fortunate enough to have a stacked AHL team playing in front of them... I'll give you that much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
Still waiting for a reasonable comparison to prove that - instead of just opinion.
Already gave you 4. And there are atleast another 4 just like them in the AHL. Still waiting for you to point to a single team where Niitymaki would be a significant enough upgrade to warrant anything more than a late 2nd rounder/early 3rd... ofcourse I'm quite certain you won't...

dolfanar is offline  
Old
06-14-2005, 04:38 PM
  #69
dolfanar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Like a midget at a urinal, I'm going to have to stay on my toes.
Posts: 2,948
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
He got the Habs Bonk and Huet. Huet may be an ok career backup, but Garon might still fit that description too! Jeez, Boucher got the Flyers Handzus and a throw in career backup - Robert Esche. Whoops - turns out Esche was better than people thought. Actually, even better than Boucher!



There you go - not bad, not great. But all of the above are better than a 2nd round pick. And hey, if you take Markkanen and all of the other goalies people have tried to apples-oranges compare Niitty too, you know what you get?

Jussi Fruit!
Pardon... so now Huet and Bonk are worth a 1st rounder("better than a 2nd round pick")? And you are Again forgetting the 3rd rounder the Habs threw in ofcourse...

Damn, I hope Gainey gets on the phone post haste, looks like Sydney is coming home...

dolfanar is offline  
Old
06-14-2005, 04:45 PM
  #70
norrisnick
Registered User
 
norrisnick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 16,283
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
Detroit would give up more than a 2nd rounder for him, no doubt. Whether that mean a 1st rounder or a comparable prospect from another position, or a combination of picks and prospects - who knows.
Thanks for thinking of us, but we are anxiously awaiting Jimmy Howard to finish up at Maine (he has hinted at leaving early, you never know). That or Liv or MacDonald. As for trading to go straight to the big club we have Legace to hold down the fort until our younger guys step in (and if he didn't work out I'd rather get a cheap vet to do so rather than have all goalies in our system be 25 or younger).

2nd rounders going into the new CBA are worth a hell of a lot more than they used to (particularly if the NHL is going to slowly up the draft age to 19 or higher). Speaking as a Wing fan I'd think about the 2nd (provided it's isn't for this upcoming draft at least) but definitely no more than that unless you'd be interested in a second tier prospect/roster filler to go along with it.

norrisnick is online now  
Old
06-14-2005, 04:48 PM
  #71
salzy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Windsor
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,048
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
25 as of June 18th. Want to get nitpicky?
Right. And as today is the 14th, I was technically right. Not sure why you wanted to nitpick like that, but there you have it. If you want, we can continue the discussion next Sunday, if it's that important to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
Garon was 26 when he was traded to Antero's 25 now. Nice try, I appreciate the effort to fudge the numbers, but you are fooling no one.
Garon is 27. Antero is 24. No fudging or fooling necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
Garon managed to maintain that SV% facing a HELL of alot more shots than the sheltered Phantoms goalie. PLUS he has 43 games of NHL experience, 2.49 GAA and .914 SV%... the equivalent of a whole season's worth. Sorry, Garon's numbers demonstrate a proven NHL netminder.
And Antero's numbers and age demonstrate a potential NHL star netminder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
Nope, but if AHL stats mattered more than NHL stats, which is THE WHOLE crux of your Garon vs Niitymaki argument, then Lamothe would be ont he fast track to the NHL.
No, he wouldn't. HE'S THIRTY ONE YEARS OLD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
None of them were fortunate enough to have a stacked AHL team playing in front of them... I'll give you that much.
I think you mean none of their teams were lucky enough to have the Calder Cup MVP playing behind them. I'll give me that much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
Already gave you 4. And there are atleast another 4 just like them in the AHL.
And I already shot holes in all 4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
Still waiting for you to point to a single team where Niitymaki would be a significant enough upgrade to warrant anything more than a late 2nd rounder/early 3rd... ofcourse I'm quite certain you won't...
Actually, I already did. Feel free to read the thread. I mean, as long as your logged in anyway, you might as well. It'll save me typing it again.

salzy is offline  
Old
06-14-2005, 04:51 PM
  #72
dolfanar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Like a midget at a urinal, I'm going to have to stay on my toes.
Posts: 2,948
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
Thanks for thinking of us, but we are anxiously awaiting Jimmy Howard to finish up at Maine (he has hinted at leaving early, you never know). That or Liv or MacDonald. As for trading to go straight to the big club we have Legace to hold down the fort until our younger guys step in (and if he didn't work out I'd rather get a cheap vet to do so rather than have all goalies in our system be 25 or younger).

2nd rounders going into the new CBA are worth a hell of a lot more than they used to (particularly if the NHL is going to slowly up the draft age to 19 or higher). Speaking as a Wing fan I'd think about the 2nd (provided it's isn't for this upcoming draft at least) but definitely no more than that unless you'd be interested in a second tier prospect/roster filler to go along with it.
Just continuing the Garon trade comparison for Salzy... equivalent deal would be Niitymaki and a 3rd to Detroit for Ray Whitney and our friend Marc Lamothe.

dolfanar is offline  
Old
06-14-2005, 04:52 PM
  #73
salzy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Windsor
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,048
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
Pardon... so now Huet and Bonk are worth a 1st rounder("better than a 2nd round pick")? And you are Again forgetting the 3rd rounder the Habs threw in ofcourse...
Yes, Bonk and Huet are worth better than a 2nd rounder. That could be a lot of things - a 2nd rounder and a lesser prospect, a 2nd rounder and a role player, a 2nd rounder and 6th rounder, a 2nd rounder and another 2nd rounder. You get the idea. Perhaps even a first rounder to the right team. Ottawa traded a first rounder for Vaclav Varada, so it's not like the value of a 1st rounder necessarily equals the hope diamond.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
Damn, I hope Gainey gets on the phone post haste, looks like Sydney is coming home...
Yes, because as we all know, ANYONE with a pick ANYWHERE in the first round gets a Crosby. There's 30 of them, don't you know?

salzy is offline  
Old
06-14-2005, 04:55 PM
  #74
norrisnick
Registered User
 
norrisnick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 16,283
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
Just continuing the Garon trade comparison for Salzy... equivalent deal would be Niitymaki and a 3rd to Detroit for Ray Whitney and our friend Marc Lamothe.
DEAL! Though we'd have to talk to Lada in the RSL to see if Marc would go for it (technically he's UFA for the NHL). I don't really care what's coming our way, I just want to wave bye-bye to Ray.

norrisnick is online now  
Old
06-14-2005, 04:57 PM
  #75
Leaf Army
Registered User
 
Leaf Army's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Leaf Nation
Posts: 8,466
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
Right, I never said that. So why on earth would you imply that I did? I know he's not the Herschel Walker of the NHL. But there is a big gap between THAT and a 2nd round pick. At his age and after the season and playoffs he just completed, HE HAS VALUE. Any team without a legitimate young goalie or young goalie prospect would be interested. Detroit and Toronto, for example. Philly likely wouldn't trade him to a conference rival, so Toronto wouldn't be in the picture. Detroit would give up more than a 2nd rounder for him, no doubt. Whether that mean a 1st rounder or a comparable prospect from another position, or a combination of picks and prospects - who knows. But on the open market - when there is no fear of losing him in an expansion draft or a waiver draft - and with a looming CBA that is going to place a premium on young, cheap, talented players, he would have value. Guaranteed.
Well now wer're just talking in circles.

But you still haven't given me a list of teams that would be interested in Niittymaki and what they would give up.

You mentioned Toronto. Well let's anaylze this. Obviously Philly won't be trading anyone to Toronto, but we'll ignore that for now.

Could Toronto use a goalie prospect like Niittymaki? Sure. But let's face reality, we've got Belfour for at least next season so he certainly wouldn't be a starter for us. So I wouldn't be willing to give up more than a 2nd rounder for a backup goalie.

Now sure, Niitymaki could potentially be a future starter. But I wouldn't willing to invest much in a guy that might be a starter two or three years down the road. Especially with the UFA age coming down, there could be a lot good goalies on the market by then.

I'm not going to give up a top prospect or pick for Niittymaki only to have a chance to sign a better UFA goalie one year from now.

Plus, if I'm the Leafs, before I pay a king's ransom for Niittymaki, I'd call Atlanta about Nurminen, San Jose about Toskala, the Rangers about Lundqvist, Buffalo about one of their three etc.... All further driving down Niittymaki's value.

You'll find this scenario applies to most teams around the league. They're already set in goal and they're not going to give up much for a guy who may or may not be a starter one or two years from now.

That's why his value isn't too much and the Flyers are better off keeping him. It has nothing to do with what kind of season he had. It has more to do with circumstances.

Leaf Army is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:36 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.