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Now that the roster is set, lets inventory F1 F2 F3s

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Old
07-06-2013, 04:05 AM
  #76
sweHockeypunk21
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I wouldn't mind seeing lines like this:

Marleau-Thornton-Torres
Hertl-Couture-Burns
Wingles-Pavelski-Kennedy
Sheppard-Desjardins-Burish
Havlat

Vlasic-Demers
Boyle-Irwin
Braun-Stuart
Hannan

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07-06-2013, 07:59 AM
  #77
hohosaregood
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I think we could put Sheppard on the 3rd line. He's always been more of a playmaker/F2 in his whole career extending back to junior. It might work out well. Kennedy as F1, Sheppard as F2, Pavs as F3.

I don't really think the 4th line really needs any kind of set up in that regard. If they were all F1 forecheckers then that would probably be fine because you want them to be able to cause some disturbance in the other team's play hoping for a turnover and trying to score from that. They generally aren't skilled enough to outplay other team's lines so they should be as opportunistic as possible and that works when generating turnovers.

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07-06-2013, 10:58 AM
  #78
Vaasa
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I was thinking Sheppard should be moved up as well, but I would want to give him a shot on the 2nd line. Something like this:

Torres (F1) -Thornton (F2) - Burns (F3)
Marleau (F1) -Couture (F3) - Sheppard (F2)
Kennedy (F1) - Pavelski (F3) - Hertl (F2)
Wingels (F3) - Desjardins (F2) - Burish (F1)

I don't remember if Burish can play LW, if so, swap him with Wingels who seems better as a RW. Or possibly even try Wingels back a C (his natural position IIRR) and move Desi to the LW.

I don't want to put Hertl in the top-6 if we can avoid it so he gets lesser competition. It also gives Pavs a more effective line-mate (hopefully) so that the 3rd line is better. But if necessary, swap Hertl and Sheppard. But I think Marleau and Couture will suffer the least with Sheppard while Pavs with Kennedy and Sheppard is going to struggle IMO.

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07-06-2013, 11:02 AM
  #79
Gilligans Island
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
I was thinking Sheppard should be moved up as well, but I would want to give him a shot on the 2nd line. Something like this:

Torres (F1) -Thornton (F2) - Burns (F3)
Marleau (F1) -Couture (F3) - Sheppard (F2)
Kennedy (F1) - Pavelski (F3) - Hertl (F2)
Wingels (F3) - Desjardins (F2) - Burish (F1)

I don't remember if Burish can play LW, if so, swap him with Wingels who seems better as a RW. Or possibly even try Wingels back a C (his natural position IIRR) and move Desi to the LW.

I don't want to put Hertl in the top-6 if we can avoid it so he gets lesser competition. It also gives Pavs a more effective line-mate (hopefully) so that the 3rd line is better. But if necessary, swap Hertl and Sheppard. But I think Marleau and Couture will suffer the least with Sheppard while Pavs with Kennedy and Sheppard is going to struggle IMO.
If Sheppard takes a step forward, I can see this being an effective line up.

I see Grabo still out there and I wish DW would just go get him. We could use some serious competition among our bottom/tweener forwards. One can dream...

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07-06-2013, 11:24 AM
  #80
Vaasa
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Originally Posted by Gilligans Island View Post
If Sheppard takes a step forward, I can see this being an effective line up.

I see Grabo still out there and I wish DW would just go get him. We could use some serious competition among our bottom/tweener forwards. One can dream...
Grabo would be my dream acquisition. Even over Stahlberg. But unless he decides to sign a dirt-cheap deal for 1-year in hopes of a playoff run and a better contract next year (with the Sharks or someone else), I don't see it happening. There are still too many teams with too many holes and too much cap space.

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07-06-2013, 11:57 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
Are we the only board that discusses F1/2/3's? I've never seen it outside of here.
TM was the one who brought it to my attention in one of his interviews. I paid attention to that interview and subsequent references.
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Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
Yea Easy has too much influence around here. I cringe every time I see someone say "by eye test." Sounds so snobby (not coming from Easy but from the board's "gurus").
The phrase is a way of differentiating between stats and opinion. For those of us who frequently use stats, it is a way of separating our subjectivity and objectivity.

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07-06-2013, 12:37 PM
  #82
do0glas
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
You don't have to win races all the time to be effective but if you're losing a vast majority of races and 50-50 pucks, you're not an effective F1. Wingels has not shown to be a good F1 in my opinion. If their strategy as F1's is to separate the man from the puck rather than get in after the puck, they're playing from behind imo.



Burns was not really playing like anything that we define as F1, 2, or 3 because he was just everywhere all the time. Galiardi wasn't winning a lot of races but he was winning more than the other depth guys. His puck play is poor which was the drawback but with Burns crashing hard as well at times or Thornton supporting, that was covered up to a large extent. Relying on Burns to be an F1 is probably not a good idea because even though he wins races, he's all over the place to where there is an obvious lack of focus on a role and a lot of it was his speed creating some luck for himself rather than anticipating or being where he is supposed to be. Burns as an F3 lets him utilize his talents the best for what he's being complimented by.
youre basically just saying TJ was being held above water by those two. and honestly, wingels is just as fast or faster than TJ. Wingels can keep his head up while skating too and not get crushed trying to get in on the forecheck. the amount of difference in F1 is probably negligable but you keep overrating TJs ability at it, imo.

honestly it depends on how you setup, burns could be similar to marleau as an F1, since he was playing outside of the system it shows that he is pretty versatile as a forward.

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07-06-2013, 12:49 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
If I am right here are the lines, assuming Hertl will be F3 and Havlat is injured

Hertl Thornton Burns

Marleau Couture Torres

Wingels Pavelski Kennedy

Sheppard Desi Burish
This would be my first pick for a starting day forward lineup. It would give Hertl some good experience. Pretty fast second line, and a scoring third line. Hopefully Wingels can make the next step, or maybe put Sheppard on the third line.

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07-06-2013, 12:52 PM
  #84
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i like the idea of sheppard as F2 on the third line. Is he consistent enough? can he mesh with a kennedy/torres type player to take advantage of a loose puck. I never really got the impression that he reads the game very well, but there were times he made burish look like he could score, so who knows. im willing to try it though

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07-06-2013, 01:06 PM
  #85
Kitten Mittons
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
The phrase is a way of differentiating between stats and opinion. For those of us who frequently use stats, it is a way of separating our subjectivity and objectivity.
Oh I know what it is.

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07-06-2013, 01:55 PM
  #86
TheJuxtaposer
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I wouldn't mind Sheppard in the top-9, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised to see him start the season there. DW seems pretty bullish on Sheppard, and I think he'll be given a serious opportunity on a scoring line, whether it's Couture's or Pavelski's line.

I also wouldn't mind Torres with Thornton and Burns. Torres and Burns would wreck havoc on the forecheck and both can finish well too.

Sheppard or Hertl would be my first choices on Couture's RW, working under the assumption that we don't make a signing. I wouldn't mind Peter Mueller at all, honestly he's a very similar player to Sheppard right now except much better.

I'd prefer Burns as an F3, even though he's a very good F1, just because I'd rather utilize Burns' awesome wrister. Torres can handle most of the forechecking.

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07-06-2013, 02:19 PM
  #87
Pinkfloyd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
youre basically just saying TJ was being held above water by those two. and honestly, wingels is just as fast or faster than TJ. Wingels can keep his head up while skating too and not get crushed trying to get in on the forecheck. the amount of difference in F1 is probably negligable but you keep overrating TJs ability at it, imo.

honestly it depends on how you setup, burns could be similar to marleau as an F1, since he was playing outside of the system it shows that he is pretty versatile as a forward.
No, Wingels is not as fast or faster than TJ. Galiardi is noticeably quicker and faster than Wingels. Wingels is quite stronger on his skates than Galiardi but he is not faster and it isn't really close.

As for Burns, his style of play isn't necessarily showing versatility. It's showing, to me at least, a lack of structure but because he's so quick the negatives are not shown yet and that's probably because teams haven't adjusted to him yet. When they do, that kind of play can get turned around on him pretty quick. He's going to have to learn the structure and discipline in how he plays a specific role because getting out of position as a forward will cost you if you do it enough times down the road.

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07-06-2013, 02:20 PM
  #88
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marleau-jumbo-burns

hertl-cooter-jagr

torres-pavs-kennedy

shep-burish-wingels

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07-06-2013, 02:20 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilligans Island View Post
If Sheppard takes a step forward, I can see this being an effective line up.

I see Grabo still out there and I wish DW would just go get him. We could use some serious competition among our bottom/tweener forwards. One can dream...
I agree totally on Grabo. That is the one, truly one pick up I am in hope we make. Can get for a decent contract as well and huge upside. The guy is in definite need of a change of scenery from T.O.

Let me know if I am incorrect but, with Havlat being on LTIR, are we not able to go above cap on his salary amount, or something of the sort?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I wouldn't mind Sheppard in the top-9, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised to see him start the season there. DW seems pretty bullish on Sheppard, and I think he'll be given a serious opportunity on a scoring line, whether it's Couture's or Pavelski's line.

I also wouldn't mind Torres with Thornton and Burns. Torres and Burns would wreck havoc on the forecheck and both can finish well too.


Sheppard or Hertl would be my first choices on Couture's RW, working under the assumption that we don't make a signing. I wouldn't mind Peter Mueller at all, honestly he's a very similar player to Sheppard right now except much better.

I'd prefer Burns as an F3, even though he's a very good F1, just because I'd rather utilize Burns' awesome wrister. Torres can handle most of the forechecking.
On Sheppard, being we are stuck with Burish, he is my pick for Torres spot on the 3rd (with Torres being up on big Joe's line of course) I would also like to see Torres up with big Joe and Burns. Totally agree with your view on this.

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Old
07-06-2013, 02:31 PM
  #90
do0glas
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
No, Wingels is not as fast or faster than TJ. Galiardi is noticeably quicker and faster than Wingels. Wingels is quite stronger on his skates than Galiardi but he is not faster and it isn't really close.

As for Burns, his style of play isn't necessarily showing versatility. It's showing, to me at least, a lack of structure but because he's so quick the negatives are not shown yet and that's probably because teams haven't adjusted to him yet. When they do, that kind of play can get turned around on him pretty quick. He's going to have to learn the structure and discipline in how he plays a specific role because getting out of position as a forward will cost you if you do it enough times down the road.
its nowhere near as far apart as youre saying. saying its not even close is pretty far off the mark. seeing that burish is our fastest bottom sixer, its not like its even that big of a deal. wingels being stronger on his skates and a better hitter outweighs whatever quickness galiardi has over him. just an opinion of mine at least. i always felt galiardi was closer to how mitchell played on the forecheck than anything, and thats not a compliment.

not saying burns should play like that. im saying that he played F1F2F3 with reasonable efficiency in his time at forward he wasnt really found wanting whenever he found himself in an F1 or F3 position. most likely training to a certain position/system will improve whichever one the coach decides to set him on. just saying he displayed the inherent skills to do either...not that he should keep playing that way.

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07-06-2013, 02:51 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
its nowhere near as far apart as youre saying. saying its not even close is pretty far off the mark. seeing that burish is our fastest bottom sixer, its not like its even that big of a deal. wingels being stronger on his skates and a better hitter outweighs whatever quickness galiardi has over him. just an opinion of mine at least. i always felt galiardi was closer to how mitchell played on the forecheck than anything, and thats not a compliment.

not saying burns should play like that. im saying that he played F1F2F3 with reasonable efficiency in his time at forward he wasnt really found wanting whenever he found himself in an F1 or F3 position. most likely training to a certain position/system will improve whichever one the coach decides to set him on. just saying he displayed the inherent skills to do either...not that he should keep playing that way.
And there's a noticeable difference in speed between Wingels and Burish as well. There is a noticeable difference in speed between Wingels and Galiardi. You obviously don't see that so that's going to make your argument obviously different. However, Wingels and his speed and possibly positioning where he was rarely first in on the puck fore-checking was a big reason why he wasn't working with Marleau and Couture. Being a better hitter and stronger on your skates only matters if you can make a play on the puck and Wingels simply hasn't done that because he's not there quickly enough.

As for Burns, we'll see come next season. His talent and potential as a player is obvious but the same reasons why people had concern for him as a d-man are the concerns for him as a forward. Structure and discipline in his positioning is key to him realizing it at any position...it's a big reason why I was and am against him being a forward in the first place due to his potentially greater impact as a top d-man if given the time.

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07-06-2013, 02:55 PM
  #92
do0glas
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
And there's a noticeable difference in speed between Wingels and Burish as well. There is a noticeable difference in speed between Wingels and Galiardi. You obviously don't see that so that's going to make your argument obviously different. However, Wingels and his speed and possibly positioning where he was rarely first in on the puck fore-checking was a big reason why he wasn't working with Marleau and Couture. Being a better hitter and stronger on your skates only matters if you can make a play on the puck and Wingels simply hasn't done that because he's not there quickly enough.

As for Burns, we'll see come next season. His talent and potential as a player is obvious but the same reasons why people had concern for him as a d-man are the concerns for him as a forward. Structure and discipline in his positioning is key to him realizing it at any position...it's a big reason why I was and am against him being a forward in the first place due to his potentially greater impact as a top d-man if given the time.
i think its less of me obviously not seeing it, and more you overrating galiardis. especially given that you are using an argument where marleau is playing F1 on his line.

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07-06-2013, 03:01 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
i think its less of me obviously not seeing it, and more you overrating galiardis. especially given that you are using an argument where marleau is playing F1 on his line.
Well, obviously disagree but Marleau playing F1 happens when it's necessary and when it was Marleau-Couture-Havlat, that was his role. Not so with Wingels there and they bumped Wingels off because he wasn't getting the job done in that role.

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07-06-2013, 03:06 PM
  #94
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Well, obviously disagree but Marleau playing F1 happens when it's necessary and when it was Marleau-Couture-Havlat, that was his role. Not so with Wingels there and they bumped Wingels off because he wasn't getting the job done in that role.
even if wingels is F1 on that line, hes still forechecking on much stiffer comp than galiardi. so its still a wash to try and compare their speed. relative speed wingels is slower because its more likely his competition is faster. notice they never even tried galiardi on that line? its just a narrative at this point, and even from wingels first games in SJ he showed the ability to forecheck at high speed and protect the puck on the boards.

im not even gonna say wingels is better at it, i just dont think the drop off in forechecking is close to what you are claiming it will be.

but yea, we can drop it. since we obviously disagree here

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07-06-2013, 03:13 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
even if wingels is F1 on that line, hes still forechecking on much stiffer comp than galiardi. so its still a wash to try and compare their speed. relative speed wingels is slower because its more likely his competition is faster. notice they never even tried galiardi on that line? its just a narrative at this point, and even from wingels first games in SJ he showed the ability to forecheck at high speed and protect the puck on the boards.

im not even gonna say wingels is better at it, i just dont think the drop off in forechecking is close to what you are claiming it will be.

but yea, we can drop it. since we obviously disagree here
Well...if it makes you feel better, I agree with you.

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07-06-2013, 04:07 PM
  #96
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We might be lucky and have another prospect other than Hertl make the team, I think Nieto has a shot if we don't add anyone, maybe Hamilton.

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07-06-2013, 04:09 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
even if wingels is F1 on that line, hes still forechecking on much stiffer comp than galiardi. so its still a wash to try and compare their speed. relative speed wingels is slower because its more likely his competition is faster. notice they never even tried galiardi on that line? its just a narrative at this point, and even from wingels first games in SJ he showed the ability to forecheck at high speed and protect the puck on the boards.

im not even gonna say wingels is better at it, i just dont think the drop off in forechecking is close to what you are claiming it will be.

but yea, we can drop it. since we obviously disagree here
I don't quite agree with the logic that failing against tougher competition washes out with relative success against second-tier competition. They didn't try Galiardi with Marleau and Couture because Galiardi-Thornton-Burns was succeeding and breaking it up was pointless. Wingels had moderate success fore-checking in a third line situation against other third liners...that's it.

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07-06-2013, 04:34 PM
  #98
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We might be lucky and have another prospect other than Hertl make the team, I think Nieto has a shot if we don't add anyone, maybe Hamilton.
i agree. maybe hamilton is better than someone like desjardins?

nieto seemed to click instantly in the AHL, would like him to get a few call ups this year.

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07-06-2013, 04:36 PM
  #99
TheJuxtaposer
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No reason to bring up Hamilton just to play on the 4th line with scrubs.

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07-06-2013, 04:51 PM
  #100
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No reason to bring up Hamilton just to play on the 4th line with scrubs.
everything ive heard lists him as a defensive center. doesnt sound like hed feature anywhere past the third line. unless im mistaken, ive never watched him so who knows.

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