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07-06-2013, 02:39 PM
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Erick
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Going with the kids

Just wondering, why is everyone so against the "kids" being locks to make the roster? It seems like every thread on here now has certain posters having a problem with the kids getting their opportunity. Wasn't that the plan all along?

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07-06-2013, 02:52 PM
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The only problem I might have with going with youth is Barkov and Bjugstad. We have no idea if they're ready for the long grind of an NHL season. It seems like we're throwing them to the wolves and expecting to win. It would have been nice to see them play in the AHL while we ice a product that good enough to compete for the NHL playoffs. But, we have nothing but them, so that's not possible.

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07-06-2013, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Just wondering, why is everyone so against the "kids" being locks to make the roster? It seems like every thread on here now has certain posters having a problem with the kids getting their opportunity. Wasn't that the plan all along?
There is a difference between giving the kids an opportunity and making them locks to make the roster before they have earned a spot.

Right now the latter is being implied.

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07-06-2013, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Don Tibbles View Post
The only problem I might have with going with youth is Barkov and Bjugstad. We have no idea if they're ready for the long grind of an NHL season. It seems like we're throwing them to the wolves and expecting to win. It would have been nice to see them play in the AHL while we ice a product that good enough to compete for the NHL playoffs. But, we have nothing but them, so that's not possible.
Barkov played something along the lines of 72 games last year.

There is really little reason to pull him from a men's league in the FEL and put him in San Antonio.

Of all the prospects, he is the exception IMO. He needs to play on NHL ice.

Bjugstad and Shore, unless they look great in camp & pre-season, should go back to San Antonio.

I think it is critical that we build a winning culture in San Antonio. Allowing some good young players to season there along with some veterans who have seen some NHL time (like the guys Tallon signed yesterday) will pay big dividends down the line.

I don't want Bjugstad to turn into a checking line center, which is a possibility if we stunt his development.

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07-06-2013, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
There is a difference between giving the kids an opportunity and making them locks to make the roster before they have earned a spot.

Right now the latter is being implied.
Yeah, this really didn't work well with Huberdeau last year.

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07-06-2013, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Don Tibbles View Post
The only problem I might have with going with youth is Barkov and Bjugstad. We have no idea if they're ready for the long grind of an NHL season. It seems like we're throwing them to the wolves and expecting to win. It would have been nice to see them play in the AHL while we ice a product that good enough to compete for the NHL playoffs. But, we have nothing but them, so that's not possible.
Why shouldn't Barkov be a lock to make the team?
As for Bjugstad, he probably won't even make the team. Matthias, Barkov, Goc. Bjugstad is going to have to earn his spot.

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07-06-2013, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Just wondering, why is everyone so against the "kids" being locks to make the roster? It seems like every thread on here now has certain posters having a problem with the kids getting their opportunity. Wasn't that the plan all along?
No! The plan was to slowly bring the kids into the lineup and develop properly with the mixture of vet leadership. Now that Weiss and possibly Mueller are gone, we are in need of a #1 center and another 2nd line winger. Expecting Matthias or Barkov to fill that #1 spot is a recipe for another top draft pick. While most here would love to see both of those players prove us wrong, and I would def have no shame in eating my words, the likely-hood is very slim. Having Weiss and Mueller on the team gave us role players who can play big minutes while our youth get playing time but not forced to carry the team on their backs. Let our kids get minutes and work their way to the top line without too much pressure.

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07-06-2013, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post

I don't want Bjugstad to turn into a checking line center, which is a possibility if we stunt his development.

I understand your point, but it seems like you're misinterpreting Tallon's comments.

With Matthias, Barkov and Goc already on the team, Bjugstad is far from a lock to make the roster. He's not being given a spot by any means. That is why I don't understand all these comments about all these guys being rushed, etc. They're not going to put Bjugstad in a 4th line role.

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07-06-2013, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Yeah, this really didn't work well with Huberdeau last year.
Thank you for making my argument for me.

Huberdeau earned a spot... and was still sent back to Juniors for a year.

Huberdeau is a perfect example of what the blueprint is supposed to be.

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07-06-2013, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Pantherfan12 View Post
No! The plan was to slowly bring the kids into the lineup and develop properly with the mixture of vet leadership. Now that Weiss and possibly Mueller are gone, we are in need of a #1 center and another 2nd line winger. Expecting Matthias or Barkov to fill that #1 spot is a recipe for another top draft pick. While most here would love to see both of those players prove us wrong, and I would def have no shame in eating my words, the likely-hood is very slim. Having Weiss and Mueller on the team gave us role players who can play big minutes while our youth get playing time but not forced to carry the team on their backs. Let our kids get minutes and work their way to the top line without too much pressure.
The veterans are still here.

Matthias and Barkov are better than what we had two years ago when we made the playoffs. No fan was calling the team a lock for a top pick then. If we are a lock for a top pick with Matthias/Barkov, we'd still be a lock to do that if we decided to sign a washed up free agent which is really all that's left.

How about giving Barkov a chance to prove how good he is? How about giving Matthias a chance to prove that his end of the year last year wasn't a fluke? There's nothing better in free agency.

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07-06-2013, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
Thank you for making my argument for me.

Huberdeau earned a spot... and was still sent back to Juniors for a year.

Huberdeau is a perfect example of what the blueprint is supposed to be.
Huberdeau was sent back to Juniors because they wanted him to gain some weight. So I don't really understand your point.

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07-06-2013, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Huberdeau was sent back to Juniors because they wanted him to gain some weight. So I don't really understand your point.
Agreeed! Huby was pretty much NHL ready skillwise

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07-06-2013, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
The veterans are still here.

Matthias and Barkov are better than what we had two years ago when we made the playoffs. No fan was calling the team a lock for a top pick then. If we are a lock for a top pick with Matthias/Barkov, we'd still be a lock to do that if we decided to sign a washed up free agent which is really all that's left.

How about giving Barkov a chance to prove how good he is? How about giving Matthias a chance to prove that his end of the year last year wasn't a fluke? There's nothing better in free agency.
The veterans are not here - that's the problem.

Weiss - gone
Versteeg - knee injury - out for start of season and ineffective for how long?
Bergenheim - lost year to injury and potential bad blood from arbitration
Samuelsson - gone
Sturm - gone
Garrison - gone
Jovo - back from injury?

If we were shallow at wing (and we are), I don't see that as being as critical as depth at center.

If Matthias flops, if Barkov struggles, if Goc gets hurt ... this team will be in a complete tailspin. This team has always played badly when Weiss is out of the line-up - not because Weiss is such a great player - but because we simply have not had any other top 6 centers.

Tallon needs to find someone - free agent, trade, waivers... who can add veteran depth to that position.

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07-06-2013, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Huberdeau was sent back to Juniors because they wanted him to gain some weight. So I don't really understand your point.

He was sent back to juniors because he wasn't ready.

Being underweight / understrength = not ready

That's my point. Don't bring players up until they are ready.

What was your point?

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07-06-2013, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
The veterans are not here - that's the problem.

Weiss - gone
Versteeg - knee injury - out for start of season and ineffective for how long?
Bergenheim - lost year to injury and potential bad blood from arbitration
Samuelsson - gone
Sturm - gone
Garrison - gone
Jovo - back from injury?

If we were shallow at wing (and we are), I don't see that as being as critical as depth at center.

If Matthias flops, if Barkov struggles, if Goc gets hurt ... this team will be in a complete tailspin. This team has always played badly when Weiss is out of the line-up - not because Weiss is such a great player - but because we simply have not had any other top 6 centers.

Tallon needs to find someone - free agent, trade, waivers... who can add veteran depth to that position.
Stop overexaggerating.

Weiss and Garrison are gone. That's it.

Versteeg is coming back, Bergenheim is still here and Jovo is still here. You know what? If anything, we should get rid of veteran Jovo. Is that possible? That would be great.

Samuelsson was nothing more than stopgap. He was replaced by Mueller last year and will probably be replaced by somebody else this year who gets the opportunity.

Sturm? Really? Might as well bring up John Madden too while we're at it.

"If Matthias flops, if Barkov struggles, if Goc gets hurt..." Yes and if every team's worst case scenario comes true, they're going to suck too. I understand we're Panthers fans and it's easy to be pessimistic, but that's just pessimism.

It's also only July 6th.

What's going on this year is not much different than what was going on two years ago. The only difference is that people were excited because we had no roster at the time and they decided to sign all of the free agents at once. Some of which they overpaid because that's what happens on days like yesterday. It feels like Christmas until reality sets in. If anything, the team next year is going to have more upside than the team that struggled to get into the playoffs just a couple of years ago. There was no Huberdeau, no Barkov, no Markstrom on that team.

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07-06-2013, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
He was sent back to juniors because he wasn't ready.

Being underweight / understrength = not ready

That's my point. Don't bring players up until they are ready.

What was your point?
In terms of skill, he was ready.
Barkov doesn't have Huberdeau's underweight problems so he's going to make the team.

Barkov is really the only rookie who seems like a lock to make the team at this point. Who else is being rushed? That's my point. People are just overreacting in early July. You also have to love the comments about how these guys are going to turn into Rostislav Olesz and every other bust this organization has had because they're being "rushed." Apparently, every player is created equal now.

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07-06-2013, 03:37 PM
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"We're going with the kids" is just a company line Tallon has to say because the owners have given him a low budget.

But we're not really going with the kids. I think people are getting too caught up in the words. We're going to play Barkov, and that's really it. Big deal. He was going to make the team whether we re-signed Weiss or not. Or signed another top 6 center. What other rookies are we "throwing to the wolves"? With Matthias, Barkov, and Goc, in the top 9, Bjugstad and Shore surely will be sent to San Antonio unless one of them outplays Barkov or one of the other centers which I doubt. They're not going to play on the 4th line. That's what Winchester was brought in for.

People have a right to be upset about more veteran talent not being brought in, but not to call Tallon a hypocrite, because he's not being one. He's sticking to the blueprint just as he always has. The kids will not be rushed. Barkov is going to have a spot to lose, but he's a #2 overall pick, people. They play right away. Huby would have played right away if he were more than just skin and bones. But skill-wise he was ready to handle the NHL.

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07-06-2013, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Just wondering, why is everyone so against the "kids" being locks to make the roster? It seems like every thread on here now has certain posters having a problem with the kids getting their opportunity. Wasn't that the plan all along?
Erick my old friend:

You know i love the kids.

You know i rather watch Markstrom lose and develop than Clemmer ... do whatever it is he does.

What we are saying is The Blueprint sold to us was it was to draft these amazing kids AND sign FA's to remain competitive UNTIL the kids EARN the spot.

Not say we are not resigning any of our FA or signing any replacements just going Marlins young.

As ATF, SCF etal are saying that is a distinction WITH a huge difference.

Ex. if you signed someone of quality i.e. Iginla and Bjugs has to outplay him or spend a yr in AHL becuase we have him, good. But ya given the (bad) choice of Bjugs or a Santorelli, sure i want to watch Bjugs.

The next few months will tell us if that pause and "go young" comment of DT is hiding something to ruin his true blueprint, or not.

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07-06-2013, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
"We're going with the kids" is just a company line Tallon has to say because the owners have given him a low budget.

But we're not really going with the kids. I think people are getting too caught up in the words. We're going to play Barkov, and that's really it. Big deal. He was going to make the team whether we re-signed Weiss or not. Or signed another top 6 center. What other rookies are we "throwing to the wolves"? With Matthias, Barkov, and Goc, in the top 9, Bjugstad and Shore surely will be sent to San Antonio unless one of them outplays Barkov or one of the other centers which I doubt. They're not going to play on the 4th line. That's what Winchester was brought in for.

People have a right to be upset about more veteran talent not being brought in, but not to call Tallon a hypocrite, because he's not being one. He's sticking to the blueprint just as he always has. The kids will not be rushed. Barkov is going to have a spot to lose, but he's a #2 overall pick, people. They play right away. Huby would have played right away if he were more than just skin and bones. But skill-wise he was ready to handle the NHL.
Exactly

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07-06-2013, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Stop overexaggerating.

Weiss and Garrison are gone. That's it.

Versteeg is coming back, Bergenheim is still here and Jovo is still here. You know what? If anything, we should get rid of veteran Jovo. Is that possible? That would be great.

Samuelsson was nothing more than stopgap. He was replaced by Mueller last year and will probably be replaced by somebody else this year who gets the opportunity.

Sturm? Really? Might as well bring up John Madden too while we're at it.

"If Matthias flops, if Barkov struggles, if Goc gets hurt..." Yes and if every team's worst case scenario comes true, they're going to suck too. I understand we're Panthers fans and it's easy to be pessimistic, but that's just pessimism.

It's also only July 6th.

What's going on this year is not much different than what was going on two years ago. The only difference is that people were excited because we had no roster at the time and they decided to sign all of the free agents at once. Some of which they overpaid because that's what happens on days like yesterday. It feels like Christmas until reality sets in. If anything, the team next year is going to have more upside than the team that struggled to get into the playoffs just a couple of years ago. There was no Huberdeau, no Barkov, no Markstrom on that team.
Exactly. Splurging on free agent frenzy day just makes people feel better. It doesn't necessarily make for a better team. And now everyone wants to get rid of Upshall, Jovo, etc.

Yes, we still have holes to be addressed but Tallon will fill them, as he said. He's just not going to go throwing around ridiculous contracts anymore.

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07-06-2013, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
"We're going with the kids" is just a company line Tallon has to say because the owners have given him a low budget.

But we're not really going with the kids. I think people are getting too caught up in the words. We're going to play Barkov, and that's really it. Big deal. He was going to make the team whether we re-signed Weiss or not. Or signed another top 6 center. What other rookies are we "throwing to the wolves"? With Matthias, Barkov, and Goc, in the top 9, Bjugstad and Shore surely will be sent to San Antonio unless one of them outplays Barkov or one of the other centers which I doubt. They're not going to play on the 4th line. That's what Winchester was brought in for.

People have a right to be upset about more veteran talent not being brought in, but not to call Tallon a hypocrite, because he's not being one. He's sticking to the blueprint just as he always has. The kids will not be rushed. Barkov is going to have a spot to lose, but he's a #2 overall pick, people. They play right away. Huby would have played right away if he were more than just skin and bones. But skill-wise he was ready to handle the NHL.
When the roster is final we will be at about $50,000,000. That is 6 million above the cap floor. It really isn't that low, and of course it is not that high because the ceiling is 64. But, at least we don't have to sign just anybody for any price to get above the floor.

I don't agree that Bjugs won't see the 4th line. That might be just the place for him to find his defensive game at this level.

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07-06-2013, 03:45 PM
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What we are saying is The Blueprint sold to us was it was to draft these amazing kids AND sign FA's to remain competitive UNTIL the kids EARN the spot.
It seems to me like that is still the case, though. How is it not? Let's keep in mind that Matthias is not a kid anymore. Is he being thought of as one of the kids or something? It's time for Matthias to prove if he's legit or not. He showed flashes of dominance last year when he scored 11 goals in March. It's time for him to prove that he's a top-6 center. I think I'd rather experiment with this than sign a veteran in a weak free agent class this year.

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07-06-2013, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
"We're going with the kids" is just a company line Tallon has to say because the owners have given him a low budget.

But we're not really going with the kids. I think people are getting too caught up in the words. We're going to play Barkov, and that's really it. Big deal. He was going to make the team whether we re-signed Weiss or not. Or signed another top 6 center. What other rookies are we "throwing to the wolves"? With Matthias, Barkov, and Goc, in the top 9, Bjugstad and Shore surely will be sent to San Antonio unless one of them outplays Barkov or one of the other centers which I doubt. They're not going to play on the 4th line. That's what Winchester was brought in for.

People have a right to be upset about more veteran talent not being brought in, but not to call Tallon a hypocrite, because he's not being one. He's sticking to the blueprint just as he always has. The kids will not be rushed. Barkov is going to have a spot to lose, but he's a #2 overall pick, people. They play right away. Huby would have played right away if he were more than just skin and bones. But skill-wise he was ready to handle the NHL.
Mathias is not a lst line center on a real playoff team, that is the Best Evidence.

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07-06-2013, 03:47 PM
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i hope we try to get paul statsny, not overpaying but it would be great to have him IMO

great 1C, big cap hit so thats a negative for avs, but it lowers the price and i think it might be possible to get him

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07-06-2013, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Great8Cam View Post
When the roster is final we will be at about $50,000,000. That is 6 million above the cap floor. It really isn't that low, and of course it is not that high because the ceiling is 64. But, at least we don't have to sign just anybody for any price to get above the floor.

I don't agree that Bjugs won't see the 4th line. That might be just the place for him to find his defensive game at this level.
Bjugstad doesn't have to find his defensive game, it's already very good, and that was even evident at the NHL level in the few games he played. You don't start out Bjugstad's career on the 4th line if you want him to become an offensive center. He needs to score at the pro level and develop confidence and experience scoring against pro goaltenders.

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