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Softest team in the NHL

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Old
07-07-2013, 08:26 PM
  #276
Chet Donnelly
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07-07-2013, 08:32 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
What has Sather said? Sather hardly ever says anything. Don't you know that?

I do have a good deal of trust in what Clark says. As a chief NHL scout he is above average. I also have read many of Beacon's reports on AHL game days. His assessments seem both analytical and reliable. He doesn't seem to have the tendency to paint pretty pictures when he doesn't see them. Beyond that what do you want? You're no more of an expert on this than just about anyone else here. There are things that I do take as reliable--that a big defenseman who skates well for instance and is good positionally is eventually going to get a shot--add in other factors and it enhances a more positive view.

I wonder if you ask such questions about Nathan MacKinnon or Seth Jones? Odds are on their sides that they're going to be excellent players--you know that right?
You just compared what someone on a team says about one of his players to what neutral observers say about a player not on their team. You don't see the difference?

As a side note, what makes Clark a better than average chief scout? Who is better? Who is worse? Don't you realize that none of us here can even make much of an educated guess on a topic like this?

It is hard enough to evaluate players we watch. You name almost any player and you will get a difference of opinion here on how good that player is, and we can watch them 80 times a year.

How do you assign competency levels to a chief scout as a fan? It's a serious question. I have no idea what the metrics are for that.

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07-07-2013, 09:28 PM
  #278
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Most people here thought Torts was the reason for the playoff exit. You think they are too soft. I'm the one who thinks Boston was just better.
I don't think I ever said we lost this past season because we were soft..

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07-07-2013, 10:10 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
You just compared what someone on a team says about one of his players to what neutral observers say about a player not on their team. You don't see the difference?

As a side note, what makes Clark a better than average chief scout? Who is better? Who is worse? Don't you realize that none of us here can even make much of an educated guess on a topic like this?

It is hard enough to evaluate players we watch. You name almost any player and you will get a difference of opinion here on how good that player is, and we can watch them 80 times a year.

How do you assign competency levels to a chief scout as a fan? It's a serious question. I have no idea what the metrics are for that.
The metrics are Clark's success in past drafts--not just with the Rangers but with other teams. Regarding metrics we could go down through the whole management and coaching staff as well--I mean why just cherry pick? I'm not about to go about ranking other managerial, coaching and scouting staffs of other teams just to come up with a mean average for you. Not only would it be pert near impossible but it would be subjective--not only the rankings but the metrics as well. Besides I'm not sure if I like you that much. So what's important and what's not? Maybe you could tell me--and then I could tell you whether I think you're full of **** or not which seems to be pretty much what your doing with my posts. But in any case nothing I've read or heard leads me to believe that Mr. Dylan McIlrath is not making progress towards becoming the player key Rangers scouts and management people say he is going to become. You might not like these people (and I'm not crazy about all of them either starting with the GMGS) but that's not my problem. If you have 0 faith in any of them that's not my problem either. Maybe you should give hockey management a try.


Last edited by eco's bones: 07-08-2013 at 08:20 AM.
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07-08-2013, 01:02 AM
  #280
Kel Varnsen
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Who the hell are all these super tough guys on the Blackhawks?
We're the ****ing hawks now? Forget this stupid argument I read in this thread about whether or not the hawks are tough or not, it doesn't even matter. You think we're going to outskill the hawks? If not, then how do we beat them? Because we're looking soft as newborn baby poop right now. And firing torts to bring in frenchy high skilled choking coach isn't helping matters.










The french quip was just a joke, I don't actually think that matters.

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07-08-2013, 02:05 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
We're the ****ing hawks now? Forget this stupid argument I read in this thread about whether or not the hawks are tough or not, it doesn't even matter. You think we're going to outskill the hawks? If not, then how do we beat them? Because we're looking soft as newborn baby poop right now. And firing torts to bring in frenchy high skilled choking coach isn't helping matters.










The french quip was just a joke, I don't actually think that matters.
Taking people's quotes out of context sure is fun. He's not saying we're the Hawks. He's saying you don't need to beat the **** out of people to win the cup as the Hawks have proven. But yes, we should aspire to be like the Hawks rather than worrying about outpunching people.

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07-08-2013, 02:13 AM
  #282
Kel Varnsen
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Taking people's quotes out of context sure is fun. He's not saying we're the Hawks. He's saying you don't need to beat the **** out of people to win the cup as the Hawks have proven. But yes, we should aspire to be like the Hawks rather than worrying about outpunching people.
No, "you" don't when you've got the skill the Hawks do. But we're not the Hawks. So unless the Hawks are dropping out of the NHL this offseason "we" cannot win that way since it's clear they'd be better at it than us. And I'm not nor do I think anyone is suggesting that we need more drop the gloves fighters, we need team toughness and tenacity. We'll need to play with an edge, we'll have to hit people. But that's not the way the roster is constructed anymore, and that's not what you try to do when you replace a Torts with an AV. Instead the best we can hope for next year is to beat up on the lesser talents of the league and then lose early in the playoffs when we have to actually beat good teams.

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07-08-2013, 07:11 AM
  #283
Glen Teflon Sather
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People get so defensive around here when you criticize your own team. The bottom line is this, yes the team is soft. Losing Prust, losing Dubinsky, even Feds to a lesser degree was the start. It carried into this past season and now I look at this roster and see soft serve vanilla. Outside of Dorsett, who's tough in the forward group? Cally? Ha. Boyle? Don't make me per my pants. Not only is the forward group small they're soft as well. And for the defense, they all play well as a group but no one is physical enough, no one clears the crease, no one has any snarl, hopefully Ulfie changes that. When we line up with the tougher teams they're going to walk all over us because we have no toughness at all.

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07-08-2013, 07:33 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Clowe Knows Best View Post
People get so defensive around here when you criticize your own team. The bottom line is this, yes the team is soft...When we line up with the tougher teams they're going to walk all over us because we have no toughness at all.
I agree, I love our core players (and our identity 2 years ago) but lets call a spade a spade. Cally, Krieder, Boyler can throw their weight around but no team flinches at the sight of the three of them. Almost every team in the East is getting bigger and tougher and we're not. NYR excelled in 2011-2012 when players like Dubi, Prust, even Bickel and Rupper were willing to finish checks, get under the other team's skin, and stand up for a teammate when an opponent crossed the line. Last year Aaron Asham was literally the only guy to carry the entire load. I'm not talking about goons; i'm saying we need a few gritty, tough, in-your-face players to match up against the elite in the East. Dorsett is a great pickup and he's going to do everything in his power to protect his teammates, inflict hesitation, and demand respect from our opponents, but he can't be the only one. One more calming presence, be it a Clowe/Bickell/Prust/Lucic type player and it gives the team a sense of security and allows other players to step up and play a more physical team game.

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07-08-2013, 09:46 AM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clowe Knows Best View Post
People get so defensive around here when you criticize your own team. The bottom line is this, yes the team is soft. Losing Prust, losing Dubinsky, even Feds to a lesser degree was the start. It carried into this past season and now I look at this roster and see soft serve vanilla. Outside of Dorsett, who's tough in the forward group? Cally? Ha. Boyle? Don't make me per my pants. Not only is the forward group small they're soft as well. And for the defense, they all play well as a group but no one is physical enough, no one clears the crease, no one has any snarl, hopefully Ulfie changes that. When we line up with the tougher teams they're going to walk all over us because we have no toughness at all.
I really dont care.

What I do care about is that the team doesn't have enough finesse/skill to counteract this perceived lack of toughness. This roster seems destined for purgatory.

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07-08-2013, 09:48 AM
  #286
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I'm sorry but who are these big tough teams that everyone is so scared of?

what team really killed us thanks to their physicality?

Boston? We've owned Boston for years, they came in RED HOT, and we came in hurt. Is it a surprise we lost to them? Not really. We lost Staal, Clowe, and Stralman in that series. Cally and Hagelin were playing with 1 arm each. We all know that Nash was hurt.

They had their issues too, but not like we did.

You could argue that their physicality hurt Stralman, but injuries happen.

A big part of the reason why they beat us is in fact Torts. I'm a huge Torts fan, don't ge tme wrong, but I said it from the moment we played them, our style does not suit playing against teams like the Bruins who want to use their D as the focal point of their attack.

EVERYTHING goes through their D. Their forwards do a great job of getting the puck back up top to reset when in danger. we NEVER pressure the points. Recipe for disaster.

But, who are the big scary teams we need to worry about? The Flyers? Havent we won like 25,000 straight games against them?

Maybe the Leafs? They didnt beat us with their physical forwards, when they won, it was thanks to Phil, soft as toilet paper, Kessel.

There is no Legion of Doom line out there.

Ovechkins maybe the only power hitting forward left outside of Lucic. Everyone else has skill. And we shut down AO w/o a problem.

The "softest" team in the NHL is basically bringing back the same exact team as what finished last year. The team that rampaged through the final month, that won 4 of 5 VS Washington, that came a helluva lot closer to beating the Bruins than a healthy Pittsburgh team did.

This team is not soft by any means.

Threads like this drive me crazy. No objectivity, no foresight. Just repeating crap your parents said when they were younger.. we gotta get tougher, meaner, blah blah blah.

Wayne Gretzky was as soft as they came, yet hes the greatest player to ever play, and we all know it.

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07-08-2013, 09:53 AM
  #287
Kris Chreider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
I'm sorry but who are these big tough teams that everyone is so scared of?

what team really killed us thanks to their physicality?

Boston? We've owned Boston for years, they came in RED HOT, and we came in hurt. Is it a surprise we lost to them? Not really. We lost Staal, Clowe, and Stralman in that series. Cally and Hagelin were playing with 1 arm each. We all know that Nash was hurt.

They had their issues too, but not like we did.

You could argue that their physicality hurt Stralman, but injuries happen.

A big part of the reason why they beat us is in fact Torts. I'm a huge Torts fan, don't ge tme wrong, but I said it from the moment we played them, our style does not suit playing against teams like the Bruins who want to use their D as the focal point of their attack.

EVERYTHING goes through their D. Their forwards do a great job of getting the puck back up top to reset when in danger. we NEVER pressure the points. Recipe for disaster.

But, who are the big scary teams we need to worry about? The Flyers? Havent we won like 25,000 straight games against them?

Maybe the Leafs? They didnt beat us with their physical forwards, when they won, it was thanks to Phil, soft as toilet paper, Kessel.

There is no Legion of Doom line out there.

Ovechkins maybe the only power hitting forward left outside of Lucic. Everyone else has skill. And we shut down AO w/o a problem.

The "softest" team in the NHL is basically bringing back the same exact team as what finished last year. The team that rampaged through the final month, that won 4 of 5 VS Washington, that came a helluva lot closer to beating the Bruins than a healthy Pittsburgh team did.

This team is not soft by any means.

Threads like this drive me crazy. No objectivity, no foresight. Just repeating crap your parents said when they were younger.. we gotta get tougher, meaner, blah blah blah.

Wayne Gretzky was as soft as they came, yet hes the greatest player to ever play, and we all know it.
The streak ended this year. Flyers' home opener or 2nd home game of the year, I believe.



I understand that toughness doesn't win you games by itself. But who are we kidding, we're not going to out skill anybody. Boston? Okay, we come close. But they're hard as hell to play against. Chicago? Not even close. Pittsburgh? You ever wonder why they've had our number forever?

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07-08-2013, 09:55 AM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
No, "you" don't when you've got the skill the Hawks do. But we're not the Hawks. So unless the Hawks are dropping out of the NHL this offseason "we" cannot win that way since it's clear they'd be better at it than us. And I'm not nor do I think anyone is suggesting that we need more drop the gloves fighters, we need team toughness and tenacity. We'll need to play with an edge, we'll have to hit people. But that's not the way the roster is constructed anymore, and that's not what you try to do when you replace a Torts with an AV. Instead the best we can hope for next year is to beat up on the lesser talents of the league and then lose early in the playoffs when we have to actually beat good teams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I really dont care.

What I do care about is that the team doesn't have enough finesse/skill to counteract this perceived lack of toughness. This roster seems destined for purgatory.
Wholeheartedly agree with these posts. Well said. Guess we will find out next spring.

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07-08-2013, 09:56 AM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
I'm sorry but who are these big tough teams that everyone is so scared of?

what team really killed us thanks to their physicality?

Boston? We've owned Boston for years, they came in RED HOT, and we came in hurt. Is it a surprise we lost to them? Not really. We lost Staal, Clowe, and Stralman in that series. Cally and Hagelin were playing with 1 arm each. We all know that Nash was hurt.

They had their issues too, but not like we did.

You could argue that their physicality hurt Stralman, but injuries happen.

A big part of the reason why they beat us is in fact Torts. I'm a huge Torts fan, don't ge tme wrong, but I said it from the moment we played them, our style does not suit playing against teams like the Bruins who want to use their D as the focal point of their attack.

EVERYTHING goes through their D. Their forwards do a great job of getting the puck back up top to reset when in danger. we NEVER pressure the points. Recipe for disaster.

But, who are the big scary teams we need to worry about? The Flyers? Havent we won like 25,000 straight games against them?

Maybe the Leafs? They didnt beat us with their physical forwards, when they won, it was thanks to Phil, soft as toilet paper, Kessel.

There is no Legion of Doom line out there.

Ovechkins maybe the only power hitting forward left outside of Lucic. Everyone else has skill. And we shut down AO w/o a problem.

The "softest" team in the NHL is basically bringing back the same exact team as what finished last year. The team that rampaged through the final month, that won 4 of 5 VS Washington, that came a helluva lot closer to beating the Bruins than a healthy Pittsburgh team did.

This team is not soft by any means.

Threads like this drive me crazy. No objectivity, no foresight. Just repeating crap your parents said when they were younger.. we gotta get tougher, meaner, blah blah blah.

Wayne Gretzky was as soft as they came, yet hes the greatest player to ever play, and we all know it.
One has to wonder why the Rangers were so beat up headed into that series. Cause and effect.

Also, probably more importantly, Wayne Gretzky aint walking through that door.

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07-08-2013, 09:58 AM
  #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
I'm sorry but who are these big tough teams that everyone is so scared of?

what team really killed us thanks to their physicality?

Boston? We've owned Boston for years, they came in RED HOT, and we came in hurt. Is it a surprise we lost to them? Not really. We lost Staal, Clowe, and Stralman in that series. Cally and Hagelin were playing with 1 arm each. We all know that Nash was hurt.

They had their issues too, but not like we did.

You could argue that their physicality hurt Stralman, but injuries happen.

A big part of the reason why they beat us is in fact Torts. I'm a huge Torts fan, don't ge tme wrong, but I said it from the moment we played them, our style does not suit playing against teams like the Bruins who want to use their D as the focal point of their attack.

EVERYTHING goes through their D. Their forwards do a great job of getting the puck back up top to reset when in danger. we NEVER pressure the points. Recipe for disaster.

But, who are the big scary teams we need to worry about? The Flyers? Havent we won like 25,000 straight games against them?

Maybe the Leafs? They didnt beat us with their physical forwards, when they won, it was thanks to Phil, soft as toilet paper, Kessel.

There is no Legion of Doom line out there.

Ovechkins maybe the only power hitting forward left outside of Lucic. Everyone else has skill. And we shut down AO w/o a problem.

The "softest" team in the NHL is basically bringing back the same exact team as what finished last year. The team that rampaged through the final month, that won 4 of 5 VS Washington, that came a helluva lot closer to beating the Bruins than a healthy Pittsburgh team did.

This team is not soft by any means.

Threads like this drive me crazy. No objectivity, no foresight. Just repeating crap your parents said when they were younger.. we gotta get tougher, meaner, blah blah blah.

Wayne Gretzky was as soft as they came, yet hes the greatest player to ever play, and we all know it.
Who did he play with?

A hell of a lot closer than Pittsburgh did? They won 1 game.

This team needs to address their lack of toughness in terms of people who the other team fears. They need more players who can swing the momentum with a fight or stand up for one of their teammates. Fighting is still a part of this game.

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07-08-2013, 10:02 AM
  #291
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One has to wonder why the Rangers were so beat up headed into that series. Cause and effect.

Also, probably more importantly, Wayne Gretzky aint walking through that door.
eh, not particularly. how many guys got injured because they were soft? More players got injured like cally and hags because they battled it out and were tough, and staal taking a puck to the face had nothing to do with nothing

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07-08-2013, 10:06 AM
  #292
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eh, not particularly. how many guys got injured because they were soft? More players got injured like cally and hags because they battled it out and were tough, and staal taking a puck to the face had nothing to do with nothing
How many players on this team had to lay above their size which led to injuries? I believe that is what he is talking about. How many players were injured because the other teams did not fear any sort of repercussions?

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07-08-2013, 10:07 AM
  #293
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How many players on this team had to lay above their size which led to injuries? I believe that is what he is talking about. How many players were injured because the other teams did not fear any sort of repercussions?
nobody had to play above their size.

Think adding size means Cally wont hit? Or Hags wont continue to play the way he plays?

Dont think lack of size led to any injuries at all.

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07-08-2013, 10:11 AM
  #294
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nobody had to play above their size.

Think adding size means Cally wont hit? Or Hags wont continue to play the way he plays?

Dont think lack of size led to any injuries at all.
Callahan originally inured his shoulder fighting.

Ovechkin was charging McDonagh all series. No response.

Nash gets crushed from behind by Lucic. No response.

That type of stuff happened all season.

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07-08-2013, 10:12 AM
  #295
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How many players on this team had to lay above their size which led to injuries? I believe that is what he is talking about. How many players were injured because the other teams did not fear any sort of repercussions?
That's the point I was trying to make, thanks

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07-08-2013, 10:13 AM
  #296
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Regular season. Lucic boards Nash, concussion. No response. Lucic boards Stralman in POs, shoulder, no response. Who's it gonna be this fall?

Ovi runs around like an animal throughout game 7. No response. Gotta pick your spots for sure. But refs aint gonna start sending him to the box in that scenario. Boards McD, lucky to just escape with a cut. They won the game, yes. Still a good trade off if McD injures his neck/back/concussion?

And these are just off the top of my head.

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07-08-2013, 10:14 AM
  #297
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You don't have to outskill every team. You can out mistake them, you can out defend them, etc.

We've got some talent on this team.

Are we a top 8 team in the East?

YES

We should be. Especially if we get anything out of Brad Richards. We have an elite defense.

Also, regarding our injuries, im not sure how Cally and Hagelin got injured, but i know the toughest people in the world have Concussions, and no manner of toughness is stopping a puck from hitting you in the eye...Shields help.

People act as if this team is incapable of winning. We made it to the playoffs on an uptick. We beat the hottest team in the NHL at that point in Washington.

Then, we got beat by the Bruins, a team that was healthier in terms of significant injuries, a team that was definitely hotter at that point, and, lets face it, a team that was better and more vetted. That team had won a cup together. They know what it takes to win, and even after their games they talked about how theyve never played as well as they did against us, not even in their cup winning series.

Sometimes, teams get red hot.

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07-08-2013, 10:16 AM
  #298
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The irony is that the Hawks still carried a goon on their team and carried Mayers and Carcillo, they are not even remotely close to the reason they won but I call that a team that is prepared for any type of game you want to play.

They dumped Bolland and Stalberg but kept Bickell...I wonder why...

Ignila signs with Bruins "They’re a team that year in year out is extremely competitive. They are very hard to play against. They play a physical, aggressive style".

The Rangers will have to "out skill" every team they play this year without having the better skill...sounds like a disaster to me.

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07-08-2013, 10:17 AM
  #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
Regular season. Lucic boards Nash, concussion. No response. Lucic boards Stralman in POs, shoulder, no response. Who's it gonna be this fall?

Ovi runs around like an animal throughout game 7. No response. Gotta pick your spots for sure. But refs aint gonna start sending him to the box in that scenario. Boards McD, lucky to just escape with a cut. They won the game, yes. Still a good trade off if McD injures his neck/back/concussion?

And these are just off the top of my head.

What response are you expecting? First and foremost you named basically 1 player. Lucic. The biggest, toughest, meanest power forward in the NHL.

Gee, yeah, sure, who WOULDNT want a team filled with guys that can go toe to toe with him.

Lucic played against the Hawks, it didnt matter, they won.

The Rangers essentially lost 3 games against the Bruins by 1 goal. The final game had an empty netter. We only lost 1 game by more than a goal.

Having a healthy team woulda helped.

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07-08-2013, 10:19 AM
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Inferno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
The irony is that the Hawks still carried a goon on their team and carried Mayers and Carcillo, they are not even remotely close to the reason they won but I call that a team that is prepared for any type of game you want to play.

They dumped Bolland and Stalberg but kept Bickell...I wonder why...

Ignila signs with Bruins "They’re a team that year in year out is extremely competitive. They are very hard to play against. They play a physical, aggressive style".

The Rangers will have to "out skill" every team they play this year without having the better skill...sounds like a disaster to me.
did they have to "out skill" every team last year after the trade deadline?

They finished 9-3-1 to end the season. They beat Washington. Lost 3 games by essentially 1 goal against the eventual ECC.

All without their #1 defenseman, their captain playing hurt, and Hagelin playing hurt....not to mention the big piece they got at the deadline being hurt, etc etc etc


This team is plenty tough.

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