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NEW Ott/Chi Proposal

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Old
06-11-2005, 05:30 PM
  #1
dougd
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NEW Ott/Chi Proposal

Arnason,Bell,McCarthy,4th
for
Havlat,Volchenkov

Value wise, pretty close IMO.
If OTT concerned about the loss of grit on blueline, Vandeermer could be substituted for McCarthy.

Comments????

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06-11-2005, 05:46 PM
  #2
Archijerej
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougd
Arnason,Bell,McCarthy,4th
for
Havlat,Volchenkov

Value wise, pretty close IMO.
If OTT concerned about the loss of grit on blueline, Vandeermer could be substituted for McCarthy.

Comments????
Not only the value is close but even an overpayment from Ottawa. Interesting proposal though. Defensive corps of Seabrooke, Barker, Volchenkov and Babchuk looks extremely solid but this could be also an overkill. Would Chicago be able to pay all those players salaries at some point of time? They are all touted as top pairing defenseman (maybe not Babchuk). A Ruutu-Havlat combo gives the Hawks 2/3 of a quality first line. The lost of Bell would hurt no doubt about that,but the return is pretty sweet.

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06-11-2005, 07:53 PM
  #3
Wally112pac
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If Ruutu moved to C from RW it could be a decent deal.

I really like Volchenkov.

Losing Bell would suck but we need someone to put the puck in the net in Havlat.

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06-11-2005, 07:58 PM
  #4
dougd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally112pac
If Ruutu moved to C from RW it could be a decent deal.

I really like Volchenkov.

Losing Bell would suck but we need someone to put the puck in the net in Havlat.
That's what I'm hoping for.

Arnason and Bell should come close to making up the point production from Ottawa's standpoint ( losing Havlat) and Bell will add a better physical presence as well.

Wally, from a pure honest opinion regarding this deal, what do you think of the value?

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06-11-2005, 08:03 PM
  #5
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No way in hell from a sens pov. Havlat is worth more then all three of those players.

Volchenkov might even have the second most value after Havlat he is top 4 material already.

Bell is a third liner on Ottawa and Arnason would fight to be in the top 9 while McCarthy would fight with Schubert and Pothier for the 6th and 7th spots on d.

How much more do Bell and Arnason really offer over Schaefer, Fisher, Vermette, White, Smolinsky and Varada? Not much of a difference while Ottawa gives up a proven first liner. Ottawa has the depth its not a position that needs to be filled. Arnason and Bell dont make up for the production lost by Havlat.

Unless Ruutu is in the talks Havlat isnt going the other way.


Last edited by bert: 06-11-2005 at 08:12 PM.
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Old
06-11-2005, 08:13 PM
  #6
Archijerej
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert
No way in hell from a sens pov. Havlat is worth more then all three of those players.

Volchenkov might even have the second most value after Havlat he is top 4 material already.

Bell is a third liner on Ottawa and Arnason would fight to be in the top 9 while McCarthy would fight with Schubert and Pothier for the 6th and 7th spots on d.

How much more to Bell and Arnason really offer over Schaefer, Fisher, Vermette, White, Smolinsky and Varada? Not much of a difference while Ottawa gives up a proven first liner. Ottawa has the depth its not a position that needs to be filled. Arnason and Bell dont make up for the production lost by Havlat.
I have a feeling you're underrating Bell here. He may have been third liner for the Hawks last season but so was Bertuzzi at the beginning of his career, wasn't he?.

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06-11-2005, 08:16 PM
  #7
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Well he defenitely wouldnt be first line on the sens he could possibly play second. While Bell has the size and can score and is inconsistent like Bertuzzi was at the beginning of his career he doesnt have those same flashes of brilliance. Ottawa is trying to win the cup and this is a step backwards you dont trade first line talent for depth when you already have it.

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06-11-2005, 08:19 PM
  #8
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Not bad value-wise (although I'd say Ottawa give a tad too much), but I don't Havlat is going anywhere prior to a try at LW, unless we're getting a physical, proven, scoring line LW'er in return.

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06-11-2005, 08:23 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archijerej
I have a feeling you're underrating Bell here. He may have been third liner for the Hawks last season but so was Bertuzzi at the beginning of his career, wasn't he?.
I really like Bell a lot, but giving up Havlat and Volchenkov is an incredibly steep price tag... especially given that Arnason would be of very little interest to Ottawa.

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06-11-2005, 08:25 PM
  #10
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It's not bad, but Ottawa wouldn't do it mainly because their roster is already full of NHL talents. They're giving up 2 roster players and getting 3 in return. Not that the three from Chicago aren't good enough for Ottawa, but if the Sens are trading Havlat and/or Volchenkov, it's going to be for an upgrade at a certain position...and I don't think Chicago has much that would interest a Cup geared team like the Sens at this point.

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Old
06-11-2005, 08:32 PM
  #11
Archijerej
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert
Well he defenitely wouldnt be first line on the sens he could possibly play second. While Bell has the size and can score and is inconsistent like Bertuzzi was at the beginning of his career he doesnt have those same flashes of brilliance. Ottawa is trying to win the cup and this is a step backwards you dont trade first line talent for depth when you already have it.
Im not arguing that this trade wouldn't be painfull for Ottawa but it's not like they are getting "depth that they already have". I'm talking about Bell specifically. It's that kind of guy Senator's need (at least they are claming it over and over again). Saying that he "defenitely wouldn't" be on the Senators first line is a strech IMO. I would say that he would have been or he wouldn't have been . Who knows, he had solid season on non-solid team last year. Sometimes you must be ready to overpay to make that final push ( Fedotenko-Pitkanen deal). I'm not saying however that I would do that trade if I was Ottawa, I would tweak it here and there. Anyways it's their choise, they are few pieces away and have resources to aquire those pieces. We'll see what happens.

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06-11-2005, 09:06 PM
  #12
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This deal wouldn't make sense for Ottawa because they don't need depth. They just want to get a gritty LWer and IMO they could also use a quick puck carrying defensemen for their 2nd or 3rd pairing.

How about

To Chicago:
Martin Havlat

To Ottawa:
Mark Bell
Steve McCarty
2nd round pick

or

To Chicago:
Martin Havlat
3rd round pick

To Ottawa:
Mark Bell
Cam Barker

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Old
06-11-2005, 09:14 PM
  #13
Ensane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easton122
This deal wouldn't make sense for Ottawa because they don't need depth. They just want to get a gritty LWer and IMO they could also use a quick puck carrying defensemen for their 2nd or 3rd pairing.

How about

To Chicago:
Martin Havlat

To Ottawa:
Mark Bell
Steve McCarty
2nd round pick

or

To Chicago:
Martin Havlat
3rd round pick

To Ottawa:
Mark Bell
Cam Barker
I think the second one is very doable from both sides.

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Old
06-11-2005, 09:17 PM
  #14
Archijerej
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To Ottawa:
Mark Bell
Cam Barker[/QUOTE]

This is a no go for the Hawks. I could see them trading Bell for Havlat to have that bonafide goal-scorer but I can't see them throwing a guy like Barker. Bell is their hope for a power forward, he won't (probably) score as many points as Havlat but will bring size, grit and leadership to compensate that. Who would you rather have coming in to the playoffs Vincent Damphousee or Claude Lemieux? Again I can see them moving Bell for a guy like Havlat but throwing Barker in-not a chance.

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Old
06-11-2005, 09:39 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archijerej
Who would you rather have coming in to the playoffs Vincent Damphousee or Claude Lemieux?
AHHH!!!! I think it's bull that people always think more phsyical players are more valuable in the playoffs. Fedorov, Yzerman, Sakic, Bure, Jagr, and Elias are all great playoff performers. And Gretzky and Lemieux were hardly physical at all. Meanwhile, Tkachuk and Bertuzzi are usually nowhere to be seen come April.

Havlat, aside from his debut outing (but as a rookie you don't always kit the ground running, and we got swept that year in round 1), has been fine in the post-season. And he aggitates quite well, so it's not like he doesn't bother opponents - he just doesn't do it physically.

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Old
06-11-2005, 10:03 PM
  #16
Archijerej
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Originally Posted by Man.Utd
AHHH!!!! I think it's bull that people always think more phsyical players are more valuable in the playoffs. Fedorov, Yzerman, Sakic, Bure, Jagr, and Elias are all great playoff performers. And Gretzky and Lemieux were hardly physical at all. Meanwhile, Tkachuk and Bertuzzi are usually nowhere to be seen come April.

Havlat, aside from his debut outing (but as a rookie you don't always kit the ground running, and we got swept that year in round 1), has been fine in the post-season. And he aggitates quite well, so it's not like he doesn't bother opponents - he just doesn't do it physically.
Yes, the importance of physical play is often taken out of proportions I agree. But I was talkin not only about that element of the game when comparing Damphousee and Lemieux ( maybe it was a bad example I dunno). Mind that all those guy you mentioned are absolutely elite and with all respect to Havlat I wouldn't call him an elite player just yet. Plus the guys you mentioned have had those Bell type of players to compliment them: Shanahan, Forsberg (can be quite physical), C. Lemieux. I think It's important to have both players like Havlat and players like Bell. Ottawa has great level of talent now they have to sorround those players with guys with little less skill but more grit and nastyness.

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06-12-2005, 12:18 AM
  #17
Wally112pac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougd

Wally, from a pure honest opinion regarding this deal, what do you think of the value?
I think it's pretty close.

The Hawks need a player like Havlat.

The Sens need a player like Bell.

Sens get a 2nd line center to play behind Spezza.

Hawks get Volchenkov which will help make their futre D that much meaner.

McCarthy could finally blossom in Ottawa and the 4th is a little bit extra.

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06-12-2005, 01:36 PM
  #18
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I wouldn't do this from an Ottawa perspective. I love Mark Bell, but he is not the calibre of a Martin Havlat. Plus you throw in Volchenkov, Ottawa's best defensive prospect. If you want Havlat and Volchenkov, Cam Barker or Tuomo Ruutu will have to be icoming back.

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Old
06-12-2005, 03:46 PM
  #19
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I think that Havlat+3rd for Bell and Babchuk is more even, and might be a win-win for both teams.

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06-12-2005, 05:39 PM
  #20
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I think the Sens are overpaying.

i don't want to hijack the topic, but on the sabres forum recently we were talking about trades, and i proposed

Drury, Miller, Pyatt, 1st round {assuming its not a top 5, usual Sabre pick of 10-15ish}
for
Havlat and Volchenkov

and i said that this would most likely be not enough for Ottawa, and i think its a better deal than what they get in this one.

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Old
06-12-2005, 06:31 PM
  #21
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Bell is exactly the sort of player that the Sens need. Big, physical, hard working left winger who can chip in some offense. But there's a problem (isn't there always... that's why I respect people who post proposals) and that's that Havlat is in the deal. Simply put, Havlat is too valuable to give up for *just* Bell, Arnason, McCarthy and a pick. Think about it for a second. We're talking about a guy who went point per game last year, scoring nearly 70 points. That's not exactly peanuts in today's goal deprived NHL.

But looking at those 70 points and his age and reasonable salary, you'd have to conclude there would probably be a lot of interest in his services if he were to become available. In my humble opinion, Havlat fits into the bracket of the highest caliber trade assets - young player with lots of potential but who has proven he can light the lamp yet doesn't have a monstrosity of a salary. I mean, who wouldn't want Havlat on their team? Maybe Don Cherry I guess, but he doesn't count...

So by the simple fact that Havlat is a coveted asset, I'd say that he could fetch more than what you're proposing here. It's hardly a terrible offer, in fact, it has a very nice framework to it, but it's just that Havlat is a "stud" young player so I think he could get more.

That Sabres one I like for the reason it would give the Sens a couple left wingers, including one who is a clutch playoff player (Drury), a physical strapping winger with good upside who'd fit well with Ottawa's young team (Pyatt), a goalie prospect to maybe take over the #1 role seeing as Hasek is as good as gone (Miller) and a mid round first round pick. I think that's a solid proposal...

 
Old
06-12-2005, 06:32 PM
  #22
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Havlat and Volchnkov in the same deal gets you almost anyone in the league.

No offence to Mark Bell and the throw ins but they are hardly "anyone" in the league.
Terrible terrible deal. If Ottawa wants a true PF and are trading Havlat and Volchenkov they could go get Bertuzzi for that package and most likely have Vancouver pay part of his salary.
They would call Phoenix about Shane Doan for those 2 guys.

The Chicago packages here wouldnt make any kind of short list of acceptable deals.

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06-12-2005, 09:38 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondercarrot
Havlat and Volchnkov in the same deal gets you almost anyone in the league.

No offence to Mark Bell and the throw ins but they are hardly "anyone" in the league.
Terrible terrible deal. If Ottawa wants a true PF and are trading Havlat and Volchenkov they could go get Bertuzzi for that package and most likely have Vancouver pay part of his salary.
They would call Phoenix about Shane Doan for those 2 guys.

The Chicago packages here wouldnt make any kind of short list of acceptable deals.
100% agree, Havlat is a future perennial NHL ALL STAR. He is one of the faces of the future "New NHL"

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06-12-2005, 10:33 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Vanman
100% agree, Havlat is a future perennial NHL ALL STAR. He is one of the faces of the future "New NHL"

Good, I didnt want to trade Bell anyway. We only have two players worth a darn in Bell and Ruutu and I'd just assume keep them both and see how they develop. Weve let too many get away over the years, I'd rather keep them both (along with Barker).

Havlat is a proven commodity and is the best scorer of the bunch but I prefer players like Ruutu and Bell that play with an edge. And Bell has been held back by Sutter who plays him on the third line with slugs like Scott Nichol.

When he has spent time with skilled players like Arnason and ZHamnov he has scored much more frequently. He would have been a 25 goal scorer last year on a good line and I cant wait to get Sutter out of Chicago for the sake our young player's development.

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06-12-2005, 10:48 PM
  #25
DaveMatthew
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Behn Wilson
Good, I didnt want to trade Bell anyway. We only have two players worth a darn in Bell and Ruutu and I'd just assume keep them both and see how they develop. Weve let too many get away over the years, I'd rather keep them both (along with Barker).

Havlat is a proven commodity and is the best scorer of the bunch but I prefer players like Ruutu and Bell that play with an edge. And Bell has been held back by Sutter who plays him on the third line with slugs like Scott Nichol.

When he has spent time with skilled players like Arnason and ZHamnov he has scored much more frequently. He would have been a 25 goal scorer last year on a good line and I cant wait to get Sutter out of Chicago for the sake our young player's development.
I have to say, Martin Havlat definately plays with an edge.

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