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Old
07-07-2013, 04:15 PM
  #326
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by habsroom View Post
what has this management team done that you don't like? and what should they have done?
Signing Briere was dumb. It's dumb no matter what else happens. People saying that it opens the door to dealing away DD are grasping at straws to justify a dumb move. It reminds me of folks trying to tie the Gionta and Cammy signings to getting Gomez. One has nothing to do with the other... You want to get rid of DD? Then get rid of him. You don't need to keep your smurf quota up in order to trade him away.

What should they have done? Gone after a big winger and a shutdown defenseman. Maybe this still happens. Hopefully it does. Again though, whether it happens or not the Briere move is a complete mystery. We missed out on Bobby Ryan... okay no worries. But Braydon Coburn is still out there and he'd help us tremendously. That's the guy I'd be targeting now.


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Old
07-07-2013, 04:25 PM
  #327
Et le But
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I still don't know what to think of Marc Bergevin.

I don't really like the Danny Briere signing, and I was never a fan of the David Desharnais extension, nor the Bouillon one.

I do think that he has done a lot to improve this team though. He drastically improved our management team, by adding many scouts we didn't even have positions for a couple of years ago. He hired an acclaimed goaltender coach in Stephane Waite. His Erik Cole trade was quite good, and his Brandon Prust signing looks fantastic at this point in time.

I think the drafting our team has done under him and Trevor Timmins has also been stellar, at least at this point in time. His obsession with character worries me a bit, but I still have reason to be optimistic, as we all do.

I'm just hoping there is more to this Danny Briere signing, because I really don't see the reasoning behind that one.
Good point about the management thing. That was Gauthier's other big issue, gutting the scouting department for cost cutting, and letting the kids in the system sink or swim on their own. A team with the Habs resources shouldn't be trying to save money by job cutting.

Of course, I'm still skeptical about some of Bergevin's appointments. That he's so connected in the league and has so many qualified friends is why he was an appealing candidate for the GM job, but the fact that he hires so many of his own friends is something I'm wary about. Just because someone was once a 4th liner in the NHL doesn't mean their judgment is better than someone who never played in the league.

I'm a fan of the Waite appointment, many of the scouts appointed are highly qualified and I like that we again have specific scouts for Quebec and different parts of Europe (Telepin and Krupa mean Rockstrom can focus more on his specialty, Sweden), and adding a staff psychologist was a great idea. But then you have guys like Lefebvre, Churla and Brisebois who I'm skeptical have a modern approach to the game.

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07-07-2013, 04:27 PM
  #328
Erik Estrada
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Signing Briere was dumb. It's dumb no matter what else happens. People saying that it opens the door to dealing away DD are grasping at straws to justify a dumb move. It reminds me of folks trying to tie the Gionta and Cammy signings to getting Gomez. One has nothing to do with the other... You want to get rid of DD? Then get rid of him. You don't need to keep your smurf quota up in order to trade him away.

What should they have done? Gone after a big winger and a shutdown defenseman. Maybe this still happens. Hopefully it does. Again though, whether it happens or not the Briere move is a complete mystery.
Any sign that Bergevin wants to get rid of DD? I haven't seen any. McGwire on Melnick basically said you can't trade him because of his contract... So we'd need to pay off another team to take him.

Another solution is to waive him and play him in Hamilton. No chance of that happening...

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07-07-2013, 04:29 PM
  #329
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So Fraser McLaren can't play ? Its really funny, guys who are willing to drop the gloves are often called talentless goons, but softies ( like shrimpy briere) who are completely aphysical are called one dimensional scorers.

McLaren will never be confused with Wayne Gretzky but he is a far better player than shrimpy briere is a tough guy.

We need more prust lites, if these are not available I'm fine with guys like parros so long as they don't suffer a crisis of conscience like BGL and stop doing the only thing we signed them for. The one saving grace is that if parros becomes "enlightened" we can call up tarnasky whom I'm pretty sure has no conscience at all and would punch his mother in the chops fort a paycheck.
I'll help you out since you completely missed. Guys who are willing to fight but cannot do anything else (Parros, BGL before him, all the 13th forward on other teams like Scott, McGRattan and co) ARE GOONS. Guys who score goal but can't do much else on the ice are just that, one dimensionnal (cause that's all they can do) goal scorer...

what's so funny about this ? really...

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Old
07-07-2013, 04:31 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
Any sign that Bergevin wants to get rid of DD? I haven't seen any. McGwire on Melnick basically said you can't trade him because of his contract... So we'd need to pay off another team to take him.

Another solution is to waive him and play him in Hamilton. No chance of that happening...
I think a team like Nashville would take him. He's a shifty little player and he's not without skill. I didn't mind re-upping with him because the money wasn't bad and I figured we could move him if we wanted to. Four years though was too long. Should've been a two year deal, three at the most. So you might be right, maybe he is unmoveable.

And you're also right in that it doesn't sound like MB is in any hurry to deal him.

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07-07-2013, 05:04 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
Any sign that Bergevin wants to get rid of DD? I haven't seen any. McGwire on Melnick basically said you can't trade him because of his contract... So we'd need to pay off another team to take him.

Another solution is to waive him and play him in Hamilton. No chance of that happening...
It's funny, I can't believe i'm saying this but I think our ideal GM would have been Pierre McGuire. Or at least someone that has seen the Habs up close for many years, someone that knows what this team and market would need.

I think MB is a good hockey mind, esp. a good recruiter but he said many times he has not followed the Habs in recent years and that's the problem, he's an outsider who is clueless about what happened here and what we needed to do. Hiring Briere and Parros is a continuation of what happened under Gainey.

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07-07-2013, 05:13 PM
  #332
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It's funny, I can't believe i'm saying this but I think our ideal GM would have been Pierre McGuire. Or at least someone that has seen the Habs up close for many years, someone that knows what this team and market would need.

I think MB is a good hockey mind, esp. a good recruiter but he said many times he has not followed the Habs in recent years and that's the problem, he's an outsider who is clueless about what happened here and what we needed to do. Hiring Briere and Parros is a continuation of what happened under Gainey.
YES, we could have traded Subban + Galchenyuk for Yakupov!

How did we ever let such a highly sought after individual like Mcguire slip through our fingers? Which lucky team snatched him up after we fumbled that TD pass?

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07-07-2013, 05:14 PM
  #333
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Good point about the management thing. That was Gauthier's other big issue, gutting the scouting department for cost cutting, and letting the kids in the system sink or swim on their own. A team with the Habs resources shouldn't be trying to save money by job cutting.

Of course, I'm still skeptical about some of Bergevin's appointments. That he's so connected in the league and has so many qualified friends is why he was an appealing candidate for the GM job, but the fact that he hires so many of his own friends is something I'm wary about. Just because someone was once a 4th liner in the NHL doesn't mean their judgment is better than someone who never played in the league.

I'm a fan of the Waite appointment, many of the scouts appointed are highly qualified and I like that we again have specific scouts for Quebec and different parts of Europe (Telepin and Krupa mean Rockstrom can focus more on his specialty, Sweden), and adding a staff psychologist was a great idea. But then you have guys like Lefebvre, Churla and Brisebois who I'm skeptical have a modern approach to the game.
I wasn't aware that he had hired a staff psychologist, that's pretty neat.

And yea, there are definitely some question marks in management as well, but as long as Bergevin continues to hire more well-respected and experienced guys like Rick Dudley, Larry Carriere, Scott Melanby, and Stephane Waite, I guess adding some additional ones can never hurt.

I just think it is often overlooked what a massive overhaul Marc Bergevin did on the management team, the coaches, scouts and other staff. He surrounded himself with really hockey-savvy guys and made it very clear that he isn't making any decisions alone. I think that is the perfect way to run a sports team.

That isn't to say I agree with all the moves they've made, but I feel safe in saying that I do like the majority of moves Bergevin and his team have made.

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Old
07-07-2013, 05:19 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
I still don't know what to think of Marc Bergevin.

I don't really like the Danny Briere signing, and I was never a fan of the David Desharnais extension, nor the Bouillon one.

I do think that he has done a lot to improve this team though. He drastically improved our management team, by adding many scouts we didn't even have positions for a couple of years ago. He hired an acclaimed goaltender coach in Stephane Waite. His Erik Cole trade was quite good, and his Brandon Prust signing looks fantastic at this point in time.

I think the drafting our team has done under him and Trevor Timmins has also been stellar, at least at this point in time. His obsession with character worries me a bit, but I still have reason to be optimistic, as we all do.

I'm just hoping there is more to this Danny Briere signing, because I really don't see the reasoning behind that one.
Bergevin has done al lot of good but being a GM in Montreal we all have very high expectations. The thing is Bergevin has done alot to surround himself and the team with highly skilled individuals which is very important and something we needed. At the end of the day though, he does come from the Blackhawks system and management style which is a build from within. Chicago just drafts and develops players they don't make huge splashes in FA (besides Hossa) and the team has been constantly able to ship out key players (ladd, buff, niemi, bolland) and still remain competitive and win. I think that's what he's trying to do here, and he sees the beginning of his tenure as the building of our enhanced nucleus. He's openly said Briere is a filler until other players (such as collberg) are ready to come and contribute.

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07-07-2013, 05:27 PM
  #335
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In the last presser you got a sense that MB is frustrated with some of the people who think making headway in trades is an easy thing. GM's don't just trade you good players, not without asking for your best players in return. They are all looking for the same characteristics and traits for their teams.

Take a look at the trade proposal thread and you'll see that 99 percent of people simply don't get this fact. Bergevin is not dealing with an X-box or 29 Mike Milburys, this is competitive business.

So far Bergevin has done a competent job. He has his roster under contract and positioned well for future free agent dealings, he's not panicked his way into giving up draft picks or young projects (hint: the Christian Thomas deal was a good hockey trade), and he's addressing problems that exist (Size at the draft, future of the goaltending position, coaching help to assist a struggling star player). He's doing addition by addition and not doing sideways moves that lead nowhere.

Add all that to a starting point that is a team that was tops in their division, and I hazard a guess we are going to like the results in 5 years.
Bergevin is paid to make things happen, not whine about how he can't do nothing. Murray made things happen. Lou Lamoriello makes things happen.

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07-07-2013, 05:30 PM
  #336
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It's funny, I can't believe i'm saying this but I think our ideal GM would have been Pierre McGuire. Or at least someone that has seen the Habs up close for many years, someone that knows what this team and market would need.

I think MB is a good hockey mind, esp. a good recruiter but he said many times he has not followed the Habs in recent years and that's the problem, he's an outsider who is clueless about what happened here and what we needed to do. Hiring Briere and Parros is a continuation of what happened under Gainey.
Not everyone shares your opinion of Pierre McGuire.

MB may not have followed the Habs specifically in previous years but he followed every team in the NHL as part of his job. I don't know what you mean by a continuation of what happened under Gainey. MB cleared out a number of players who deserved it. I thought his trade of Cole for Ryder and a 3rd was outstanding. IMO Parros is a worthwhile addition at virtually no cost. Briere's contract is a pale shade of what Gainey took on with Gomez, Cammalleri. and Gionta. MB didn't dump Koivu and give away McDonagh and Higgins. He didn't trade a 1st rounder for Tanguay. He didn't hire Carbonneau. So what remains of your complaint after all of the foregoing is dissected away?

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07-07-2013, 05:37 PM
  #337
Kimota
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
  • Drewiske is a great pickup -- depth never hurt anybody!
  • Bouillon resigned at 1.5m? Fantastic! Depth never hurt anybody! Plus, he's a cube lol!
  • Desharnais extended?? Did you know he was 4th in assists by centres last year, so that's a fair deal! Never hurts to have too many centres!
  • Briere is a fine pickup - did you see what Clarkson and Clowe got? NHL GMs sure are crazy! Thank god we only committed 4m a year to an undersized 35 year old player with awful fundamental stats coming off two massive injuries who produces best at centre. You can never have too many centres, remember?!
  • Gionta is a fantastic captain. BEST CAPTAIN IN THE LEAGUE. So much character, so much heart. You hate the Habs if you don't think Gionta is the best captain of all time. And you don't hate the Habs, do you???
  • Therrien took our team from 15th to 2nd!! That's amazing. Can you believe we had 36 games without our team crapping their pants?? 36 games! Who cares if the other 17 games we played like crap, the first 36 were awesome!! Remember all those times where we won? Wow! Therrien got robbed of the Jack Adams if you ask me.

Ad infinitum. Ad vomitum.

I love how DAChamp kinda shut Ozymandias and the rest of the kool-aid klan up by quoting his diatribe defending the Gomez trade. I defended the trade as well but have since understood exactly how I was wrong.

The kool-aid tastes good but rots your teeth. I love the Habs and want nothing else than to watch them win the stanley cup. I obsess over the Habs religiously, but I won't blindly support corrupt nepotism without at least complaining about it on HFboards.

Bergevin's track record indicates he's at least as blindly pro-French, anti-risk as Gainey was. The mediocrity fetish disgusts me.

We deserve a better team, a better coach, a better image. We need to be feared, to be respected by every team in the league and the media. We need to shed the culture of diving, whining, getting broken, giving preferential contracts to awful french players (Dandenault, Bouillon, Desharnais) and signing dumb coaches.

I'm all for having more French guys on the team, I really am and most would disagree with me on that point - I hate having BAD French guys though. There's a Basque soccer team called Athletic Bilbao whose mandate is to only sign players born in the Basque region between eastern France and Spain. I respect the crap out of them because they stick to their word and field respectable teams. The Canadiens insist on hiring French coaches and management, fringe French players but have mercenary American captains and leadership. One or the other, fellas. This protocol is asinine.
Both Gainey and MB share an illusion of being "pro french". It's hiring that french star to shut the fans up(both cases trying to get Briere). But their drafting says otherwise. If Goat would have done this draft we've had this year, he would have been crucified for ignoring so many french guys. For instance, like Dauphin and Carrier.

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07-07-2013, 05:41 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Not everyone shares your opinion of Pierre McGuire.

MB may not have followed the Habs specifically in previous years but he followed every team in the NHL as part of his job. I don't know what you mean by a continuation of what happened under Gainey. MB cleared out a number of players who deserved it. I thought his trade of Cole for Ryder and a 3rd was outstanding. IMO Parros is a worthwhile addition at virtually no cost. Briere's contract is a pale shade of what Gainey took on with Gomez, Cammalleri. and Gionta. MB didn't dump Koivu and give away McDonagh and Higgins. He didn't trade a 1st rounder for Tanguay. He didn't hire Carbonneau. So what remains of your complaint after all of the foregoing is dissected away?
Bergevin just came in, he couldn't have done as many blunders as Bob Bob Bob.

But Briere is very Cammy/Gio-like, Parros is very BGL-like.

I didn't say MB was exactly like Gainey. But these two moves are worrisome.

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07-07-2013, 05:51 PM
  #339
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Bergevin just came in, he couldn't have done as many blunders as Bob Bob Bob.

But Briere is very Cammy/Gio-like, Parros is very BGL-like.

I didn't say MB was exactly like Gainey. But these two moves are worrisome.
Yes, they are.

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07-07-2013, 05:59 PM
  #340
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Bergevin is paid to make things happen, not whine about how he can't do nothing. Murray made things happen. Lou Lamoriello makes things happen.
You must be refering to when Bergevin took the last placed team in the East to second in the east...

I'm not a fan of all the moves Bergevin has made but i trust him as a GM. I really like what he has done at the management level and i believe our organisation is in better hands with him as the GM. While I might not be the biggest Briere fan and his contract, let's wait and see how the team keep performing under his command.

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07-07-2013, 06:06 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
  • Drewiske is a great pickup -- depth never hurt anybody!
  • Bouillon resigned at 1.5m? Fantastic! Depth never hurt anybody! Plus, he's a cube lol!
  • Desharnais extended?? Did you know he was 4th in assists by centres last year, so that's a fair deal! Never hurts to have too many centres!
  • Briere is a fine pickup - did you see what Clarkson and Clowe got? NHL GMs sure are crazy! Thank god we only committed 4m a year to an undersized 35 year old player with awful fundamental stats coming off two massive injuries who produces best at centre. You can never have too many centres, remember?!
  • Gionta is a fantastic captain. BEST CAPTAIN IN THE LEAGUE. So much character, so much heart. You hate the Habs if you don't think Gionta is the best captain of all time. And you don't hate the Habs, do you???
  • Therrien took our team from 15th to 2nd!! That's amazing. Can you believe we had 36 games without our team crapping their pants?? 36 games! Who cares if the other 17 games we played like crap, the first 36 were awesome!! Remember all those times where we won? Wow! Therrien got robbed of the Jack Adams if you ask me.

Ad infinitum. Ad vomitum.

I love how DAChamp kinda shut Ozymandias and the rest of the kool-aid klan up by quoting his diatribe defending the Gomez trade. I defended the trade as well but have since understood exactly how I was wrong.

The kool-aid tastes good but rots your teeth. I love the Habs and want nothing else than to watch them win the stanley cup. I obsess over the Habs religiously, but I won't blindly support corrupt nepotism without at least complaining about it on HFboards.

Bergevin's track record indicates he's at least as blindly pro-French, anti-risk as Gainey was. The mediocrity fetish disgusts me.

We deserve a better team, a better coach, a better image. We need to be feared, to be respected by every team in the league and the media. We need to shed the culture of diving, whining, getting broken, giving preferential contracts to awful french players (Dandenault, Bouillon, Desharnais) and signing dumb coaches.

I'm all for having more French guys on the team, I really am and most would disagree with me on that point - I hate having BAD French guys though. There's a Basque soccer team called Athletic Bilbao whose mandate is to only sign players born in the Basque region between eastern France and Spain. I respect the crap out of them because they stick to their word and field respectable teams. The Canadiens insist on hiring French coaches and management, fringe French players but have mercenary American captains and leadership. One or the other, fellas. This protocol is asinine.
I nominate this post for funny post of the month award.

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07-07-2013, 06:11 PM
  #342
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I'll help you out since you completely missed. Guys who are willing to fight but cannot do anything else (Parros, BGL before him, all the 13th forward on other teams like Scott, McGRattan and co) ARE GOONS. Guys who score goal but can't do much else on the ice are just that, one dimensionnal (cause that's all they can do) goal scorer...

what's so funny about this ? really...
The negative connotation that accompanies goons but softie one dimensional players who are dependent on guys for their protection are miraculously an asset.

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07-07-2013, 06:17 PM
  #343
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I nominate this post for funny post of the month award.
Figured you'd agree with me..

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07-07-2013, 06:21 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by Habssupporter View Post
You must be refering to when Bergevin took the last placed team in the East to second in the east...
Lol everybody knows that the team was never really a "last placed team", same team made the playoffs the year before
no miracle here

and last season was a shortened season, anyway who cares about regular season I want a team build for the playoffs right now Im predicting an early playoffs annihilation

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07-07-2013, 06:29 PM
  #345
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As a general note, if you like the youth core of this team that is no reason to give props to Bergevin. Props for the youth core fully belong to Timmins and Gauthier.

Timmins for obvious reasons. Gauthier because:
- he understood the team was losing in 2012, and traded Gill, Kostitsyn, and Cammalleri for Dalton Thrower, Jacob De La Rose and Zachary Fucale.
- Getting rid of those vets increased the odds of drafting Alex Galchenyuk, rather than say, Derrick Pouliot.
- He traded Halak for Eller and Schultz. Eller is in everybody's shortlist for the great youth core of this team.
- He brought in Raphael Diaz.
- He brought in Alexei Emelin, and in hindsight it was not that hard to do: a 1 year 1 million dollar contract. Why couldn't Gainey accomplish this?

Bergevin may warrant credit for the youth core eventually, but so far, no.

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07-07-2013, 06:36 PM
  #346
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As a general note, if you like the youth core of this team that is no reason to give props to Bergevin. Props for the youth core fully belong to Timmins and Gauthier.

Timmins for obvious reasons. Gauthier because:
- he understood the team was losing in 2012, and traded Gill, Kostitsyn, and Cammalleri for Dalton Thrower, Jacob De La Rose and Zachary Fucale.
- Getting rid of those vets increased the odds of drafting Alex Galchenyuk, rather than say, Derrick Pouliot.
- He traded Halak for Eller and Schultz. Eller is in everybody's shortlist for the great youth core of this team.
- He brought in Raphael Diaz.
- He brought in Alexei Emelin, and in hindsight it was not that hard to do: a 1 year 1 million dollar contract. Why couldn't Gainey accomplish this?

Bergevin may warrant credit for the youth core eventually, but so far, no.
MB deserves credit for Galchenyuk for sure. And I'd also credit him with Gallagher. Not for selecting him as he was drafted years ago but for giving him the chance to play.

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07-07-2013, 06:40 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
MB deserves credit for Galchenyuk for sure. And I'd also credit him with Gallagher. Not for selecting him as he was drafted years ago but for giving him the chance to play.
Not sure I give MB much credit for galchenyuk. At least not for acquiring him. I don't put much value in letting your scout do his job. That should be a given. If you mean you give him credit for letting him stay up like gallagher, well sure, but that's also a coaching decision.

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07-07-2013, 06:44 PM
  #348
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Not sure I give MB much credit for galchenyuk. At least not for acquiring him. I don't put much value in letting your scout do his job. That should be a given. If you mean you give him credit for letting him stay up like gallagher, well sure, but that's also a coaching decision.
Well, I think you should be fair to your GM. Galchenyuk wasn't the sure pick at number 3 and he could've gone in a different direction. I agree that the bulk of the credit probably goes to TT but the buck does stop with MB. I understand where you're coming from but I think you have to give him some props for this.

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07-07-2013, 06:48 PM
  #349
Vsevolod Bobrov
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Get Gauthier back ASAP

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07-07-2013, 07:03 PM
  #350
Sorinth
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Well, I think you should be fair to your GM. Galchenyuk wasn't the sure pick at number 3 and he could've gone in a different direction. I agree that the bulk of the credit probably goes to TT but the buck does stop with MB. I understand where you're coming from but I think you have to give him some props for this.
If he had hired the scouts who made the pick he deserves some of the credit. But if he just let the scouts from the previous management make the pick(s) then he gets credit for not doing something blindingly stupid like McGuire wanting to trade the #3 and Subban for Yakupov.

It's funny that his motto is build through the draft but the most he's done in that regard is not trade away picks. If you want to build through the draft then go out and acquire picks/prospects. Sign UFAs like Jagr that you can turn around and deal for something at deadline.

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