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Old
07-08-2013, 09:42 AM
  #376
ECWHSWI
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
No it is not.

He signed Prust, Bouillon and Armstrong last summer.
argh, true, completely forgot he was hired before July!

still though, last season signings werent failure so, I'd guess he hasnt failed that often yet .

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07-08-2013, 09:45 AM
  #377
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I didn't imply he didn't try I implied he failed to get one. At the end of the day it's his job to build a winning team if he consistently fails to get the players he wants/needs then it's a problem. Granted it's still early to judge but so far there haven't been any encouraging signs. In fact a case can be made that he's not a good contract negotiator.

Now if you want to argue that the price was too high and it was the better choice to not get these guys then fine I can accept that though I would have been willing to pay a similar price for both Lecavalier and Ryan. But why did he have to make the problem worse by getting Briere? Wouldn't re-signing Ryder make more sense? Wouldn't going after Jagr make more sense? Even not trading Cole would likely be the better option.
Simple: he feels that Brière will bring more than the other players you listed and I agree.

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07-08-2013, 09:45 AM
  #378
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
argh, true, completely forgot he was hired before July!

still though, last season signings werent failure so, I'd guess he hasnt failed that often yet .
Anyway, I prefer if he doesn't do much on FA market when it's weak as this year. Unless there's a Marian Hossa-like player when we're on the verge of contending, it's better if he stays the hell away from long term contract to 2nd/3rd liners.

He needs to be more active on the trade market though, imo.

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Old
07-08-2013, 09:46 AM
  #379
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
we already have a guy on our 4th making 1.85 Mil per...
right now that's the only thing Hendricks and washing machine moen have in common. Are you saying that you would rather have moen for the next 4 years than hendricks ?

from last year moen and grit are decidedly not synonymous.

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07-08-2013, 09:48 AM
  #380
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right now that's the only thing Hendricks and washing machine moen have in common. Are you saying that you would rather have moen for the next 4 years than hendricks ?

from last year moen and grit are decidedly not synonymous.
You can't have both. And you probably can't deal Moen. And beside, what tells you Hendricks would have come here for the same contract?

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07-08-2013, 09:48 AM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
The Band-Aid was clearly for the Cole/Ryder spot in the lineup.

Like I said, MB is building the team primarily through the draft. Briere was signed to a two year contract....not a big deal. At the end of his contract McCarron, DLR, Collberg etc. will be ready for their time. I suspect that he will try to move players like Gionta, Markov and/or Plekanec in the relatively near future if they can help to acquire more size near the top of the lineup. He will only do this if the current team shows regression or the return is just too good to turn down, as the plan is to keep the big club headed forward while the long term plan is nurtured by it's success.
Both Ryder and Cole are better options so his band-aid solutions have only made us worse.

And when guys like McCarron, DLR, Collberg are ready (Which will take more than 2 years for a top-6 spot) then they will simply be replacing Gionta/Bourque and now Briere. How much better will they actually be, are all three really going to become 25-30 goal scorers like what we have now? Chances are it will be a lateral move at best.

We will also have to replace Markov, do you really think Beaulieu is going to be able to QB a top PP, finish top-5 in scoring for defenceman, play 25min a night mostly against top line opposition? It seems doubtful.

Same goes for Plekanec, if Eller is replacing him then who will be scoring 50pts (Pro-rated) from the 3rd line like Eller is doing for us right now.

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07-08-2013, 09:48 AM
  #382
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
right now that's the only thing Hendricks and washing machine moen have in common. Are you saying that you would rather have moen for the next 4 years than hendricks ?

from last year moen and grit are decidedly not synonymous.
at 1.85 Millions per season to play on our 4th line ? I'd rather have neither.


last year yes... over their career, not really...

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07-08-2013, 09:54 AM
  #383
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Originally Posted by Fozz View Post
Simple: he feels that Brière will bring more than the other players you listed and I agree.
And to me that's a big issue since not only do I disagree with that assessment a pattern is emerging when you look at his assessments of Desharnais, Subban, Bouillon, etc... That why I've been losing faith that he's a good GM, but apparently if I bring up my concerns I'm told don't worry, have patience here's some bread and a circus.

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07-08-2013, 10:08 AM
  #384
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Matt Hendricks? Is that seriously your solution to this team? Do you even watch hockey? The guy is a 4th line player and his contract is probably the worst one given during this FA madness.
What ? again watch the ottawa series ( if you have the stomach for it). 1.8 million for a guy who plays a regular shift, bangs and will fight is hardly an overpayment. He makes about 800 K more than staschy who will end up being BGL #2.

Watch the freaking games, we are so small that we got ragdolled by a team who would be in the bottom third of team toughness. They pushed us around because they could. Adding another soft one dimesional player IS NOT GOING TO HELP. Damn him and his inconsequential points, we dont NEED scoring we need grit and size ( dont take my word for the GD GM said this specifically then went out and signed shrimpy briere).

Matt hendricks will never be confused with ovechkin, but he's big, plays with jam and will fight when needed. Yeah that clearly not as important as an ageing center ( on a tream rich with centers) who will never protect his teamates and could not punch his way out of a wet paper bag. did I mention he is awfull defensively.

And as to the notion that matt hendricks at 1.85 for 4 years is probably thwe worst FA signing, if you could show me where I could find anyone other than yourself voice that opinion, I'd like to see it. Do you mind If i pull up a chair ?

If we are so much in need of tiny centers for depth, I bet the fact that nathan gerbe is still unsigned must make you all tingly inside. The fact that hes scored one point less than shrimpy over the last three seasons, is a decade younger and beleive it or not is SHORTER, man he's the complete package!

Get verne troyer on the phone, lets see if he can skate.

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07-08-2013, 10:11 AM
  #385
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
And to me that's a big issue since not only do I disagree with that assessment a pattern is emerging when you look at his assessments of Desharnais, Subban, Bouillon, etc... That why I've been losing faith that he's a good GM, but apparently if I bring up my concerns I'm told don't worry, have patience here's some bread and a circus.
you forgot to add that you are also called " dumb" and your loyalty to the team is brought into question.

Just want to cover all the bases

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Old
07-08-2013, 10:11 AM
  #386
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
argh, true, completely forgot he was hired before July!

still though, last season signings werent failure so, I'd guess he hasnt failed that often yet .
Well he wasn't able to get a big scoring top-6 player then either even though he was rumored to be hot after Doan so the point still stands.

The much maligned Gauthier also had 2 summers and guess what, he managed to get a 6'2 PWF who scored 35 goals for us. He also managed to convince a big hard hitting defenceman to cross the pond even after most had given up hope that it would ever happen.

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Old
07-08-2013, 10:14 AM
  #387
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
at 1.85 Millions per season to play on our 4th line ? I'd rather have neither.


last year yes... over their career, not really...
Prust gets 2.5 to play on our fourth line, was that a bad deal as well ? that's a deal that our GM made that I DO LIKE and I seem to recall people moaning about the supposed overpayment for prust who was one of the more important players on out team last year.
He was a bargain at 2.5

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Old
07-08-2013, 10:20 AM
  #388
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Both Ryder and Cole are better options so his band-aid solutions have only made us worse.

And when guys like McCarron, DLR, Collberg are ready (Which will take more than 2 years for a top-6 spot) then they will simply be replacing Gionta/Bourque and now Briere. How much better will they actually be, are all three really going to become 25-30 goal scorers like what we have now? Chances are it will be a lateral move at best.

We will also have to replace Markov, do you really think Beaulieu is going to be able to QB a top PP, finish top-5 in scoring for defenceman, play 25min a night mostly against top line opposition? It seems doubtful.

Same goes for Plekanec, if Eller is replacing him then who will be scoring 50pts (Pro-rated) from the 3rd line like Eller is doing for us right now.
Cole and Ryder are both bums who didn't want to play here.......nothing more needs to be said about that.

What is this nonsense about Beaulieu having to QB the power play?? We have this player named P.K.Subban.....perhaps you have heard of him and a certain trophy that he just won.

Markov was a nightmare 5 on 5 last season and if his skating doesn't return to form he will continue to be a huge liability and a PP specialist. I am not sure where in the GM's manual it outlines the necessity for young players to become exactly like the player that they are replacing.

Two years ago would you have said that Gallagher would not be in our top six this season......judging by your current logic the answer would most certainly be no. Bergevin has shown that he will not hold prospects back and will give them every chance to advance without prematurely forcing the issue.

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07-08-2013, 10:22 AM
  #389
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Cole and Ryder are both bums who didn't want to play here.......nothing more needs to be said about that.

What is this nonsense about Beaulieu having to QB the power play?? We have this player named P.K.Subban.....perhaps you have heard of him and a certain trophy that he just won.

Markov was a nightmare 5 on 5 last season and if his skating doesn't return to form he will continue to be a huge liability and a PP specialist. I am not sure where in the GM's manual it outlines the necessity for young players to become exactly like the player that they are replacing.

Two years ago would you have said that Gallagher would not be in our top six this season......judging by your current logic the answer would most certainly be no. Bergevin has shown that he will not hold prospects back and will give them every chance to advance without prematurely forcing the issue.
Subban is not a PP QB. He's not smart enough a player at this point.

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07-08-2013, 10:24 AM
  #390
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Both Ryder and Cole are better options so his band-aid solutions have only made us worse.

And when guys like McCarron, DLR, Collberg are ready (Which will take more than 2 years for a top-6 spot) then they will simply be replacing Gionta/Bourque and now Briere. How much better will they actually be, are all three really going to become 25-30 goal scorers like what we have now? Chances are it will be a lateral move at best.

We will also have to replace Markov, do you really think Beaulieu is going to be able to QB a top PP, finish top-5 in scoring for defenceman, play 25min a night mostly against top line opposition? It seems doubtful.

Same goes for Plekanec, if Eller is replacing him then who will be scoring 50pts (Pro-rated) from the 3rd line like Eller is doing for us right now.
It's not like that.

The Plekanec, Gionta, Bourque, etc..they'll be replaced by Gallagher, Eller, Galchenyuk. Those guys will be replaced by promising prospects like Collberg.

However, not every veteran we have on this team will be gone. If Bourque plays like last year, he's got a low cap hit, he's big and fast, then we don't need to move him.
Plekanec is one of the best two way centers in the NHL, he doesn't need to be moved unless we get a really great deal.
Markov can be re-signed as a veteran blueliner as well, arguably the best PP QB in the league.

Briere was just a simple band-aid, and depending on his role, he could serve a great purpose.

Cole had a great first season here, but the way he kept on saying stupid things in the media, I'm glad he's gone.
Ryder was going to hit free agency, pretty sure he wasn't re-signing here.
Briere can be an absolute force in the POs, and unlike those two, he can also create offense. Ryder is just a sniper, and Cole crashes. Briere can control the play a lot more, and we needed that.

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07-08-2013, 10:31 AM
  #391
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Well he wasn't able to get a big scoring top-6 player then either even though he was rumored to be hot after Doan so the point still stands.

The much maligned Gauthier also had 2 summers and guess what, he managed to get a 6'2 PWF who scored 35 goals for us. He also managed to convince a big hard hitting defenceman to cross the pond even after most had given up hope that it would ever happen.
We will just conveniently leave out the fact that Cole quit on the team the following season. We were nearly stuck with a terrible contract until Bergevin unloaded him for an expiring contract. Well at least Gauthier's moves got us into the post season and we finished 2nd in our conference.....oh hold on....that was Bergevin who did that with his free agent signing of Prust and the trading of Cole.

Gauthier had cap space and money to spend.....Bergevin has yet to have such luxuries.

I suppose you know that Gauthier and his great personality were the reason that Emelin decided to come over.......perhaps Emelin and his agent would have done it regardless of who the current GM was because it was as simple as him feeling ready to take that step. That wouldn't fit your argument very well though would it?

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07-08-2013, 10:33 AM
  #392
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Subban is not a PP QB. He's not smart enough a player at this point.
You are wrong.....plain and simple

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07-08-2013, 10:40 AM
  #393
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Subban is not a PP QB. He's not smart enough a player at this point.
he's too much of a ''hustler'' to be the typical calm-quarterback standard type youd like but he IS a PP QB 2.0

bah, anyway...he's a norris.

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07-08-2013, 10:40 AM
  #394
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Cole and Ryder are both bums who didn't want to play here.......nothing more needs to be said about that.
And Briere didn't want to play here until he was bought out and then got an offer that was more than he would have gotten elsewhere. By the way both those guys scored more than Briere did last year so if they are bums what does that make him?

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What is this nonsense about Beaulieu having to QB the power play?? We have this player named P.K.Subban.....perhaps you have heard of him and a certain trophy that he just won.

Markov was a nightmare 5 on 5 last season and if his skating doesn't return to form he will continue to be a huge liability and a PP specialist. I am not sure where in the GM's manual it outlines the necessity for young players to become exactly like the player that they are replacing.
It's simple we had a good year last year but we still aren't considered contenders. If we are losing guys they need to be replaced by people as good or better or we are taking a step back. We finished 2nd in the East in large part because we had BOTH Subban and Markov. If moving forward we lose one without replacing what he brings we won't be as good it's that simple.

You're opinion of Markov is laughable, do PP specialist finish 13th in Norris voting and play 25min a night. We lost Markov all of last season and finished 15th, we had Markov all of this season and finished 2nd, when he slowed down at the end of the year the team went into a tailspin. But I guess our record with/without Markov is all just coincidence to you.

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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Two years ago would you have said that Gallagher would not be in our top six this season......judging by your current logic the answer would most certainly be no. Bergevin has shown that he will not hold prospects back and will give them every chance to advance without prematurely forcing the issue.
No I wouldn't have penciled him into the lineup, but it's also pretty rare for someone who isn't highly ranked to make a big impact so quickly. Is the plan really to bank on our prospects doing the unexpected?

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07-08-2013, 11:10 AM
  #395
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It's not like that.

The Plekanec, Gionta, Bourque, etc..they'll be replaced by Gallagher, Eller, Galchenyuk. Those guys will be replaced by promising prospects like Collberg.

However, not every veteran we have on this team will be gone. If Bourque plays like last year, he's got a low cap hit, he's big and fast, then we don't need to move him.
Plekanec is one of the best two way centers in the NHL, he doesn't need to be moved unless we get a really great deal.
Markov can be re-signed as a veteran blueliner as well, arguably the best PP QB in the league.

Briere was just a simple band-aid, and depending on his role, he could serve a great purpose.
If the idea is we have to build through the draft to address our needs then we are not talking about next year we are talking 3+ years. At that time the chances are at least some if not most of Bourque, Gionta, Markov, Plekanec will either not be here or have declined from current levels of play. If people are saying who cares about Briere because he won't be around when we are contenders, well there's a good chance some other important pieces won't be around either. Banking on prospects to replace all of them is not going to cut it.


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Cole had a great first season here, but the way he kept on saying stupid things in the media, I'm glad he's gone.
Ryder was going to hit free agency, pretty sure he wasn't re-signing here.
Briere can be an absolute force in the POs, and unlike those two, he can also create offense. Ryder is just a sniper, and Cole crashes. Briere can control the play a lot more, and we needed that.
Are we really going back to the era of trading players because of things they say/do off ice. Cole was a leader in the locker-room who was a good with the young players. Shouldn't that matter more than some comments about greedy owners?

As for Ryder from the sound of it we didn't even offer him a contract. And why trade for a pending UFA if you aren't a contender and don't plan on signing him.

Plekanec, Desharnais, Eller, Galchenyuk can all control the tempo, we need people who crash the net more than we need people who can control the play.


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We will just conveniently leave out the fact that Cole quit on the team the following season. We were nearly stuck with a terrible contract until Bergevin unloaded him for an expiring contract. Well at least Gauthier's moves got us into the post season and we finished 2nd in our conference.....oh hold on....that was Bergevin who did that with his free agent signing of Prust and the trading of Cole.
If Cole quit on the team than does that mean Briere also quit on Philly? They both had really bad years, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and say it was due to the lockout shortened season but that doesn't explain Briere's drop in production the year before. Briere has been declining over the past few years, Cole had one bad year.

Are you seriously saying that signing Prust, Bouillon, and Armstrong is the difference between a 15th place and 2nd place team. The team's success last year had a lot to do with Gauthier.

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Gauthier had cap space and money to spend.....Bergevin has yet to have such luxuries.
Bergevin had two compliance buyouts, Gauthier had a 7.5m dollars millstone in Gomez, and arguably another 6m dollar one in Cammy.

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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
I suppose you know that Gauthier and his great personality were the reason that Emelin decided to come over.......perhaps Emelin and his agent would have done it regardless of who the current GM was because it was as simple as him feeling ready to take that step. That wouldn't fit your argument very well though would it?
I know that we had been trying to bring him over for around 5 years, and that Gauthier gave him a return to the KHL out clause which no one had been willing to do before and he was criticized for giving out.

If you want to use the excuse of we don't really know what goes on behind the scenes then we can only judge people on what they end up accomplishing. Gauthier DID bring in talented players with size. Bergevin has brought in small players.

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07-08-2013, 11:11 AM
  #396
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
The Band-Aid was clearly for the Cole/Ryder spot in the lineup.

Like I said, MB is building the team primarily through the draft. Briere was signed to a two year contract....not a big deal. At the end of his contract McCarron, DLR, Collberg etc. will be ready for their time. I suspect that he will try to move players like Gionta, Markov and/or Plekanec in the relatively near future if they can help to acquire more size near the top of the lineup. He will only do this if the current team shows regression or the return is just too good to turn down, as the plan is to keep the big club headed forward while the long term plan is nurtured by it's success.
Neither Cole nor Ryder were shrimps. Cole was actually a decent physical player. So no, Briere actually doesn't fill that gap.

Again, gaping wound from the forehead and we get a Band-Aid for the pinky finger. I really don't see where you're coming from here. We now have FIVE really small forwards in our lineup. Dude, that is absolutely ridiculous. We have almost no players with skill and size. It's all either smurfs, grinders or goons. And I don't see how this helps our younger guys at all in that Briere and DD will steal the easy icetime away from them and they'll "grow up" in an environment when we'll be pushed around all the time.

Horrible way to develop younger players.

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07-08-2013, 12:02 PM
  #397
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Neither Cole nor Ryder were shrimps. Cole was actually a decent physical player. So no, Briere actually doesn't fill that gap.

Again, gaping wound from the forehead and we get a Band-Aid for the pinky finger. I really don't see where you're coming from here. We now have FIVE really small forwards in our lineup. Dude, that is absolutely ridiculous. We have almost no players with skill and size. It's all either smurfs, grinders or goons. And I don't see how this helps our younger guys at all in that Briere and DD will steal the easy icetime away from them and they'll "grow up" in an environment when we'll be pushed around all the time.

Horrible way to develop younger players.
agreed something has to be done , those 5 cant play all on one team

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07-08-2013, 12:35 PM
  #398
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agreed something has to be done , those 5 cant play all on one team
What's also worrisome is who we have in Hamilton to replace our offensive forwards if say Bourque and MaxPac go down to injuries... Christian Thomas is probably the most ready call-up. 5'9. If Andrighetto makes the team and does well in Hamilton, he is another very skilled player with no size that could be called up.

The smallest team in the NHL got alot smaller this offseason. The moves that can be done to get bigger are very limited. And is it even something that Bergevin feels needs to absolutely be fixed for October? At the last press conference he only said he would prefer getting bigger players depending on opportunity, that's it...

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07-08-2013, 12:43 PM
  #399
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I love how the "stop being so negative" is the most negative thread around.

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07-08-2013, 12:44 PM
  #400
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Neither Cole nor Ryder were shrimps. Cole was actually a decent physical player. So no, Briere actually doesn't fill that gap.

Again, gaping wound from the forehead and we get a Band-Aid for the pinky finger. I really don't see where you're coming from here. We now have FIVE really small forwards in our lineup. Dude, that is absolutely ridiculous. We have almost no players with skill and size. It's all either smurfs, grinders or goons. And I don't see how this helps our younger guys at all in that Briere and DD will steal the easy icetime away from them and they'll "grow up" in an environment when we'll be pushed around all the time.

Horrible way to develop younger players.
We may disagree on Price, but we agree here. I'm not sure what's going on, really. We got Parros which does fill a need. But we had other bigger needs and they have not been addressed. We'll see what the team looks like going into the season..but if no further changes are made, I'm off the Bergy bandwagon. Why is it so hard for GMs here to understand that there is a big need to get bigger and tougher?

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