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Old
07-12-2013, 02:25 PM
  #576
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Why? If Radar flourishes on the wing our forwards stack up perfectly to have a Radar-Stastny-Landy line to go up against top opposition and just dominate the puck, leaving Mac and Dutchy with lesser lines to feast on as both will get a crafty winger to feed them on one side, Parenteau, Tanguay, Sgarbossa and Hishon, and a sandpaper guy to make space and chip in with McGinn and Downie. That's a top 9 that could absolutely be at the top of the league in a few years when Dutchy, Mac, Landy and Radar start to hit their primes.
I doubt MacKinnon is going to be on the third line very long. It is this year and maybe next, after that if he still is on the third line, i will be really worried.

And i can't see us paying either ROR or Stastny 5M+ to be centering the 3rd line either.

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07-12-2013, 02:26 PM
  #577
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Or they could both just feed Landy for every single goal ever scored!
I'll take a 90+ goal season from Landeskog. It'll make contract discussions difficult but it would be worth it.

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07-12-2013, 02:29 PM
  #578
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If Joe Sakic accepts a deal in which he trades Radar for Kulikov I hope he gets fired on the spot.
I am with you on this one, I like Kulikov and definitely would take him on the Avs, but not for ROR.

Also Habs are my favourite Eastern team, but man their fanbase is very whiny at times. I remember the night when Pacioretty "died" and the police were going to do an investigation on the Chara hit while Patchs came back like a 2 weeks to a month later, freakin hilarious from that fanbase.

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07-12-2013, 02:40 PM
  #579
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Who knows what'll happen between now and then. If he's getting 90 points with Tanguay on his wing, he'll need to be much more of a goal scorer than in the past.
It would be 20g 70a

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07-12-2013, 02:46 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
The three offensive line approach always sounds great in theory but never in practice. We've seen it since it was started. At least one of Stastny, Duchene, and O'Reilly have struggled offensively for long periods of time, and sometimes two of them at a time.

What is the only real example of it working? Pittsburgh, and that's because Jordan Staal accepted his role as more of a two way guy and could mesh with less talented linemates. Only O'Reilly can fill that role. Stastny needs talented linemates.

If Stastny and Duchene both start off producing consistent numbers next year it will be because they are being played like true top sixers, while MacKinnon is the one taking a backseat in his role and with his linemates.

That's all well and good but they're not going to keep a 1st overall pick in that role for long. Then what happens? Are Stastny and Duchene really going to keep up the same level of production. I don't think so. It just never seems to work that way. You have to have players playing in their roles.
It hasn't worked because we haven't had the wingers for it. Now we do. Plus it wouldn't be 3 offensive lines, the Stastny, O'Reilly and Landeskog line would be more defensive and take the harder minutes the way Bergeron's line does for Boston, but with the three of them together they'll still produce in those tougher minutes exactly like the Radar, Landy and Downie line did.

Mac and Duchene would then still have the wingers they need because we now have the depth, Dutchy keeps PAP and McG who he was great with last year, while Mac gets Downie and Tanguay/Sgar/Hishon. With the Landy line eating the tougher minutes one of those guys would get to just **** lesser opposition every single night. And who that is will change based on the opposition and how they play us. But with these wingers everybody will get their chances to produce and when everyone starts hitting their primes not a team in the league will be able to best that top 9.

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07-12-2013, 02:46 PM
  #581
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Yandle has three years left on his deal. He's not going to be bolting anytime soon, if at all.

It doesn't make much sense to ask him his intentions now. Even if he has intentions of going to Boston now he cold easily do a complete 180 in three years and decide to stay, after getting to know the city and seeing how competitive they hopefully are by then, and that he plays a big role in that.
I thought he had two years left not three, so that makes sense.

As for the not running three scoring lines thing, Stastny can be in that shutdown role as we've seen. However hes not going to give us 60-80 points in that role either. But if he continued to give us 50 points a year like he has, then I'd be fine with that.

Especially if Mack is the one giving us 70-90 points a year once he forces that transition.

Stastny 'needs' talented line-mates to produce closer to a point per game, but he does not 'need' overly talented line-mates to give us 50 points a year anymore than O'Reilly does. In fact you could make an argument that O'Reilly needs talented line-mates in order to even give us 50-60 points a year, as we've never seen him suck it up with the third liners and produce 50 plus points.

What we do know is that Stastny has a much better chance of giving us 60-70 points until Mackinnon matures than O'Reilly does regardless of his line-mates.

I also think Stastny's age makes him the better candidate to transition into a shutdown role like he played last year, while Mack transitions into a #1A/B with Duchene.

When Mackinnon's ELC is up, Stastny will be 30 years old. I also think that when needed, Stastny would be a great fit on Mackinnon's LW once Tanguay is gone. Although I'd use it in more of a 'stack the deck' type situation when your down at the end of a period or game.

Hell I actually like the idea of keeping all four, but this has about a snow balls chance in hell of happening.

O'Reilly - Duchene - Parenteau

Stastny - Mackinnon - Landeskog

At the same time, it would be fairly easy to either trade O'Reilly for a natural LW, or move McGinn up there.

And to cap it all off, you say 5.5M wouldn't be worth it for a Stastny or O'Reilly to be the third center? Well they won't be, at least not for another year or two. At which time the cap will have risen quite a bit. If the cap is 80M in two years, having a little extra salary in your third center won't be an issue, especially if hes getting more like 17-18 minutes a night instead of the 14-16 a normal third line shutdown center would get, and giving you 50 points instead of 30-40 if that.


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07-12-2013, 02:48 PM
  #582
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If Joe Sakic accepts a deal in which he trades Radar for Kulikov I hope he gets fired on the spot.
I have seen Kulikov when he was playing in the Q and wow, he was a hell of a player put he did not translate his strong play in the Q to the NHL yet. Will he be able to? Nobody knows. Kulikov has potential to get better but Radar is a sure thing.

Panthers would have to add bigtime because the way Kulikov played last year, i did not see a 1rst pairing dman in him, just an average 2nd pairing.

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07-12-2013, 02:49 PM
  #583
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It would be 20g 70a
Ok...well who are those assists going to? I guess in a really ideal world 20 to Tanguay, 30 to Landeskog, and the rest PP, alternate line mates, or line changes...that's ambitious though

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07-12-2013, 02:57 PM
  #584
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Avs haven't really had much time to run three scoring lines with the centers we have since O'Reilly showed that he can be a scoring line center in November 2011 (Duchene injury and O'Reilly holdout removes one center for half the games played since) . And with the wingers Avs had the past two years I'm not sure I would call them scoring lines anyway when you have Mitchell/Olver/Jones as wingers.

It looks better as far as being able to roll three lines this year and Avs are better insulated against injury with four good centers, so I'm looking forward to this season with some optimism.

But I am also aware that one line will probably have to take on defensive responsibility and not be put in a position to create as much offense as they can, like Stastny had to do the past season.

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07-12-2013, 03:00 PM
  #585
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That's why I want that "third" line to be one we load up our best two way guys on and that means Landy, Radar and Staz, cause those three are good enough to still produce while handling more of the "third line" responsibilities.

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07-12-2013, 03:02 PM
  #586
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Ok...well who are those assists going to? I guess in a really ideal world 20 to Tanguay, 30 to Landeskog, and the rest PP, alternate line mates, or line changes...that's ambitious though
This is why I think 70-80 points is Stastny ceiling, but I do fully believe he can get back to that.

I don't have as much faith that O'Reilly can do the same thing, and he sure as hell hasn't proven he can put up 55 points with the worst wingers like Stastny has either.

I love O'Reilly, but due to his age, contract status, and the years ahead of him in his career. He has much more value in a trade, while the 10 plus years he has ahead of him make him much less likely to accept being the third center long term.

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07-12-2013, 03:03 PM
  #587
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I got an email with a presale saying it was September 28.
Ah, thank you, sir.

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07-12-2013, 03:14 PM
  #588
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It hasn't worked because we haven't had the wingers for it. Now we do. Plus it wouldn't be 3 offensive lines, the Stastny, O'Reilly and Landeskog line would be more defensive and take the harder minutes the way Bergeron's line does for Boston, but with the three of them together they'll still produce in those tougher minutes exactly like the Radar, Landy and Downie line did.

Mac and Duchene would then still have the wingers they need because we now have the depth, Dutchy keeps PAP and McG who he was great with last year, while Mac gets Downie and Tanguay/Sgar/Hishon. With the Landy line eating the tougher minutes one of those guys would get to just **** lesser opposition every single night. And who that is will change based on the opposition and how they play us. But with these wingers everybody will get their chances to produce and when everyone starts hitting their primes not a team in the league will be able to best that top 9.
It just doesn't work that way. There's not enough ice time. There's not enough big moment times in a game. PP's are only two minutes. Star players need to be played like go to guys.

Bergeron's line was either the 1st or 2nd line depending on how you look at it. This is why he had such a big impact. If you're playing a Stastny-O'Reilly-Landy 3rd line, then you're going to be getting defense out of it. Not offense. And it makes no sense to have two $5M+ players on a defensive line that isn't scoring at a high right. Not to mention those guys are just too good to be relegated to a more defensive role.

If they do end up scoring, then at least one of Duchene or Mack's lines will be in a funk. That's just how it works. You're not going to be seeing three scoring lines just chugging along producing consistently like a well oiled machine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post

As for the not running three scoring lines thing, Stastny can be in that shutdown role as we've seen. However hes not going to give us 60-80 points in that role either. But if he continued to give us 50 points a year like he has, then I'd be fine with that.

Especially if Mack is the one giving us 70-90 points a year once he forces that transition.

Stastny 'needs' talented line-mates to produce closer to a point per game, but he does not 'need' overly talented line-mates to give us 50 points a year anymore than O'Reilly does. In fact you could make an argument that O'Reilly needs talented line-mates in order to even give us 50-60 points a year, as we've never seen him suck it up with the third liners and produce 50 plus points.

What we do know is that Stastny has a much better chance of giving us 60-70 points until Mackinnon matures than O'Reilly does regardless of his line-mates.

I also think Stastny's age makes him the better candidate to transition into a shutdown role like he played last year, while Mack transitions into a #1A/B with Duchene.

When Mackinnon's ELC is up, Stastny will be 30 years old. I also think that when needed, Stastny would be a great fit on Mackinnon's LW once Tanguay is gone. Although I'd use it in more of a 'stack the deck' type situation when your down at the end of a period or game.

Hell I actually like the idea of keeping all four, but this has about a snow balls chance in hell of happening.

O'Reilly - Duchene - Parenteau

Stastny - Mackinnon - Landeskog

At the same time, it would be fairly easy to either trade O'Reilly for a natural LW, or move McGinn up there.

And to cap it all off, you say 5.5M wouldn't be worth it for a Stastny or O'Reilly to be the third center? Well they won't be, at least not for another year or two. At which time the cap will have risen quite a bit. If the cap is 80M in two years, having a little extra salary in your third center won't be an issue, especially if hes getting more like 17-18 minutes a night instead of the 14-16 a normal third line shutdown center would get, and giving you 50 points instead of 30-40 if that.
Like I mentioned above, it does not make sense to re-sign Stastny at surely $5M+ and O'Reilly at a similar amount and only expect them to be 50 point players. And that's assuming they could be 50 point players, and Duchene and Mack will be the more offensive guys, which I still think is too optimistic.

You can justify one guy like O'Reilly on a third line in a more defensive role at around $5M, but not two, and O'Reilly can bring more to the table in that kind of role.

As for MacKinnon and waiting for his ELC to be up, and for Tanguay's deal to be up, that's in three years. He absolutely will be, and should be playing a true top six role much before then.

I still maintain it sounds great in theory, but it will not work long term in practice.


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Old
07-12-2013, 03:25 PM
  #589
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First of all, it wouldn't be a third line, just cause they're bringing defense doesn't mean they can't bring offense to, especially when you're talking about guys as good as Radar, Staz and Landy. We don't need every line scoring every game, we just need to be kicking the ass of the other teams' lines every night, and having enough attacking prowess that even if every line isn't clicking at full force every night we've got enough of them carrying the weight while the others are cold to score every night. And there is no reason to believe that they can't all be clicking at once either, just that if one of them is cold the others can carry the load.

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07-12-2013, 03:44 PM
  #590
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Dater is saying that Duchene is close to being signed to an extension.

Possible numbers
- Cap hit of 6 million
- Minimum of four years

Lake Erie also signed defenseman MikaŽl Tam from Quebec Remparts.

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07-12-2013, 03:46 PM
  #591
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This is why I think 70-80 points is Stastny ceiling, but I do fully believe he can get back to that.

I don't have as much faith that O'Reilly can do the same thing, and he sure as hell hasn't proven he can put up 55 points with the worst wingers like Stastny has either.

I love O'Reilly, but due to his age, contract status, and the years ahead of him in his career. He has much more value in a trade, while the 10 plus years he has ahead of him make him much less likely to accept being the third center long term.
I don't care if O'Reilly stays at 55 points. I think he's the better player for us. We'll hopefully have 70-80 points from Mack and Duchene. But I don't think you can replace how good of a two way player O'Reilly is and I think we would regret it way more if we gave him up. It'll be really interesting to see how O'Reilly plays with new linemates in Duchene and PA. Him and Landeskog had some ridiculous chemistry and neither really hit the top of their game last year when they were apart. But still I'd rather O'Reilly over Stas. But honestly, this year will be really telling...if O'Reilly adjusts well to wing, I think we have to keep him

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07-12-2013, 03:50 PM
  #592
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Originally Posted by S E P H View Post
Dater is saying that Duchene is close to being signed to an extension.

Possible numbers
- Cap hit of 6 million
- Minimum of four years

Lake Erie also signed defenseman MikaŽl Tam from Quebec Remparts.
Good news!

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07-12-2013, 03:51 PM
  #593
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Dater is saying that Duchene is close to being signed to an extension.

Possible numbers
- Cap hit of 6 million
- Minimum of four years
Great news. Hope it's 6 years...

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07-12-2013, 03:52 PM
  #594
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Great news. Hope it's 6 years...
8 @ 6m per would be even better

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07-12-2013, 04:06 PM
  #595
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First of all, it wouldn't be a third line, just cause they're bringing defense doesn't mean they can't bring offense to, especially when you're talking about guys as good as Radar, Staz and Landy. We don't need every line scoring every game, we just need to be kicking the ass of the other teams' lines every night, and having enough attacking prowess that even if every line isn't clicking at full force every night we've got enough of them carrying the weight while the others are cold to score every night. And there is no reason to believe that they can't all be clicking at once either, just that if one of them is cold the others can carry the load.
You don't pay 2/3 of a line $10M+ to just be kicking the ass of the other teams lines, and not scoring. You pay players that kind of money to contribute offensively.

It's a utopian way to build a team, to expect to have three offensive lines where they all pick up the slack for each other, but none of them have extended dips in production.

You're also assuming the O'Reilly-Stastny-Landy line is the only line to worry about not producing. That's been my hole premise, that it could be any of the three lines that will struggle.

Say the more defensive line is contributing offensively, but Duchene's line isn't. Now he's struggling offensively and getting paid $6M+.

There is reason to believe they can't all be clicking offensively at the same time, because there has never been an example of this happening that I'm aware of. Pittsburgh is the only one I can think of that had three legit centers, and Staal never scored more than 50 points there, while the other two are literally the two best players in the world.

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07-12-2013, 04:15 PM
  #596
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You don't pay 2/3 of a line $10M+ to just be kicking the ass of the other teams lines, and not scoring. You pay players that kind of money to contribute offensively.
Does it have to be a foregone conclusion that just because the line in question plays good defense, it can't score at a solid clip?

I believe Quenneville puts Toews' line out against other teams' top lines all of the time. Same with Babcock and Datsyuk's line. They still score just fine.

It's going to be an interesting experiment.

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07-12-2013, 04:27 PM
  #597
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You don't pay 2/3 of a line $10M+ to just be kicking the ass of the other teams lines, and not scoring. You pay players that kind of money to contribute offensively.

It's a utopian way to build a team, to expect to have three offensive lines where they all pick up the slack for each other, but none of them have extended dips in production.

You're also assuming the O'Reilly-Stastny-Landy line is the only line to worry about not producing. That's been my hole premise, that it could be any of the three lines that will struggle.

Say the more defensive line is contributing offensively, but Duchene's line isn't. Now he's struggling offensively and getting paid $6M+.

There is reason to believe they can't all be clicking offensively at the same time, because there has never been an example of this happening that I'm aware of. Pittsburgh is the only one I can think of that had three legit centers, and Staal never scored more than 50 points there, while the other two are literally the two best players in the world.
I think my point came down to, Stastny has produced at a 50 point pace with the worst wingers and in a shutdown role, while O'Reilly has not.

Hence my reasoning for keeping Stastny, I think Stastny can give us 60-80 points as a #2 this year and maybe next, and start to transition into the #3 where we'd see another drop in production but back to a 50 point pace.

Honestly, I'm with you in thinking that keeping both of them long term is unrealistic. I'm just more on the side of keeping Stastny if he improves this year. If not, then I go O'Reilly all the way to be honest.

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07-12-2013, 04:36 PM
  #598
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Does it have to be a foregone conclusion that just because the line in question plays good defense, it can't score at a solid clip?
That's what this was in reference to from that same post.

"You're also assuming the O'Reilly-Stastny-Landy line is the only line to worry about not producing. That's been my (w)hole premise, that it could be any of the three lines that will struggle.

Say the more defensive line is contributing offensively, but Duchene's line isn't. Now he's struggling offensively and getting paid $6M+. "

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I believe Quenneville puts Toews' line out against other teams' top lines all of the time. Same with Babcock and Datsyuk's line. They still score just fine.

It's going to be an interesting experiment.
Those are clear cut 1st lines on the team that happen to be great defensively. Their other two lines don't resemble the makeup of a Duchene or MacKinnon type scoring line.

It's just never been proven to work. Ever. It could potentially work with O'Reilly, since (all holdout jokes aside) he really does have some elite level intangibles like his turnovers at center ice, and near the offensive blueline, as well as a gritty hard working nature and consistent 2nd and 3rd efforts at loose pucks as hard as his 1st.

Stastny is a good defensive center too, but he doesn't have near the impact in those other areas that O'Reilly does. He's just not as successful when he battles for pucks, and that's not even a knock at his effort level, because it's there. He's a 2nd line offensive center, that can play good defense.

O'Reilly can be that $5M 50 point 3rd center behind hopeful P/G guys like Duchene and MacKinnon. Paying Stastny $5M+ to do the same thing with him is just taking up unnecessary cap space (even with it rising) and risks turning it into a full time offensive line.

Basically what I'm saying is one line has to have lesser point totals. It makes the most sense for that to be O'Reilly's. Play him in mostly defensive situations, and end zone draws, and if he can contribute offensively as well, awesome.

Even with O"Reilly on the Avs, and Staz gone it runs the risk of not working as a "team." Just like O'Reilly with Duchene and Staz hasn't worked as a "team."

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07-12-2013, 04:41 PM
  #599
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I just don't get why you think they have this firm cap on their production when you put Staz out there with Radar and Landy instead of Davey Jones and Plooshy. That line could still put up 60+ each even facing the more defensive minutes and assignments. And I'd sure as hell pay the three of them 15 mil a year moving forward to do that while the Dutchy and Mac lines get to just do their thing.

And plenty of teams have excelled recently with very even top 9s, ours would just be better because we have the two dynamic star centermen on top of the sick compliment. And even teams hadn't been winning the cup with great depth recently something being unprecedented is no reason to assume it won't work, our depth would be insane in a few years when they all get some time in the NHL.

I guess I just don't get why staz, radar and Landy can't put up 55-65 points with Dutchy and Mac each pushing or breaking PPG. We have the pieces to have an absolutely insane top 9, that would be unprecedented if they all grow right.

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07-12-2013, 04:44 PM
  #600
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Country: United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
I think my point came down to, Stastny has produced at a 50 point pace with the worst wingers and in a shutdown role, while O'Reilly has not.

Hence my reasoning for keeping Stastny, I think Stastny can give us 60-80 points as a #2 this year and maybe next, and start to transition into the #3 where we'd see another drop in production but back to a 50 point pace.

Honestly, I'm with you in thinking that keeping both of them long term is unrealistic. I'm just more on the side of keeping Stastny if he improves this year. If not, then I go O'Reilly all the way to be honest.
Maybe I misunderstood what we were talking about. I thought we were talking after next year, when we have to decide whether to move forward with one, both, or neither of Stastny and O'Reilly. The long term building of this team.

If you were just talking about this year, then it's manageable and not really what I was referring to, although I still think it makes more sense to just cut ties with Staz, and bring in a D, or an asset to be used to bring in a D, and start the season with a more well rounded group with a better shot at making the playoffs.

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