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Joe McDonnell leaving for Dallas, Wings to promote Jeff Finley and David Kolb

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Old
07-06-2013, 05:15 PM
  #51
Reality Check
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Originally Posted by ricky0034 View Post

Nill on the other hand....
Hasn't proven anything so far.

In addition, it is INCREDIBLY unrealistic for people to believe a front office would stay intact forever after having so much success.

The fact everything has been status quo for so long is going against the grain.

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07-06-2013, 05:15 PM
  #52
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What does it really matter? Whomever the Wings draft don't see the NHL for 4 or 5 years anyways...

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07-06-2013, 05:17 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
I doubt very much Andersson's allegiances favor Nill before Holland. There is no offer he would match and likely no title they wouldn't give him if he requested it.
I am always curious why he hasn't jumped the pond, you would think with a couple years of cap grooming and that stuff somebody would hire him to a GM role in a heartbeat.
I don't understand why anyone wants to speculate so much about professional allegiances,

I don't have any reason to believe Andersson is leaving the Wings. But acting like there's nothing on God's green Earth that could convince him to sort of seems like a dramatic overcompensation.

Why doesn't he jump overseas? Doesn't he own a fishing company and spend a lot of the year out on the boat? Or was that Rockstrom?

Why should he leave Sweden? He's probably got the kind of contacts he'll never develop in North America.

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07-06-2013, 05:23 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by ScottyBowman View Post
Relax people. You've turned Nill into some kind of superhero just like all the panic when Don Wadell left for the Thrashers. The Red Wings will move along. No need to worry.
Well I can certainly agree not to go overboard. But when you look at this Detroit team that gave the Cup winners all they could handle you see how the lion's share of the lineup came through drafting and development. So I am not really down with pretending the loss of Nill and McDonnell isn't a huge loss.

If you aren't concerned I have to question how much you really follow prospect development in Detroit. These guys both deserve a ton of credit.

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07-06-2013, 05:30 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
I don't understand why anyone wants to speculate so much about professional allegiances,

I don't have any reason to believe Andersson is leaving the Wings. But acting like there's nothing on God's green Earth that could convince him to sort of seems like a dramatic overcompensation.

Why doesn't he jump overseas? Doesn't he own a fishing company and spend a lot of the year out on the boat? Or was that Rockstrom?

Why should he leave Sweden? He's probably got the kind of contacts he'll never develop in North America.
Håkan was a fishing guide or similar if I recall, so that boat thing is probably accurate.

I sorta think Andersson would've crossed the pond a long time ago if he wanted to. Wings probably pay him well and he's got some commitments in Sweden too, win-win for him. If he wants to step down from scouting, he's one of the most respected hockey people in Sweden aswell.

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07-06-2013, 05:37 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
Håkan was a fishing guide or similar if I recall, so that boat thing is probably accurate.

I sorta think Andersson would've crossed the pond a long time ago if he wanted to. Wings probably pay him well and he's got some commitments in Sweden too, win-win for him. If he wants to step down from scouting, he's one of the most respected hockey people in Sweden aswell.
Isn't he on the board of one of the SEL teams?

My only point was a lot of people like to point out Hakan's and Nill's relationship. I am sure it is probably pretty good. But the point was Holland brought on Hakan at the urging of Rockstrom, he was in place before Nill left Ottawa. Guess RWN is right that I am jumping to a conclusion but I do think it is important that Andersson really hasn't showed any sort of commitment issues and has a very strong relationship with the organization and Holland. I put doubt as in it's my opinion, it is also my opinion Ilitch would probably match any offer made for him, I just don't see him ditching us for another organization unless it is for a better opportunity and it doesn't look like he is interested in doing much more than he already does.

One of the more famous arguments we have heard if I remember right is basically McDonnell and Andersson going back and forth on Markstrom versus McCollum. Could have been a different scout but if I remember right that was the key two scouts/players in that discussion.

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07-06-2013, 05:52 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by InjuredChoker View Post
Honestly, I would too.

Even back when Nill to Dallas came official.
Well then go, no one's making you stay here. Nill and the rest of his people are there for you in Dallas.

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07-06-2013, 05:55 PM
  #58
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I'm not too fussed, our drafting was overrated, maybe it's not such a bad thing.

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07-06-2013, 06:02 PM
  #59
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When Nill left it stood to reason that Nill's people would go with him at some point. McDonnell probably stayed on so as not to leave us floundering just before the draft; this may have been in place from the time they allowed Nill out of his contract to take the job in Dallas.
He had a pretty good draft, got a really skilled guy at 10th but the signings he's made haven't bowled me over and I hate the Loui Ericsson for Seguin trade.

But ok, Holland sucks, Nill is a genius and our franchise is doomed all because of Ken Holland. Sometimes this forum can be incredibly insightful while other times it's downright ridiculous. where is all the drafting credit Kenny gets every time a drafted player busts or every time we take a Landon Ferraro instead of Radar O'Reilly?

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07-06-2013, 06:07 PM
  #60
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Who is our head scout in the Q? Is it one of the guys we are promoting, seem to be drafting from there a lot more lately, kind of points to them trusting that scout.

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07-06-2013, 06:16 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winged Nut View Post
When Nill left it stood to reason that Nill's people would go with him at some point. McDonnell probably stayed on so as not to leave us floundering just before the draft; this may have been in place from the time they allowed Nill out of his contract to take the job in Dallas.
He had a pretty good draft, got a really skilled guy at 10th but the signings he's made haven't bowled me over and I hate the Loui Ericsson for Seguin trade.

But ok, Holland sucks, Nill is a genius and our franchise is doomed all because of Ken Holland. Sometimes this forum can be incredibly insightful while other times it's downright ridiculous. where is all the drafting credit Kenny gets every time a drafted player busts or every time we take a Landon Ferraro instead of Radar O'Reilly?
C'mon man, it's called paying attention and developing an opinion. Bryan Murray has proven himself to be a very, very good judge of talent. If you look at our roster on a team where Jim Nill and Joe McDonald drafted like 90% of the guys who were regular contributors where we gave Chicago all they could handle you have no problem giving them credit for the impressive job they have done. We can all point to draft picks who busted but when the vast majority of your team that has a 22 year playoff streak was drafted and developed by those guys you need to be a bit concerned about losing them.

This is just common sense. It's really simple. Will we get better guys to fill their spots? It's possible but only time will tell. Anyone outside of the organization who feels they can guarantee we will be better off is sipping some mighty fine Kool Aid.

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07-06-2013, 06:31 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
C'mon man, it's called paying attention and developing an opinion. Bryan Murray has proven himself to be a very, very good judge of talent. If you look at our roster on a team where Jim Nill and Joe McDonald drafted like 90% of the guys who were regular contributors where we gave Chicago all they could handle you have no problem giving them credit for the impressive job they have done. We can all point to draft picks who busted but when the vast majority of your team that has a 22 year playoff streak was drafted and developed by those guys you need to be a bit concerned about losing them.

This is just common sense. It's really simple. Will we get better guys to fill their spots? It's possible but only time will tell. Anyone outside of the organization who feels they can guarantee we will be better off is sipping some mighty fine Kool Aid.
They of course deserve some credit, but our OHL record is actually pretty sloppy, despite the improvement the last couple of years. 90% seems incredibly high.

Howard, USNTDP Hockey East
Zetterberg, Hakan
Datsyuk, Hakan
Franzen, Hakan
Kronwall, Hakan
Ericsson, Hakan
Filppula, Hakan
Cleary, drafted by another team
Sammy, another team
Cola, another team
Miller, another team
Abdelkader, USHL, USMNDP, CCHA
Eaves another team
Bert another team


Tatar, Nyquist overseas scouts.

Mrazek and Kindl were both told to be scouted extensively by our OHL scouts before the stepped foot on North American soil according to most reports, Fischer having heard about them before they ever crossed the pond.

McDonnell is an important guy he had say in a lot of these people. But 90%.

Even Helm and Quincey are WHL guys.

So big time OHL guys, most of whom we are excited about are prospects still and remain to be seen what they become.

Emmerton
Kindl
Mursak

Last two both had scouting done overseas if you read some reports.

Is that the crowd you are pimping Leach's importance to us for. Seems like an opportunity, even if it looks like he is finally getting the hang of it in the OHL with his last couple drafts.

The loss might hurt a lot, we also might find a guy with a better track record to be honest.

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07-06-2013, 06:34 PM
  #63
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Well Nill is the guy who runs the draft, right? Or was it McDonnell? My guess is that it was Nill so he gets credit for drafting so many guys who ended up on the roster for a team that is still highly competitive.

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07-06-2013, 06:38 PM
  #64
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Whoever does our scouting in the Q deserves a promotion. Oullete, Jurco, Frk, now Mantha. Great project picks from this guy.

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07-06-2013, 06:41 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Jimbo7200 View Post
Whoever does our scouting in the Q deserves a promotion. Oullete, Jurco, Frk, now Mantha. Great project picks from this guy.
Agree, we've drafted some really fine prospects from the Q over the past few seasons.

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07-06-2013, 06:47 PM
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If Holland and Devellano let Hakan walk away to Dallas then I'll be in panic mode. Until then, a scout or two leaving doesn't worry me. Look at the New England Patriots, they've been good for more than a decade and half of their front office staff and full turnover on Bill Belichick's coaching staff and they just keep on rolling right along.

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07-06-2013, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Well Nill is the guy who runs the draft, right? Or was it McDonnell? My guess is that it was Nill so he gets credit for drafting so many guys who ended up on the roster for a team that is still highly competitive.
I don't have a problem with that, it is a team effort and like you said the team might be weakened at this point. I appreciate what they did for us. A part of the development plan has been outlined by Holland and that message will continue to be constant. It was his belief that rushing people ruined them, something he says he learned in Adirondack.

Certainly we have a glowing track record of development. My only point was I am not sold that Leach is a world beater scout, in my opinion he was one of the weaker links throughout most of his tenure in Detroit in terms of our scouting department.

I also found the number of 90% to just be far too generous.

Nill and McDonnell are big losses, in my opinion despite a recent uptick in Leach's performance I see his leaving honestly as an opportunity for an upgrade if we play our cards right.

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07-06-2013, 06:52 PM
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McDonnell and Nill could check Hakan at that table in my opinion. What is important is we find the right balance. But I don't have a big problem with how this sets up depending on who goes into what places. In all likelihood Hakan's influence just got even larger at the draft. Nill and McDonnell could get together with Leach and overrule decisions, like when they pushed McCollum over Markstrom, how many of us enjoyed that? Hakan wanted us to trade up for Karlsson, but probably didn't have the influence to make it happen at the table. It is a sliding group, but it is hard to see how right now the first person Holland isn't looking to for answers isn't Hakan, who we should probably all agree is our best scouting mind and has the most sterling track record.

I don't want him to have full power, but the prospect of him having the most weight at the table outside of Holland is something I am pretty happy about.

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07-06-2013, 07:10 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by JackieTreehorn View Post
how serious are the Hakan rumors in that first post?

I believe we are starting to see the emperor has no clothes.

The prudent thing would have been to bump Holland up to before dementia allowed him run this thing into the ground.

Nill or Yzerman would have been preferable imo starting the year Yzerman got the Tampa job.
Yzerman is a terrible GM.

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07-06-2013, 07:13 PM
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This is the same McDonnell guy who blabbed to the press that the Wings were going to take a big forward in the draft this year, right? Stellar poker face there.

Yeah, not sweating it.

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07-06-2013, 07:23 PM
  #71
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Yzerman is a terrible GM.
and Holland?

We know what we got. A slow drip into mediocrity that gets worse every year and unwilling to takechances. Not what I like to see from my team.

I will take the unknown over that.

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07-06-2013, 07:24 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
C'mon man, it's called paying attention and developing an opinion. Bryan Murray has proven himself to be a very, very good judge of talent. If you look at our roster on a team where Jim Nill and Joe McDonald drafted like 90% of the guys who were regular contributors where we gave Chicago all they could handle you have no problem giving them credit for the impressive job they have done. We can all point to draft picks who busted but when the vast majority of your team that has a 22 year playoff streak was drafted and developed by those guys you need to be a bit concerned about losing them.

This is just common sense. It's really simple. Will we get better guys to fill their spots? It's possible but only time will tell. Anyone outside of the organization who feels they can guarantee we will be better off is sipping some mighty fine Kool Aid.
Yet when a draft or a pick does not go well suddenly it's Ken Holland who is the man at fault. I'm not denying our scouting and drafting guys have done an amazing job given our draft selection the past twenty or so years - given their success it's a no-brainer that other teams will target these guys for vacant management positions, like Nill and his guys in Dallas now. What irks me is how Dallas or any other franchise targeting and successfully luring Nill and these others is, somehow, Ken Holland's fault along with the poor draft picks the team has made or missed out on over the years. Really, how is this Ken Holland's fault?

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07-06-2013, 07:29 PM
  #73
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Now the sky is gonna fall.

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Old
07-06-2013, 07:40 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by JackieTreehorn View Post
and Holland?

We know what we got. A slow drip into mediocrity that gets worse every year and unwilling to takechances. Not what I like to see from my team.

I will take the unknown over that.
Cool keep enjoying the Lions I guess.

Taking the unknown over a future HHOF guy is always a great decision. This is as aggressive as Holland has been in an off-season in a little while, but lets not give him credit there I guess.

I will always take good proven front office management over anything else in sports. Holland fits the bill there, especially if you have the slightest bit of patience and reasonable expectations.

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Old
07-06-2013, 07:48 PM
  #75
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Hasn't North American scouting been mostly average? I don't find this a huge hit.

I'd even argue Dallas' old NA scouting team did as good or better. They have drafted a couple of elite wingers in later rounds.

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