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Phoenix XCVII: Forget it, Jake. It's Glendale.

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07-12-2013, 12:14 PM
  #601
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Originally Posted by kihekah19 View Post
The BOG may just feel that when THEIR commissioner stands before a crowd at a groundbreaking ceremony in a cotton field and assures said crowd that on that historic day the city and state are assured of thirty years of hockey in the desert, that such an assurance should be taken seriously?
Too bad Gary says the exact same thing where ever he puts a team, except when its in Canada and he threatens ( or strongly suggests ) that they need to sell out every game forever, or in his paraphrased words.. it won't work.

There is far more going on here than Bettman trying to keep his cotton field promise alive. Because for unknown reasons he will guarantee ~$20MM a year forever for the Coyotes. You threaten one city, then a few years later, start to hand out piles of money to another. Who does that and why?

Bettman is the commish of 30 teams and as such should treat all 30 teams equally. Yet he has implemented a class system based on his own beliefs. And people wonder why there is some dislike of him.

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07-12-2013, 12:19 PM
  #602
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Originally Posted by objectiveposter View Post
For those who are bashing Goldwater...they have already won. This deal is significantly better for Glendale compared to the Hulsizer deal. The arena management fees are similar... both were looking for around 15 mill a year... but RSE appears to be sharing more of the revenue streams with Glendale. The biggest factor is the financing of the team.. Goldwater didnt want Glendale to finance the 100 mill bond.. said it was the owners/nhl responsibility to buy the team..and not the taxpayers.

What ends up happening? The NHL and Fortress are now financing the deal. Goldwater saved Glendale taxpayers 100 million dollars.. not a bad victory for a tax payer watchdog group.

AND their little pr routine garnered them a windfall in donations!

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07-12-2013, 12:22 PM
  #603
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post

Bettman is the commish of 30 teams and as such should treat all 30 teams equally. Yet he has implemented a class system based on his own beliefs. And people wonder why there is some dislike of him.

Bettman is an employee of 30 teams and as such acts upon THEIR beliefs.

Peculiar guy, but no dummy this GB and the BOG knows it.... in fact did he not recently sign a nice little contract that exceeded the previous? Wonder why?

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07-12-2013, 12:23 PM
  #604
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Originally Posted by barneyg View Post
I don't understand where you're going with this, are you really surprised/disappointed the city doesn't get a cut of broadcasting revenues?

By the way, the definition you quoted ("Exclusive Team Revenues") exists to distinguish between Arena Manager "Operating Revenues" (what AM can and cannot collect as a party to this transaction, and what it must disclose in its annual budget to the city) and the Team's revenues, which do not have to be disclosed to the city.
DISAPPOINTED? I have absolutely nothing to gain or lose in this matter so why would i be disappointed, but more importantly, why would you care if I was?

Anyhew, guess it's okay to include non guaranteed revenue on the balance sheet, in order to increase the AMF, whereas guaranteed revenue, which would decrease the AMF, is a no no.

So, as long as the COG is good with that, all is good in the land of "debt and despair".

Edit to add: it's not that the COG would share in broadcasting revenues but maybe would have to pay less for the AMF.

edit again: Thought this over and I know what you're getting at ie the team revenue has nothing to do with the arena management fee so. So MOVE ON, nothing here of any relevance !


Last edited by enarwpg: 07-12-2013 at 03:39 PM.
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07-12-2013, 12:54 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Too bad Gary says the exact same thing where ever he puts a team, except when its in Canada and he threatens ( or strongly suggests ) that they need to sell out every game forever, or in his paraphrased words.. it won't work.

There is far more going on here than Bettman trying to keep his cotton field promise alive. Because for unknown reasons he will guarantee ~$20MM a year forever for the Coyotes. You threaten one city, then a few years later, start to hand out piles of money to another. Who does that and why?

Bettman is the commish of 30 teams and as such should treat all 30 teams equally. Yet he has implemented a class system based on his own beliefs. And people wonder why there is some dislike of him.

Very true and sad that cities that have fans willing to pay top dollar get threatened with losing a team if attendance isn't maintained at a high level and with Phoenix it's "do the best you can and the NHL will subside you to the Maximum level"

As for Betman working for the BoG. Bettman is a Puppet Master and I have no doubt through lies promises and manipulation he gets the majority of Governors to follow him.


Last edited by Donwood: 07-12-2013 at 12:57 PM. Reason: Addition
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07-12-2013, 12:55 PM
  #606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Too bad Gary says the exact same thing where ever he puts a team, except when its in Canada and he threatens ( or strongly suggests ) that they need to sell out every game forever, or in his paraphrased words.. it won't work.

There is far more going on here than Bettman trying to keep his cotton field promise alive. Because for unknown reasons he will guarantee ~$20MM a year forever for the Coyotes. You threaten one city, then a few years later, start to hand out piles of money to another. Who does that and why?

Bettman is the commish of 30 teams and as such should treat all 30 teams equally. Yet he has implemented a class system based on his own beliefs. And people wonder why there is some dislike of him.
The other 29 own the Coyotes at this moment.

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07-12-2013, 01:04 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by objectiveposter View Post
For those who are bashing Goldwater...they have already won. This deal is significantly better for Glendale compared to the Hulsizer deal. The arena management fees are similar... both were looking for around 15 mill a year... but RSE appears to be sharing more of the revenue streams with Glendale. The biggest factor is the financing of the team.. Goldwater didnt want Glendale to finance the 100 mill bond.. said it was the owners/nhl responsibility to buy the team..and not the taxpayers.

What ends up happening? The NHL and Fortress are now financing the deal. Goldwater saved Glendale taxpayers 100 million dollars.. not a bad victory for a tax payer watchdog group.

I know I keep bringing this up, but were the requests from Moyes et al all that bad in retrospect? All they wanted was $14 MM to keep doing what they were doing. COG has spent $50 MM since then, and committed to roughly what the original request was for... and maybe this never needed to happen? If we want to apportion blame, maybe start back in 2006 and 2007 and what went wrong between the league, an owner and COG. Impressively (and sadistically) exploited by Ballsillie and Rodier.

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07-12-2013, 01:05 PM
  #608
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Originally Posted by Donwood View Post

Very true and sad that cities that have fans willing to pay top dollar get threatened with losing a team if attendance isn't maintained at a high level and with Phoenix it's "do the best you can and the NHL will subside you to the Maximum level"

As for Betman working for the BoG. Bettman is a Puppet Master and I have no doubt through lies promises and manipulation he gets the majority of Governors to follow him.
Are you saying that the BOG is comprised of sheep or that they are gulllible?

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07-12-2013, 01:06 PM
  #609
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Originally Posted by objectiveposter View Post
What ends up happening? The NHL and Fortress are now financing the deal. Goldwater saved Glendale taxpayers 100 million dollars.. not a bad victory for a tax payer watchdog group.
Doesn't mean Glendale is protected from losing millions of dollars per year however. The deal is still a very risky one, just not one that GWI can contest.

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07-12-2013, 01:11 PM
  #610
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
The other 29 own the Coyotes at this moment.
They do indeed, but with a small coterie of power brokers calling the shots, by committee, seemingly little consensus as witness the dysfunction & general lack of decisiveness on this file since 2008 if not earlier. Beyond obtuse & arrogant to have held the line on price & terms for 4yrs, only to turn around when their bluffs about options are about to be called (Gary during the Moyes BK with "all kinds of local interest in buying the Coyotes" - evaporated, never appearing) and essentially facilitate & enable a deal that discounts the team by $85M with a loan, throwing the rule book & common sense right out the window. As recently as 10-12 months ago I had some, not much but at least some empathy, sympathy & respect for the NHL, but not now, not any longer. Not after the Lockout & certainly not after this. So far beyond the pale, hypocritical, convoluted as to be what exactly I dont even know.

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07-12-2013, 01:14 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by kihekah19 View Post
Are you saying that the BOG is comprised of sheep or that they are gulllible?
It's doubtful they engage in any independent research that doesn't directly relate to their individual clubs, thus they can only accept the information that they are given.

Bettman was hired as the watcher of their collective interests, but you can see how someone unscrupulous can exploit that.

Who watches the watcher?

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07-12-2013, 01:16 PM
  #612
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Originally Posted by kihekah19 View Post
Perhaps it's the very integrity that you question? The BOG may just feel that when THEIR commissioner stands before a crowd at a groundbreaking ceremony in a cotton field and assures said crowd that on that historic day the city and state are assured of thirty years of hockey in the desert, that such an assurance should be taken seriously?

just one of many possible answers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kihekah19 View Post
Bettman is an employee of 30 teams and as such acts upon THEIR beliefs.

Peculiar guy, but no dummy this GB and the BOG knows it.... in fact did he not recently sign a nice little contract that exceeded the previous? Wonder why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kihekah19 View Post
Are you saying that the BOG is comprised of sheep or that they are gulllible?
Your quotes seem to indicate that it is justifiable and accepted that Bettman/BOG treat markets differently and Canadians in smaller centers such as Winnipeg and QC just shut up and deal with it.

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07-12-2013, 01:16 PM
  #613
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I know I keep bringing this up, but were the requests from Moyes et al all that bad in retrospect? All they wanted was $14 MM to keep doing what they were doing. COG has spent $50 MM since then, and committed to roughly what the original request was for... and maybe this never needed to happen? If we want to apportion blame, maybe start back in 2006 and 2007 and what went wrong between the league, an owner and COG. Impressively (and sadistically) exploited by Ballsillie and Rodier.

Not bad at all, in fact when you consider how Ol' Jerry went about running the team (his trusted advisor being a H.S dropout), recent history gives perspective on just how much of his own money he was putting into this team.

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07-12-2013, 01:16 PM
  #614
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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
It's doubtful they engage in any independent research that doesn't directly relate to their individual clubs, thus they can only accept the information that they are given.

Bettman was hired as the watcher of their collective interests, but you can see how someone unscrupulous can exploit that.

Who watches the watcher?
The turtles. duhhh.

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07-12-2013, 01:21 PM
  #615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
It's doubtful they engage in any independent research that doesn't directly relate to their individual clubs, thus they can only accept the information that they are given.

Bettman was hired as the watcher of their collective interests, but you can see how someone unscrupulous can exploit that.

Who watches the watcher?

Yes, but there stuck with it now. Once the league made the decision to nix Ballsillie (and the BOG did unanimously vote him as an owner down) and then to buy the team (also BOG approved).... $140 MM NHL dollars committed. Sure, it's a line of credit, but it's the 29 other owners that ultimately underwrite that figure. It's their shared funds at first and then 29 cash calls if it ever came to such a point.

You can see why they would be willing to 'loan' themselves money and divert revenue transfer/sharing money to the team they own. It keeps in the 'shared' realm and maybe they don't have to write individual checks down the line.

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07-12-2013, 01:22 PM
  #616
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If sharing maximum revenue is what it takes to get the coyotes sold then isn't that revenue share better than the other teams owning the yotes and subsidizing its losses? I mean it seems like the yotes are going to be a money suck to them either way but maybe with the sale its a little less? That's all I can figure.

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07-12-2013, 01:25 PM
  #617
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Originally Posted by wpgallday1960 View Post
Your quotes seem to indicate that it is justifiable and accepted that Bettman/BOG treat markets differently and Canadians in smaller centers such as Winnipeg and QC just shut up and deal with it.

Apparently your neighbors (based on sth's, price paid and wait list data) agree.

Don't get me wrong, I don't for a minute claim that this is fair and equitable. There is a reason however for the current situation. A reason that all here ponder and none here know.

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07-12-2013, 01:26 PM
  #618
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Originally Posted by kihekah19 View Post
Not bad at all, in fact when you consider how Ol' Jerry went about running the team (his trusted advisor being a H.S dropout), recent history gives perspective on just how much of his own money he was putting into this team.

I personally never doubted he was losing a ton of money, and maybe only a small portion of that was due to incompetence. The results and losses in the hands of greater minds and professionals since that time have never managed to come up with anything that is less than what Moyes wanted. He got duped by Ellman, invested in real estate that went badly, took the team as security and lost a couple hundred million, give or take tens of millions here and there.

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07-12-2013, 01:37 PM
  #619
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Originally Posted by kihekah19 View Post
Are you saying that the BOG is comprised of sheep or that they are gulllible?
I'm saying Bettman gets his way in the same manner Glendale voted to subsidize the Coyotes, all the fear of boarding up the arena and westgate. There certainly are outspoken members of the BoG but Bettman keeps everyone in line by promises or threats of what will happen if they don't follow his advice.

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07-12-2013, 01:44 PM
  #620
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Alright, here goes.... after much prodding I will give my take on the BOG's reasoning for what has unfolded.

The reason I've kept this to myself is because frankly it's really just not very good business acumen, but you've got to consider that we are dealing with a board full of egos. Also, this is my take and it's really not worth an ant hill of beans!

The NHL and it's BOG's so despise Ballsille and what he did that they are willing to go to such lenghts to prove the point that no upstart that is not one of their own will get away with such shenanigans, now or in the future. They look at the 85 mil. as a means of keeping their money safe, in the hopes that it can be recouped through the current deal, or future relocation.

Is this good business? Short term - no. Long term - only time will tell.

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07-12-2013, 01:55 PM
  #621
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I personally never doubted he was losing a ton of money, and maybe only a small portion of that was due to incompetence. The results and losses in the hands of greater minds and professionals since that time have never managed to come up with anything that is less than what Moyes wanted.
Ah, but up until this deal they have always wanted more. To me this shows one of two things, either Ol' Jerry and new ownership were losing / will lose more than the agreed upon figure, or the the "greater minds" have shown that with better mgmnt. the losses can be far less.

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07-12-2013, 02:46 PM
  #622
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I know I keep bringing this up, but were the requests from Moyes et al all that bad in retrospect? All they wanted was $14 MM to keep doing what they were doing. COG has spent $50 MM since then, and committed to roughly what the original request was for... and maybe this never needed to happen? If we want to apportion blame, maybe start back in 2006 and 2007 and what went wrong between the league, an owner and COG. Impressively (and sadistically) exploited by Ballsillie and Rodier.
If you believe the "urban legend", yes it was. At least to Beasley it was a "bad request".

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07-12-2013, 03:28 PM
  #623
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And in other news...

Civil rights leader calls for council investigation

To quote:

"Arizona civil rights activist Rev. Jarrett Maupin and Councilmember Norma Alvarez held a press conference July 11 asking the attorney general to investigate if Glendale City Council violated the state’s gift clause.

In the letter sent to the attorney general, they argue that, “It has come to our attention that individual members of the Glendale City Council may have undeclared conflicts of interest, financial ties, and the expectation of gain in regards to the financing of re-election efforts related to this recent agreement.”"

Source: http://www.glendalestar.com/news/art...a4bcf887a.html

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07-12-2013, 04:23 PM
  #624
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Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
And in other news...

Civil rights leader calls for council investigation

To quote:

"Arizona civil rights activist Rev. Jarrett Maupin and Councilmember Norma Alvarez held a press conference July 11 asking the attorney general to investigate if Glendale City Council violated the state’s gift clause.

In the letter sent to the attorney general, they argue that, “It has come to our attention that individual members of the Glendale City Council may have undeclared conflicts of interest, financial ties, and the expectation of gain in regards to the financing of re-election efforts related to this recent agreement.”"

Source: http://www.glendalestar.com/news/art...a4bcf887a.html
I take no issue with their cause. I just find it interesting that Maupin is discribed as a "civil rights activist". Check out his background. There are more colorful words one could use to best discribe Maupin. This coming for a progessive by the way....

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07-12-2013, 04:48 PM
  #625
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I take no issue with their cause. I just find it interesting that Maupin is discribed as a "civil rights activist". Check out his background. There are more colorful words one could use to best discribe Maupin. This coming for a progessive by the way....
Sounds more like a fool's errand to me, but if they want to try to push the cart uphill, who am I to say anything...

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