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Phoenix XCVII: Forget it, Jake. It's Glendale.

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Old
07-14-2013, 07:00 PM
  #726
Glacial
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Originally Posted by hisgirlfriday View Post
Is part of the obsession with keeping the Yotes in Glendale that the NHL is afraid if they let the Coyotes fail/leave that taxpayers will stop subsidizing stadiums for NHL teams with the now reasonable expectation that you can shell that money out for a team and they still might dump you in a few years?

Can anyone think of another example where taxpayers stepped up to give a pro franchise a brand new stadium/arena and they still left within 5-10 years?
But this is also a suburban arena. There's only a handful of other ones. Anaheim (NHL, MLB), Sunrise (NHL), Auburn Hills (NBA). I'm ignoring football arenas and Arlington, TX. Suburban venues are far tricker for major league sports. I think it was a mess of a situation (onerous lease in Phoenix, shady developer IIRC, Scottsdale turning them down). Glendale was a questionable location back in 2003. Anaheim works because of the high population within Orange County, Arlington works because of the geography of Dallas & Fort Worth. Sunrise was a case of the county building the arena and getting the team and the team being key to the arena management deal, the arena being lucrative (26th most ticket sales in the world in 2011), so as long as the team doesn't tank so much, it turns the whole arena event booking enterprise unprofitable, the team will stay in Sunrise. I don't think Glendale might set a precedent because it's just a mindboggling mess. The NHL, the city has tried for years and the team still isn't profitable there despite so many different owners or schemes. I think what people might take-away from it is the arena never should have built to begin with not the NHL can't be trusted with being committed to a market.

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07-14-2013, 07:19 PM
  #727
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But this is also a suburban arena. There's only a handful of other ones. Anaheim (NHL, MLB), Sunrise (NHL), Auburn Hills (NBA). I'm ignoring football arenas and Arlington, TX. Suburban venues are far tricker for major league sports. I think it was a mess of a situation (onerous lease in Phoenix, shady developer IIRC, Scottsdale turning them down). Glendale was a questionable location back in 2003. Anaheim works because of the high population within Orange County, Arlington works because of the geography of Dallas & Fort Worth. Sunrise was a case of the county building the arena and getting the team and the team being key to the arena management deal, the arena being lucrative (26th most ticket sales in the world in 2011), so as long as the team doesn't tank so much, it turns the whole arena event booking enterprise unprofitable, the team will stay in Sunrise. I don't think Glendale might set a precedent because it's just a mindboggling mess. The NHL, the city has tried for years and the team still isn't profitable there despite so many different owners or schemes. I think what people might take-away from it is the arena never should have built to begin with not the NHL can't be trusted with being committed to a market.
I know it's in Canada and all these sorts of things but you should add Kanata, Ontario to that list.

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07-14-2013, 07:35 PM
  #728
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What are the chances they turn this thing around and the Yotes stay in five years?

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07-14-2013, 07:36 PM
  #729
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I know it's in Canada and all these sorts of things but you should add Kanata, Ontario to that list.
Yep. Good point barney. Urban vs Suburban. Dynamic much the same be it Canada or the US really. Urban location, Eugene there finding himself up against it, ex-wife & alligators nipping at his butt. Could very well go Nuclear. Wouldnt take bets on that mans patience, or lack thereof.

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07-14-2013, 07:57 PM
  #730
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Letter to the Arizona Attorney General

For your reading pleasure...

Attached is the hand-delivered letter (from the news conference reported) to the Arizona Attorney General to investigate the actions of the Glendale City Council and their voting for the agreement with the RSE/IA.


Last edited by Llama19: 08-03-2013 at 01:33 PM.
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07-14-2013, 08:02 PM
  #731
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What are the chances they turn this thing around and the Yotes stay in five years?
Zero.

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07-14-2013, 08:14 PM
  #732
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For your reading pleasure...
Do you anticipate the AG acting upon this complaint prior to the closing date of August 4th? And what of the call to action pursuant to a Referendum? I hear anecdotally that Ken Jones is out there, parked in front of the library, alone but for one other person, 90% of the traffic either ignoring the poor man or if paying attention at all disinclined to sign his petition. It doesnt really appear that the Cops, Firefighters, Civil Servants who as a result of cuts will now have to pay for everything from prescription drugs to dental appointments could care less. Oblivious. Dumped on, having to deal with it, resigned to the fact. Goldwater's signalled they have no intention of pursuing the issue, the matter. Im afraid whatever call to action may have been trumpeted is in fact falling on apathetic if not outright deaf ears Llama. Maupin's got somer serious credibility issues, as does Jones. Rather a case more of Don Quixote & Sancho Panza than Bob Woodward & Carl Bernstein.

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07-14-2013, 08:32 PM
  #733
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Do you anticipate the AG acting upon this complaint prior to the closing date of August 4th? And what of the call to action pursuant to a Referendum? I hear anecdotally that Ken Jones is out there, parked in front of the library, alone but for one other person, 90% of the traffic either ignoring the poor man or if paying attention at all disinclined to sign his petition. It doesnt really appear that the Cops, Firefighters, Civil Servants who as a result of cuts will now have to pay for everything from prescription drugs to dental appointments could care less. Oblivious. Dumped on, having to deal with it, resigned to the fact. Goldwater's signalled they have no intention of pursuing the issue, the matter. Im afraid whatever call to action may have been trumpeted is in fact falling on apathetic if not outright deaf ears Llama. Maupin's got somer serious credibility issues, as does Jones. Rather a case more of Don Quixote & Sancho Panza than Bob Woodward & Carl Bernstein.
At this point, much disinformation going around, people goin' crazy, taking pictures, Keystone cops-like, 1984/Big Brother stuff, too.

Only the parties directly connected can tell you for sure, and most are not talking during the pending 'investigation(s)' of the many accusations...

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07-14-2013, 08:48 PM
  #734
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What are the chances they turn this thing around and the Yotes stay in five years?
I would like to hope for the best.

I've always thought that a good owner with deep pockets and a lot of patience who is in for the long haul could do very well sewing up the Greater Phoenix market. Even better if it were someone local with deep roots in the community. In that case, this team could be a gold mine. It's unpredictable as to when things turn around, but it could turn on a dime, and as far as I'm concerned there's no reason that couldn't happen within five years.

The trouble with this deal is these owners don't appear to be deep- pocketed and in for the long haul. They don't have roots in the community. Most importantly, they are heavily laden with debt, having leveraged this purchase to the nth degree.

Despite all that, you never know, and I would just wish them all the best. The people of Glendale deserve a successful outcome with all they have invested in this franchise.

Besides that, it beats me as to why anyone thinks this is a portable franchise. If it doesn't work in Glendale, why would the NHL not demand it's pound of flesh for a transfer of venue? If the Clowns have to pay all their debts and a transfer fee as well, I don't know how they would actually make any dough after losing $50,000,000. That's a lot of zeros.

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07-14-2013, 09:03 PM
  #735
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Only the parties directly connected can tell you for sure, and most are not talking during the pending 'investigation(s)' of the many accusations...
Fair enough. We have yet to read anything from AzCentral, any of the Valleys papers, even regionally that seriously excoriates the COG Council Members who voted up this abomination of a deal, be it from The Editorial Staff or individual reporters. More humorous anecdotal jibes than actual facts, y'know, like demanding to see SMG & Colangelo's bids. Breaking down the numbers. Wondering where RSE's Business Plans at. What their relationship will be with Global-Spectrum & Rojo Catering etcetera. Its like their all as stunned as we are here at hf. That this is even real, happening. Completely flys in the face of every precept the NHL itself has pursuant to the purchase of club, and a moderately healthy one at that. George Gosbee appears to have acquired this team for $35M. What does that do to your franchise values league wide Mr.Bettman? Why would you place a city of less than 300,000 in jeopardy enabling a sale like this whereby (openly admitted on-air) subsidies are required through AMF's triple the going rate? WTF is wrong with Clint Bolocks & Darcy at the GWI that a smoking gun isnt enough to get them off their lazy silver spoon fed ***** and do something actually constructive instead of messing around with school boards? On & on. Absurd.

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07-14-2013, 09:04 PM
  #736
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Do you anticipate the AG acting upon this complaint prior to the closing date of August 4th? And what of the call to action pursuant to a Referendum? I hear anecdotally that Ken Jones is out there, parked in front of the library, alone but for one other person, 90% of the traffic either ignoring the poor man or if paying attention at all disinclined to sign his petition. It doesnt really appear that the Cops, Firefighters, Civil Servants who as a result of cuts will now have to pay for everything from prescription drugs to dental appointments could care less. Oblivious. Dumped on, having to deal with it, resigned to the fact. Goldwater's signalled they have no intention of pursuing the issue, the matter. Im afraid whatever call to action may have been trumpeted is in fact falling on apathetic if not outright deaf ears Llama. Maupin's got somer serious credibility issues, as does Jones. Rather a case more of Don Quixote & Sancho Panza than Bob Woodward & Carl Bernstein.
I've read the letter and I think it's Looney Tunes. There will be no investigation nor any referendum, in my opinion.

If there was any subterfuge, the subterfugers will surely have set aside enough axle grease to take care of the higher ups in the state Capitol. The only way such a complaint would go anywhere is if in passing out cake someone didn't leave a big enough slice for the folks upstairs, and that would be unthinkable. I noticed that proponents of the deal include a former AG who would certainly know which doors to knock on.

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07-14-2013, 09:16 PM
  #737
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Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
For your reading pleasure...

Attached is the hand-delivered letter (from the news conference reported) to the Arizona Attorney General to investigate the actions of the Glendale City Council and their voting for the agreement with the RSE/IA.
Reading through their letter it seems rather flimsy in my opinion. If that's the best argument they could make the AG isn't going to intervene in any meaningful way.

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07-14-2013, 09:17 PM
  #738
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If there was any subterfuge, the subterfugers will surely have set aside enough axle grease to take care of the higher ups on the state Capitol.
Well sure. And lets be specific. Former Attorney General Grant Woods is a paid shill for RSE. Connections at the State Capitol, the DNC & Republican Parties at local, state & federal levels up the ying-yang. Professional Lobbyist. What do the naysayers have? A convicted felon of a Preacherman, with jokes about his ordination coming by way of a matchbook cover & a correspondence school in Little Rock that almost no one in the Valley of the Sun takes even remotely seriously. Hell. Little Richard, Good Golly Miss Molly, ordained Mork. Not hard to do apparently. An ounce of charisma, some charm & street smarts, pretty much good to go... mind ye', I prefer the more extreme type of Reverend. Snake Handlers. Acid House...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hhzAgAzSr4

... which I can only stand for about 33 seconds.


Last edited by Killion: 07-14-2013 at 09:29 PM.
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07-14-2013, 09:27 PM
  #739
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Money Making Machine based on the deal/terms. Think theyd wanna share it with a few locals. Id call that downright selfish TL...
Indeed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
For your reading pleasure...

Attached is the hand-delivered letter (from the news conference reported) to the Arizona Attorney General to investigate the actions of the Glendale City Council and their voting for the agreement with the RSE/IA.
Does anybody actually have a picture of Stormin' Norma standing up? Because I'm really curious...

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07-14-2013, 09:34 PM
  #740
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Does anybody actually have a picture of Stormin' Norma standing up? Because I'm really curious...
Fraid I dont TL. But Im sure youve seen the movie Throw Momma from the Train? The character actress Anne Ramsey?

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07-14-2013, 09:44 PM
  #741
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Reading through their letter it seems rather flimsy in my opinion. If that's the best argument they could make the AG isn't going to intervene in any meaningful way.
Thought the same thing. That's kind of a dud of a letter with almost zero substance. AG would likely put that one in his " circular file"

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07-14-2013, 09:48 PM
  #742
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Do you anticipate the AG acting upon this complaint prior to the closing date of August 4th? And what of the call to action pursuant to a Referendum? I hear anecdotally that Ken Jones is out there, parked in front of the library, alone but for one other person, 90% of the traffic either ignoring the poor man or if paying attention at all disinclined to sign his petition. It doesnt really appear that the Cops, Firefighters, Civil Servants who as a result of cuts will now have to pay for everything from prescription drugs to dental appointments could care less. Oblivious. Dumped on, having to deal with it, resigned to the fact. Goldwater's signalled they have no intention of pursuing the issue, the matter. Im afraid whatever call to action may have been trumpeted is in fact falling on apathetic if not outright deaf ears Llama. Maupin's got somer serious credibility issues, as does Jones. Rather a case more of Don Quixote & Sancho Panza than Bob Woodward & Carl Bernstein.
It goes back to a point that made in a previous post about the locals being apathetic to political chatter. They just go to work and live their lives. It will be interesting to see if there is an outcry during next years budget, but I doubt it. This deal is done and there will be hockey in the desert for the foreseeable future.

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07-14-2013, 10:11 PM
  #743
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It goes back to a point that made in a previous post about the locals being apathetic to political chatter. They just go to work and live their lives. It will be interesting to see if there is an outcry during next years budget, but I doubt it. This deal is done and there will be hockey in the desert for the foreseeable future.
Ya. And its wide-ranging. Not something unique to Glendale. It seems until theres a full-on meltdown, no one really pays any attention. Were just to busy living our lives, paying the mortgage, rent, food on the table or whatever. I dont know, the Kennedys, Trudeau in Canada included, if we've ever really had any Prime Ministers, Presidents, Senators or Premiers, Mayors or Municipal Leaders of the sort We The People really do deserve in any era, at any time. Ronald Reagan, Ike, Churchill, bunch of good ones, just inconsistent decade to decade, since time immemorial. Here however we do in fact have a real potential for harm, that the COG may have put its own citizenry in harm. Already stretched with Emergency Services, wait times on 911 calls extended, this is a serious gamble the cities taken & the fact of the matter is its with peoples lives, and Im being as politely serious about this as I can be without going hyperbolic. This has become, absolutely and make no mistake, a now deadly game. Revolving Fire Station Closures. No money for fleet maintenance on their 9 Pumpers & Ladder Trucks. Fuel virtually rationed. Layoffs... then theres the EMT's, the Cops. Gets even worse. Just a matter of time, and God Forbid, before possibly were looking at the Mother of All Class Action Lawsuits.

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07-14-2013, 10:40 PM
  #744
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I know it's in Canada and all these sorts of things but you should add Kanata, Ontario to that list.
D'oh! I forgot about that. And I *just* read the article about it's origin too. Shame on me .

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07-14-2013, 10:45 PM
  #745
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Do you anticipate the AG acting upon this complaint prior to the closing date of August 4th? And what of the call to action pursuant to a Referendum? I hear anecdotally that Ken Jones is out there, parked in front of the library, alone but for one other person, 90% of the traffic either ignoring the poor man or if paying attention at all disinclined to sign his petition. It doesnt really appear that the Cops, Firefighters, Civil Servants who as a result of cuts will now have to pay for everything from prescription drugs to dental appointments could care less. Oblivious. Dumped on, having to deal with it, resigned to the fact. Goldwater's signalled they have no intention of pursuing the issue, the matter. Im afraid whatever call to action may have been trumpeted is in fact falling on apathetic if not outright deaf ears Llama. Maupin's got somer serious credibility issues, as does Jones. Rather a case more of Don Quixote & Sancho Panza than Bob Woodward & Carl Bernstein.
If that's true, then the town's slogan should be
Glendale: Where no damns are given
or
Glendale: Home of Denial River, frozen over of course.
or
Glendale: Skating on thin ice for [X] years now. (where [X] is a changeable number)

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I would like to hope for the best.

I've always thought that a good owner with deep pockets and a lot of patience who is in for the long haul could do very well sewing up the Greater Phoenix market. Even better if it were someone local with deep roots in the community. In that case, this team could be a gold mine. It's unpredictable as to when things turn around, but it could turn on a dime, and as far as I'm concerned there's no reason that couldn't happen within five years.

The trouble with this deal is these owners don't appear to be deep- pocketed and in for the long haul. They don't have roots in the community. Most importantly, they are heavily laden with debt, having leveraged this purchase to the nth degree.

Despite all that, you never know, and I would just wish them all the best. The people of Glendale deserve a successful outcome with all they have invested in this franchise.

Besides that, it beats me as to why anyone thinks this is a portable franchise. If it doesn't work in Glendale, why would the NHL not demand it's pound of flesh for a transfer of venue? If the Clowns have to pay all their debts and a transfer fee as well, I don't know how they would actually make any dough after losing $50,000,000. That's a lot of zeros.
Deep-pocketed? Their pockets are a trompe l'oeil in fabric


Last edited by Glacial: 07-14-2013 at 10:47 PM. Reason: added
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07-14-2013, 10:48 PM
  #746
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D'oh! I forgot about that. And I *just* read the article about it's origin too. Shame on me .
Theres a thread here on Melnyks difficulties, urban-suburban, his desires to build a casino etc. Perfectly reasonable but for the Ontario Lottery Corporation & local politics. As it relates to Glendale some interesting parallels, as surely if the Tohono Band were permitted to build their complex in the area it would provide more than enough of a panacea to the City, Westgate. Big mistake for the previous Council (IMO) to fight them tooth & nail, dropping tens of millions in legal fee's along the way. No, I dont like the way the Band went about it, secretly buying up land under numbered companies & shells, but still. Deal with it already. Easy enough to make that a win win.

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07-14-2013, 11:17 PM
  #747
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Fair enough. We have yet to read anything from AzCentral, any of the Valleys papers, even regionally that seriously excoriates the COG Council Members who voted up this abomination of a deal, be it from The Editorial Staff or individual reporters. More humorous anecdotal jibes than actual facts, y'know, like demanding to see SMG & Colangelo's bids. Breaking down the numbers. Wondering where RSE's Business Plans at. What their relationship will be with Global-Spectrum & Rojo Catering etcetera. Its like their all as stunned as we are here at hf. That this is even real, happening. Completely flys in the face of every precept the NHL itself has pursuant to the purchase of club, and a moderately healthy one at that. George Gosbee appears to have acquired this team for $35M. What does that do to your franchise values league wide Mr.Bettman? Why would you place a city of less than 300,000 in jeopardy enabling a sale like this whereby (openly admitted on-air) subsidies are required through AMF's triple the going rate? WTF is wrong with Clint Bolocks & Darcy at the GWI that a smoking gun isnt enough to get them off their lazy silver spoon fed ***** and do something actually constructive instead of messing around with school boards? On & on. Absurd.
The AZ Repugnant (as it is referred to locally) has had various editorials/blogs but no real 'investigative' deep throat type stuff.

I tend to agree with others opinions about general Glendale citizen apathy, such as Glacial's statement "the town's slogan should be Glendale: Where no damns are given."

Southern market, indeed...

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07-14-2013, 11:33 PM
  #748
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The AZ Repugnant (as it is referred to locally) has had various editorials/blogs but no real 'investigative' deep throat type stuff..
No one really has though Llama because none of the actors in this play have ever really spoken, off the record or on. Most telling was perhaps Jerry Reinsdorfs comment of several years ago, that "its a wonder they get anything done in Glendale" but there, some self interest, far from being truly objective. I cant think of a single municipality, State, Provincial or Federal authority thats moved with the same speed as Glendale, quickly, with so much money, the complexities of various deals having been tabled. Reputedly 90 days from Ellmans initial pitch to money deposited. Not without precedent, UofP Stadium already existent but still. Thats damn fast, and he providing next to nothing in the way of bona-fides'. Youd think people would learn from that no? Yet here we are again. Le Blanc "guaranteeing" chasms crossed, bridges built. Fool me once yes? Or has the turnover been such that yesterdays lessons are forgotten?

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07-15-2013, 01:10 AM
  #749
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No one really has though Llama because none of the actors in this play have ever really spoken, off the record or on. Most telling was perhaps Jerry Reinsdorfs comment of several years ago, that "its a wonder they get anything done in Glendale" but there, some self interest, far from being truly objective. I cant think of a single municipality, State, Provincial or Federal authority thats moved with the same speed as Glendale, quickly, with so much money, the complexities of various deals having been tabled. Reputedly 90 days from Ellmans initial pitch to money deposited. Not without precedent, UofP Stadium already existent but still. Thats damn fast, and he providing next to nothing in the way of bona-fides'. Youd think people would learn from that no? Yet here we are again. Le Blanc "guaranteeing" chasms crossed, bridges built. Fool me once yes? Or has the turnover been such that yesterdays lessons are forgotten?
Peoples moan about government acting slower than snail all the time yet they rarely realize that the alternative is even more mess up. Glendale is the perfect example they never made a major decision relating to Jobbing and the NHL that was carefully considered or even properly debated. It always in a rush at the end of a session and with a gun pointed to their heads. Well you reap what you sown it not the first city to go broke because taxpayers elected naive or dishonest peoples and it won't be the last. This the lesson I learned from this mess always keep an eye on your local government. Because the local level is usually where the fail politician go roaming and pillaging.

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07-15-2013, 02:00 AM
  #750
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Because the local level is usually where the fail politician go roaming and pillaging.
They do this on their way up the ladder, then they do it on their way down from Provincial, State & Federal Politics my dear madhi. We get them climbing up, then falling down. Right now in Montreal, Denis Coderre running for Mayor. He of Shane Doan Blasphemy huh? Sued for $450,000. Total idiot. As Daniel 007 Craig says, "politicians, all of them, total ****heads". Until I heard him say that, just another jack punk piece a crap stunt man like Jason Stratham and not even an actor.

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