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Phoenix XCVII: Forget it, Jake. It's Glendale.

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Old
07-07-2013, 12:59 PM
  #101
kihekah19
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Originally Posted by Donwood View Post
Don't count on it, RSE may not close and the audit etc, may show the garbage going on behind the scenes in Glendale.


You misunderstand. I'm certainly not counting on anything, the fact is that on several occasions the GCC has approved what many have said are questionable agreements..... for some reason.

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07-07-2013, 01:07 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by kihekah19 View Post
The only thing that matters is the consistent approval of various lease agreements by the GCC.

The FACT is that the GCC has time and time again approved agreements that prove beyond a doubt that the elected officials (be it the new or old) are convinced that the future is better for their constituents with the franchise remaining.
Absolutely true.

I did find it interesting that for the most two recent agreements (Jamison's and RSE's), the split was 4-3, with the Mayor opposing and the Acting City Manager (two different ones) essentially recommending against the deal.

It's also pertinent that city council members (including the former mayor), indicated that they might not have supported previous deals had they not been misled by the City Manager and his staff.

It's hardly a slam dunk proposition politically and administratively.

Having said that, as a hockey fan, if I were living in Glendale I would certainly support this current deal. My personal perspective is that it is well worth several million dollars a year in public subsidy to retain an NHL hockey team for my entertainment and quality of life.

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07-07-2013, 01:17 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by kihekah19 View Post
You misunderstand. I'm certainly not counting on anything, the fact is that on several occasions the GCC has approved what many have said are questionable agreements..... for some reason.
Kihekah,
I disagree with you on many things.

1) You apparently believe CoG is financially better off with Coyotes at any cost. I believe there is a limit to that, and that this agreement, and many others, are beyond the limit.

2) You apparently have confidence in the reasoning at City Hall. I do not.

However, I will agree to this:

The fact is that GCC has agreed many times to lease structures to keep the team there. That is definitely fact. It's also fact that that is the only thing that really matters.

The future is speculation.

I like Bowers' take on this: The choice for the GCC was one of risk. How much financial risk is the GCC willing to take on behalf of the city for the purpose of keeping the team, and perhaps enjoying a development and tax windfall as a result? That was the question. GCC chose this risk. It is on their shoulders.

We can debate all day whether it's a good choice or not. We can debate all day as to what reasons each of the council members had internally for voting the way they did. And, we can debate all day what the future will hold for the finances of RSE, and of CoG. It would all be simply, 'debate.' I like it. I like the numerical analysis. That's why I am here. I just like the Numbers. But, it's all really just debate.

The future will show us whether this was a good risk or not.

The only piece of the puzzle missing is whether there are any legal obstacles which prevent this lease from being put into play.

The possibilities of that are:
1) Referendum
2) Legal challenge because the resolution was changed to eliminate the city's outclause immediately before the vote, instead of 24 hour public notice. This challenge would come down to whether that is a material change.
3) Legal challenge to the Gift Clause after enactment.
4) Legal pressure on City Council as a result of the internal audit.

Now, I am not speculating on any of that. Simply, those are the possibilities. Again, we could argue all day about whether any of them or most of them have teeth. That would also be arguing. Time will give us the answers.

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07-07-2013, 01:18 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
Absolutely true.

I did find it interesting that for the most two recent agreements (Jamison's and RSE's), the split was 4-3, with the Mayor opposing and the Acting City Manager (two different ones) essentially recommending against the deal.

It's also pertinent that city council members (including the former mayor), indicated that they might not have supported previous deals had they not been misled by the City Manager and his staff.

It's hardly a slam dunk proposition politically and administratively.

Having said that, as a hockey fan, if I were living in Glendale I would certainly support this current deal. My personal perspective is that it is well worth several million dollars a year in public subsidy to retain an NHL hockey team for my entertainment and quality of life.



Nice! You make a point without being too serious or holier than thou.... well done Whileee!

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07-07-2013, 01:21 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I think when it's all said and done, the final epitaph on the Phoenix megathread series will be: One Thousand and One [Fort]Nights.
Well, if/when the team ever does relocate, there would need to be an aftermath thread to cover the clean-up of the mess the entire process made. The fallout would pertain to the business (and litigation) of hockey. The Phoenix mega-thread is like Hotel California. You can check out but you can never leave.


Who is Sherwood? I mean, beyond having been elected as a City Councilmember? Does he know this Brenda Fischer from before? Why did he handpick her from all 40 applicants and shut down the entire process to railroad (monorail?) things in her favor?

My suspicions is he saw a red flag, one in his favor perhaps? Sherwood is certainly a schemer by acting like mayor and circumventing normal processes (like with the city manager here) and he needs a city manager to cook the books to keep the damage from the NHL deal from showing up. In short, he wants a Beasley-type to be his tango partner. This whole thing smells, feeling like a con game where one gets on the inside, then arranges for their partner crook to get invited in so they can work together to loot the place.

Maybe a clean person can come through a dirty process, but it just seems like why would Sherwood actively take the initiative and do dirty things to put in a clean person? Only thing I could think of is she's [mod].

Glendale's corruption has taken on a life of its own! The original parties actively engaging in corruption can leave, but new people take up the mantle. First Beasley was the mastermind and Clark was the sidekick, now Sherwood is the mastermind and it seems like the new city manager might be his sidekick. What is going on? Are Glendale's books the Necronomicon or something?


Last edited by Fugu: 07-07-2013 at 01:32 PM. Reason: it is suspicious, but implying anything else is potentially libelous
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07-07-2013, 01:22 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by kihekah19 View Post
Oh please. Now we have a comparison of the GCC to Joseph Goebbels?

I know that many of y'all really don't want the team in the desert, but this is way over the top.

I don't think the comparison is to Goebbels but an example of an art form he perfected -- propaganda.

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07-07-2013, 01:24 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
Having said that, as a hockey fan, if I were living in Glendale I would certainly support this current deal. My personal perspective is that it is well worth several million dollars a year in public subsidy to retain an NHL hockey team for my entertainment and quality of life.
And, if I were a hockey fan living in the Phoenix Valley in any municipality except Glendale, I would really be in favor of Glendale spending several million for my entertainment and enjoyment and quality of life.

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07-07-2013, 01:31 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I don't think the comparison is to Goebbels but an example of an art form he perfected -- propaganda.
Quintus Fabius Pictor. 3rd Century BCE. Defender of Roman State Actions.

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07-07-2013, 01:36 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Kihekah,
I disagree with you on many things.

1) You apparently believe CoG is financially better off with Coyotes at any cost. I believe there is a limit to that, and that this agreement, and many others, are beyond the limit.

2) You apparently have confidence in the reasoning at City Hall. I do not.

However, I will agree to this:

The fact is that GCC has agreed many times to lease structures to keep the team there. That is definitely fact. It's also fact that that is the only thing that really matters.

The future is speculation.

I like Bowers' take on this: The choice for the GCC was one of risk. How much financial risk is the GCC willing to take on behalf of the city for the purpose of keeping the team, and perhaps enjoying a development and tax windfall as a result? That was the question. GCC chose this risk. It is on their shoulders.

We can debate all day whether it's a good choice or not. We can debate all day as to what reasons each of the council members had internally for voting the way they did. And, we can debate all day what the future will hold for the finances of RSE, and of CoG. It would all be simply, 'debate.' I like it. I like the numerical analysis. That's why I am here. I just like the Numbers. But, it's all really just debate.

The future will show us whether this was a good risk or not.

The only piece of the puzzle missing is whether there are any legal obstacles which prevent this lease from being put into play.

The possibilities of that are:
1) Referendum
2) Legal challenge because the resolution was changed to eliminate the city's outclause immediately before the vote, instead of 24 hour public notice. This challenge would come down to whether that is a material change.
3) Legal challenge to the Gift Clause after enactment.
4) Legal pressure on City Council as a result of the internal audit.

Now, I am not speculating on any of that. Simply, those are the possibilities. Again, we could argue all day about whether any of them or most of them have teeth. That would also be arguing. Time will give us the answers.

That's really only two things we disagree on and of those two things only part two of the first see "this agreement" is of any disagreement on my part. As for your second point: I never have too much faith in ANY elected officials, but there must be some reason the outcome is always the same. Folks can spout all they want about those who weren't getting re elected claiming they were lied to etc..... but the outcome has still always been the same.

The main focus IMO of our agreement lies in the risk factor and yes there is a HUGE risk in all of this. Glendale made a decision some ten plus years ago and is struggling with the risk of that decision to this day. Time indeed will tell and Govt's should not be in this arena (pun intended), but another fact is that they are.

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07-07-2013, 01:38 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by kihekah19 View Post
Oh please. Now we have a comparison of the GCC to Joseph Goebbels?

I know that many of y'all really don't want the team in the desert, but this is way over the top.
Implying that I'm comparing the GCC to JG is also "way over the top" as it's the meaning of the quote that matters and if it fits the situation why not use it?

Fact of the matter is the lie has been repeated over and over and over and a whole lot of people now believe that it's only because of the 41 plus Coyote games that Westgate does well on all the other days when the Coyotes are not playing.

Yes, I know, that scenario doesn't make a whole lot sense but one has to wonder how Westgate manages to lure people to the restaurants, shops, etc.

Must be the essence of hockey that lingers in the air in and about Wesrdale that gets people out in summer and the off-season.

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07-07-2013, 01:39 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Quintus Fabius Pictor. 3rd Century BCE. Defender of Roman State Actions.
I once took a course on Roman culture and history. When the professor showed a slide of graffiti on an unearthed wall from Pompei (Octavius loves Minerva, for example), she quipped that "There is nothing new under the sun."

That said, Goebbels is one of the best modern day examples of the manipulation of the masses to achieve a desired emotional response.

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07-07-2013, 01:39 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I don't think the comparison is to Goebbels but an example of an art form he perfected -- propaganda.
I think when someone makes it a point to "not mention a name" that "should never be mentioned" it is a direct link to said name.

MOD


Last edited by Fugu: 07-07-2013 at 01:44 PM. Reason: you can send him a PM and ask, instead of making an over the top assertion of his intent
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07-07-2013, 01:46 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by kihekah19 View Post
That's really only two things we disagree on and of those two things only part two of the first see "this agreement" is of any disagreement on my part. As for your second point: I never have too much faith in ANY elected officials, but there must be some reason the outcome is always the same. Folks can spout all they want about those who weren't getting re elected claiming they were lied to etc..... but the outcome has still always been the same.

The main focus IMO of our agreement lies in the risk factor and yes there is a HUGE risk in all of this. Glendale made a decision some ten plus years ago and is struggling with the risk of that decision to this day. Time indeed will tell and Govt's should not be in this arena (pun intended), but another fact is that they are.
Thanks.

So, to get this straight, you are telling me that:
1) You think that some of the prior lease proposals where definitely not in the City's best interest.
2) You think that this one might be in the city's best, but perhaps are not sure.
3) You think that there might always be a reason not to trust any City Hall.
And,
4) Since all the GCC continue to vote in favor, there must be something positive about them.
5) Glendale's first and biggest mistake was building the Job in conjunction with Ellman's vision at Westgate. And, now, having built it and taken on the risk, they are obligated to continue taking risk.

Is that right?

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07-07-2013, 01:48 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by enarwpg View Post
Implying that I'm comparing the GCC to JG is also "way over the top" as it's the meaning of the quote that matters and if it fits the situation why not use it?
Fact of the matter is the lie has been repeated over and over and over and a whole lot of people now believe that it's only because of the 41 plus Coyote games that Westgate does well on all the other days when the Coyotes are not playing.
Yes, I know, that scenario doesn't make a whole lot sense but one has to wonder how Westgate manages to lure people to the restaurants, shops, etc.
Must be the essence of hockey that lingers in the air in and about Wesrdale that gets people out in summer and the off-season.

Good to see that Fugu could help you with your response re: JG!

You have no evidence that would substantiate your claim of telling a lie often enough....

Based on my visits the Westgate area is very, very quiet in the off season.

Perhaps it is the essence of hockey that draws the few who do visit.... I know that's what does it for me!

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07-07-2013, 01:53 PM
  #115
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Westgate, IMO, needs to find other revenue sources in order to maintain long-term financial stability. If this deal gets passed, and then five years down the road the owners excercise their "out" clause option, and the team actually leaves, what happens then? If the Coyotes leave, that is essentially a nail in the coffin for that "mall". However, putting all your eggs in one basket (being the Coyotes) wasn't the brightest decision either. So what other sources of revenue would help out? I have no idea; that is for the COG to figure out. But if I were them, I'd do it quickly, just to be safe. You never know with this franchise.

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07-07-2013, 01:53 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by kihekah19 View Post
I think when someone makes it a point to "not mention a name" that "should never be mentioned"...
... lets just blow the doors off of this subject altogether with
this ode to propaganda, get it out of the system, move along...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMRANk8t0rE

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07-07-2013, 01:55 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Glacial View Post
Who is Sherwood? I mean, beyond having been elected as a City Councilmember? Does he know this Brenda Fischer from before? Why did he handpick her from all 40 applicants and shut down the entire process to railroad (monorail?) things in her favor?

...My suspicions is he saw a red flag, one in his favor perhaps? Sherwood is certainly a schemer by acting like mayor and circumventing normal processes (like with the city manager here) and he needs a city manager to cook the books to keep the damage from the NHL deal from showing up. In short, he wants a Beasley-type to be his tango partner. This whole thing smells, feeling like a con game where one gets on the inside, then arranges for their partner crook to get invited in so they can work together to loot the place.

...Glendale's corruption has taken on a life of its own! The original parties actively engaging in corruption can leave, but new people take up the mantle. First Beasley was the mastermind and Clark was the sidekick, now Sherwood is the mastermind and it seems like the new city manager might be his sidekick. What is going on? Are Glendale's books the Necronomicon or something?
Based on Mr. Chavira's campaign literature, he may be in Sherwood's camp now.

He had the support of Alvarez from the beginning of his campaign (page 3 of attachment).


Last edited by Llama19: 08-03-2013 at 01:33 PM.
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07-07-2013, 02:00 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Thanks.

So, to get this straight, you are telling me that:
1) You think that some of the prior lease proposals where definitely not in the City's best interest.
2) You think that this one might be in the city's best, but perhaps are not sure.
3) You think that there might always be a reason not to trust any City Hall.
And,
4) Since all the GCC continue to vote in favor, there must be something positive about them.
5) Glendale's first and biggest mistake was building the Job in conjunction with Ellman's vision at Westgate. And, now, having built it and taken on the risk, they are obligated to continue taking risk.

Is that right?

No Sir.

1) They may, or may not have been in the cities best interest, only time would have told.
2) While I don't care for the original Ice Edge boys, this deal might have an increased ability to be more competitive with non game events. It really doesn't matter what my opinion is though, what matters again, is what the GCC determines.
3) Why the hell would anyone trust govt.?
4) Nothing positive about city hall. Could be information that you and I are not aware of though that keeps producing the same result.
5) I don't think they are obligated to "keep taking that risk" they are obligated to perform their duties as they believe their constituents would want and act in said constituents best interest.

I believe if you read what I have written here and don't insist on reading anything into it, you will be done with this misguided query.

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07-07-2013, 02:05 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... lets just blow the doors off of this subject altogether with
this ode to propaganda, get it out of the system, move along...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMRANk8t0rE


Good God that was AWFUL!

The only good thing about that was the Giro add at the beginning!

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07-07-2013, 02:05 PM
  #120
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Absolutely true.

I did find it interesting that for the most two recent agreements (Jamison's and RSE's), the split was 4-3, with the Mayor opposing and the Acting City Manager (two different ones) essentially recommending against the deal.

It's also pertinent that city council members (including the former mayor), indicated that they might not have supported previous deals had they not been misled by the City Manager and his staff.

It's hardly a slam dunk proposition politically and administratively.

Having said that, as a hockey fan, if I were living in Glendale I would certainly support this current deal. My personal perspective is that it is well worth several million dollars a year in public subsidy to retain an NHL hockey team for my entertainment and quality of life.
That's rather hard to believe unless the former mayor and council truly were / are as stupid as they've been made out to be.

So, considering the fact that this council knows the financial ramifications of this deal, knows that the city has never made a cent on the arena even with the Coyotes, knows how the assurances of the two $25 million insurance premiums to the NHL turned out, knows that the additional revenue streams are not a sure thing, knows the $15 million AMF is needed to service the Fortress loan, etc .....but still support it is as mind boggling as the hi-lighted statement above.

btw, if financially everything was good in Glendale up until this point in time, spending a few million to keep an NHL team would be a no-brainer however. Considering Moody's downgrading, depletion of the GF, cutting services, etc. it's really not a good idea.

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07-07-2013, 02:07 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by kihekah19 View Post
No Sir.

1) They may, or may not have been in the cities best interest, only time would have told.
2) While I don't care for the original Ice Edge boys, this deal might have an increased ability to be more competitive with non game events. It really doesn't matter what my opinion is though, what matters again, is what the GCC determines.
3) Why the hell would anyone trust govt.?
4) Nothing positive about city hall. Could be information that you and I are not aware of though that keeps producing the same result.
5) I don't think they are obligated to "keep taking that risk" they are obligated to perform their duties as they believe their constituents would want and act in said constituents best interest.

I believe if you read what I have written here and don't insist on reading anything into it, you will be done with this misguided query.
Sorry Kihekah,

It's no misguided query at all. It's merely that I am trying to understand your position, which has not been clear to me. That is the reason I asked directly about those things. The questions were not intended to have any ulterior motive or implication at all. If it seemed I was trying to cast your thoughts in a bad light, or discredit you, then I apologize, for that was not my intent.

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07-07-2013, 02:22 PM
  #122
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Based on Mr. Chavira's campaign literature, he may be in Sherwood's camp now.

He had the support of Alvarez from the beginning of his campaign (page 3 of attachment).
"Tax dollars are not an endless piggy bank", "right now we're at risk for a ballooning deficit and damaged credit rating because the city has made sweetheart deals with out of state corporations". So... Chavira ends up voting for another sweetheart deal which will only add to the city's woes. I guess the ratings agencies are on vacation because they haven't told us how wonderful it would be investing in Glendale .

"We also need to keep our parks and library programs". Yeah, how's that gonna work out?

"Glendale has a great future, but not if the city makes bad deals". If Chavira meant every word he said there, he is quite literally blind to bad deals.

I hope Alvarez sings like a canary, especially if she knows what happened over last weekend, because to go from 7-0 for a deal with an out-clause for the city to 4-3 for a deal without the out-clause, something had to go down. That was such a dramatic turnabout... unless the 4 yes votes were being deceitful, going along with the out-clause to guarantee the lease gets on the agenda knowing full well they were going to revert it back to the old one. Some very dirty-dealing there. Chavira in particular. One question though. Is there *any* indication of which way he leaned before his hero worship moment? Anything from Jan-June which might suggest his post-election stance.

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07-07-2013, 02:23 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Sorry Kihekah,

It's no misguided query at all. It's merely that I am trying to understand your position, which has not been clear to me. That is the reason I asked directly about those things. The questions were not intended to have any ulterior motive or implication at all. If it seemed I was trying to cast your thoughts in a bad light, or discredit you, then I apologize, for that was not my intent.

No worries MNNumbers.

My position/positions?

With and thanks be to God, all things are possible.

One constant is change.

Ignorance is not stupidity, there are no stupid people and everyone can excel at something.

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07-07-2013, 02:50 PM
  #124
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No worries MNNumbers.

My position/positions?

With and thanks be to God, all things are possible.

One constant is change.

Ignorance is not stupidity, there are no stupid people and everyone can excel at something.
well, that clears things up

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07-07-2013, 03:05 PM
  #125
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Haven't been following this for the past year and a half or so, can anyone give me a detailed month-to-month summary of what has happened in the last 18 months?

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