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Is the Kessel Trade leaning Toronto's way now?

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Old
07-07-2013, 07:21 PM
  #26
kilgore111
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Wait until after this year. Seguin is 21, if he tanks again then that is one thing, if he has a breakout year that is another. Seguin is/was acting like an immature idiot, partying etc. I read an article in the Boston Globe I found on the net that said the Bruins were tired of Seguin "acting like a teenager" and pointing out that Chicago had similar issues with Kane but "their patience paid off".

I actually tried posting the article with the subject of Why Seguin Was Traded?" but it was not allowed, which is fine, Mods have to make decisions on what gets posted.

To sum up, wait until he coming year and see if he takes off (and then of course it will matter on how Dougie Hamilton and Knight develop

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07-07-2013, 07:22 PM
  #27
jake08
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Toronto won the trade imo. Seguin hasn't done anything in his time in Bos compared to what Kesssel did in Tor. Seguin may become a great player or he may continue to struggle who knows. Kessel has been consistent and seen as a top winger in the league, same cannot be said about kessel.

- I actually thought the Bruins ripped the Leafs off so bad when Seguin was projected to be amazing. But he's done nothing but change my mind.

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07-07-2013, 07:33 PM
  #28
Bomber0104
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No...it is not leaning Toronto's way....and it's about a 99% certainty that it never will.

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07-07-2013, 07:37 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by KLM-Line View Post
No. Simply because Burke paid an inflated price for a player that didn't fit on his former team and wanted out. Plus he gambled (and lost) on his assets for the trade. The drafted players make for an interesting discussion but don't change the fact that Burke overpaid ... maybe not as much for Kessel himself but certainly for his market price at that given time. Besides Kessel has to be retained/traded soon or we have paid a lot for merely one (two?) playoff appearance with him.
Correct.

I don't know why anyone, other than Toronto Sun subscribers, could possibly think that the trade has been in any way shape or form altered because Tyler Seguin was traded.

Trades are made to exchange assets of equal value...so nothing has changed.

The value Brian Burke pissed away from our organization is lost forever.

The only consolation one can take from this is Brian Burke is fired...and we likely won't see Nonis make such a similarly disgraceful trade.

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07-07-2013, 08:33 PM
  #30
kilgore111
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Correct.

I don't know why anyone, other than Toronto Sun subscribers, could possibly think that the trade has been in any way shape or form altered because Tyler Seguin was traded.

Trades are made to exchange assets of equal value...so nothing has changed.

The value Brian Burke pissed away from our organization is lost forever.

The only consolation one can take from this is Brian Burke is fired...and we likely won't see Nonis make such a similarly disgraceful trade.
I hope you are right but Nonis makes me nervous

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07-07-2013, 08:35 PM
  #31
Stephen
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Hard to say, we got the best player, but they won a cup, and also have Eriksson, Morrow, Hamilton, Knight, and the two plugs Dallas also threw in to boot.

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07-07-2013, 08:43 PM
  #32
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Hard to say, we got the best player, but they won a cup, and also have Eriksson, Morrow, Hamilton, Knight, and the two plugs Dallas also threw in to boot.
You can't really add in the players they received through trade of Seguin. It doesn't really work that way and get muddled. And you would have to include pieces like Peverly, etc. We traded Kessel for 2 1sts (Seguin and Hamilton) and a 2nd (Knight). This past year I have completely turned my thinking around. I do believe Seguin will have a good career, but he is not the next Crosby/Stamkos like we were told to believe. Fact is that we would not be better today with Seguin AND Hamilton than we are with Phil. Phil is a unique and elite talent in this league. I am very happy with this trade now after having a few years to observe and also witnessing the progress Kessel has made in his development. Not to say that Seguin is done with his development, I am just pleased to have a young elite goal scorer in the league and would most definitely do this trade again.

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07-07-2013, 08:47 PM
  #33
MakeTheIronSing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Correct.

I don't know why anyone, other than Toronto Sun subscribers, could possibly think that the trade has been in any way shape or form altered because Tyler Seguin was traded.

Trades are made to exchange assets of equal value...so nothing has changed.

The value Brian Burke pissed away from our organization is lost forever.

The only consolation one can take from this is Brian Burke is fired...and we likely won't see Nonis make such a similarly disgraceful trade.
That makes no sense. If I trade a star away for draft picks than that is not trading equal value, yet this trade happens in the NHL. Trades are made to clear or meet the demands of cap space, they are made to acquire depth, they are made to make a higher or lower draft picks, they are made for contract issues, team chemistry issues, coaching issues, management issues AS WELL as exchanging assests.

Hockey management isn't simply an economic theory where no intangible are taken into account; there are human elements involved.

Trading draft picks for Phil Kessel occured when the Maple Leafs quite frankly didn't have to goal scorers to rub together, let alone an elite goal scorer with game changing abilities. The trade is perfectly fine and changed the dynamics of the Leafs offensive ability. Get over it.

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07-07-2013, 08:53 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Charon of Styx View Post
They won a cup, Seguin was a big part of that, the team went to the final 2 of the 4 years since Kessel left, game set and match.
Seguin contributed next to nothing to their Cup win. They could have easily done it without him. He only appeared in 13 of the 24 games that Boston played that postseason, and in those 13 games he only scored 7 points. He was essentially along for the ride. His contributions to the Cup win were about on par with what Tuukka Rask did that playoff.

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07-07-2013, 08:56 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by MakeTheIronSing View Post
That makes no sense. If I trade a star away for draft picks than that is not trading equal value, yet this trade happens in the NHL.
Depends on the context of the situation. If a star player is forcing a GM to trade him, then they can be traded for draft picks...but to the highest bidder available.

Perhaps I should have specified that I am talking about "hockey trades", as they say.

Quote:
Trades are made to clear or meet the demands of cap space, they are made to acquire depth, they are made to make a higher or lower draft picks, they are made for contract issues, team chemistry issues, coaching issues, management issues AS WELL as exchanging assests.
And again, to the highest available bidder...

Quote:
Hockey management isn't simply an economic theory where no intangible are taken into account; there are human elements involved.
Human elements are accounted for in economic theory.

Quote:
Trading draft picks for Phil Kessel occured when the Maple Leafs quite frankly didn't have to goal scorers to rub together, let alone an elite goal scorer with game changing abilities. The trade is perfectly fine and changed the dynamics of the Leafs offensive ability. Get over it.
I never argued the trade didn't change the dynamics of the Leafs offensive ability. That wasn't the point of my post.

And me "getting over it" also has nothing to do with the most idiotic trade we've seen since the Rask deal.

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07-07-2013, 08:56 PM
  #36
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IF you even have to ask...

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07-07-2013, 09:13 PM
  #37
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the kid's (Seguin) a natural center. he was playing the wing under Julien and struggled. watch him play center in dallas for Ruff and see him blossom. he was misused by Julien. he's still a special player IMO.

we got a good player in kessel, but boston won the trade with the addition of hamilton whose going to be good as well.

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07-07-2013, 09:25 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Stephen23 View Post
You can't really add in the players they received through trade of Seguin. It doesn't really work that way and get muddled.
It doesn't get too muddled if you have a brain.

The Barry Pederson for Cam Neely and a 1st round pick is often cited as one of the great robberies of all time because not only did Neely surpass Pederson in Vancouver, the first round pick ended up being Glen Wesley, who yielded three first round picks, Kyle McLaren, Jonathan Aitken and Sergei Samsonov, who in turn yielded assets like Milan Lucic in time.

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07-07-2013, 09:34 PM
  #39
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It doesn't get too muddled if you have a brain.

The Barry Pederson for Cam Neely and a 1st round pick is often cited as one of the great robberies of all time because not only did Neely surpass Pederson in Vancouver, the first round pick ended up being Glen Wesley, who yielded three first round picks, Kyle McLaren, Jonathan Aitken and Sergei Samsonov, who in turn yielded assets like Milan Lucic in time.
What???
So if boston traded seguin hamilton for a 7 th we would only have traded kessel for knight and a 7th??? Really?

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07-07-2013, 09:35 PM
  #40
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What???
So if boston traded seguin hamilton for a 7 th we would only have traded kessel for knight and a 7th??? Really?
No, it means that Boston would have nothing much to show for the deal. It's not that complicated.

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07-07-2013, 10:07 PM
  #41
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No, it means that Boston would have nothing much to show for the deal. It's not that complicated.
But still, it wasn't Seguin alone for Eriksson, Morros, etc, That was a multiple player deal. So that transaction has nothing to do with the Kessel trade. You would have to make it a 3 way trade including multiple pieces. You could even have the domino effect go further by including the Atlanta Thrashers (Peverly) or Pittsburgh Penguins (Morrow).

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07-07-2013, 10:28 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Stephen23 View Post
But still, it wasn't Seguin alone for Eriksson, Morros, etc, That was a multiple player deal. So that transaction has nothing to do with the Kessel trade. You would have to make it a 3 way trade including multiple pieces. You could even have the domino effect go further by including the Atlanta Thrashers (Peverly) or Pittsburgh Penguins (Morrow).
Kessel, Button, Peverley (Wheeler and Stuart)

for

Eriksson, Hamilton, Morrow, Smith, Fraser, Knight

(Valabik lost to free agency)

Simple as that.

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07-07-2013, 10:34 PM
  #43
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If Boston got mid or late 1st round picks from us, we would have won that trade easily. But a 2nd, 32nd and a 9th is an over payment.

Its like Calgary giving us 2 1st's and a 2nd for Kadri.

Yes, Kadri will be a great player just like Kessel but Calgary is rebuildling and undoubtly will be getting high draft picks for the next few years.

So no, we lost. Did we gain some ground? A bit, but we still lost.

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07-07-2013, 10:50 PM
  #44
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If Boston got mid or late 1st round picks from us, we would have won that trade easily. But a 2nd, 32nd and a 9th is an over payment.

Its like Calgary giving us 2 1st's and a 2nd for Kadri.

Yes, Kadri will be a great player just like Kessel but Calgary is rebuildling and undoubtly will be getting high draft picks for the next few years.

So no, we lost. Did we gain some ground? A bit, but we still lost.
Eh, Phil was far more established than Kadri is.

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07-07-2013, 10:50 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by kilgore111 View Post
Wait until after this year. Seguin is 21, if he tanks again then that is one thing, if he has a breakout year that is another. Seguin is/was acting like an immature idiot, partying etc. I read an article in the Boston Globe I found on the net that said the Bruins were tired of Seguin "acting like a teenager" and pointing out that Chicago had similar issues with Kane but "their patience paid off".

I actually tried posting the article with the subject of Why Seguin Was Traded?" but it was not allowed, which is fine, Mods have to make decisions on what gets posted.

To sum up, wait until he coming year and see if he takes off (and then of course it will matter on how Dougie Hamilton and Knight develop
You weren't allowed to post a article on Seguin partying? lol dictators do that also repression and deny freedom of communication,freedom of speech. They aren't allowed actually to stop you if you offend no one.

Anyways the urban dictionary definition of these boards holds some weight i suppose.

Kessel was always the better player and i doubt Seguin has a career as successful.

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07-07-2013, 10:53 PM
  #46
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Eh, Phil was far more established than Kadri is.
There was no other Leafs RFA that was comparable besides Kadri.

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07-07-2013, 11:19 PM
  #47
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You weren't allowed to post a article on Seguin partying? lol dictators do that also repression and deny freedom of communication,freedom of speech. They aren't allowed actually to stop you if you offend no one.

Anyways the urban dictionary definition of these boards holds some weight i suppose.

Kessel was always the better player and i doubt Seguin has a career as successful.
Seguin is an offensive skilled guy. Kessel is as well, but he is simply a superior playmaker. Phil is an offensive version of Crosby, but without the work ethic.

The fact that he has able to quickly improve his defence tells us a lot about his intelligence. Like, Crosby, he is one of those guys that can adapt quite well. In contrast, Seguin is a prototypical smallish centre but has stronger finishing ability. His vision doesn't particular stand out, though.

A good top liner who will need to be insulated by bigger guys.

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07-08-2013, 12:18 AM
  #48
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I think we lost, but not horribly. Seguin became Eriksson for Boston, either way you're looking at a guy whose value is at least close to Kessel's. Then you add in Hamilton, who is one of the better young dmen in the league, and it's a loss for us. Not a big deal, the Leafs have improved dramatically recently and Kessel is a BIG part of that, but from a value point of view I'd say we lost this trade. Time to get over it, though.

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07-08-2013, 12:30 AM
  #49
MakeTheIronSing
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the kid's (Seguin) a natural center. he was playing the wing under Julien and struggled. watch him play center in dallas for Ruff and see him blossom. he was misused by Julien. he's still a special player IMO.

we got a good player in kessel, but boston won the trade with the addition of hamilton whose going to be good as well.
I think he's going to do worse in Dallas. He's going to the west, where there is traditionally more size and checking in the game. Seguin stands out to me whenever he is on the ice because he looks like a starving orphan who hasnt eaten anything in a week except a bag of chips and 20 vodka red bulls from the night before.

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07-08-2013, 12:31 AM
  #50
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I think we lost, but not horribly. Seguin became Eriksson for Boston, either way you're looking at a guy whose value is at least close to Kessel's. Then you add in Hamilton, who is one of the better young dmen in the league, and it's a loss for us. Not a big deal, the Leafs have improved dramatically recently and Kessel is a BIG part of that, but from a value point of view I'd say we lost this trade. Time to get over it, though.
Kessel wouldn't get you a dougie Hamilton and eriksson? I'm thinkin he would. We will never know that though because he has no character issues forcing us to trade him.

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