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Alfie's tenure with the wings will most resemble...?

View Poll Results: pick one or more!!
Mike Modano 10 10.10%
Steve Yzerman (post knee surgery) 8 8.08%
Steve Thomas 1 1.01%
Marian Hossa 14 14.14%
Luc Robataille 50 50.51%
Robert Lang 19 19.19%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-12-2013, 02:27 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
What's his career average? 20 goals, 50 points?

Once again, those are pretty week numbers for a guy playing #1 center with tons of PP time -- in the prime of his career.

It just seems like that now that we have Weiss -- we're making lots of excuses... especially in Flip vs Weiss mode
Flip beats Weiss last year, even though Flip sucked -- well that's because Weiss was hurt (Flip detractors don't mention Flip was hurt)
Flip beats Weiss the year before -- but that doesn't count, because Flip played with Zetterberg or he wasn't a second.
Brunner outproduced Alfredsson last year, even though Alfie played top line all year and first unit PP all year. But poor Alfie had to play with Turris.

If you argue straight points -- there's an excuse.
If you argue points per 60 minutes, there's an excuse

People then go to the -- well he played on a crappy team argument -- but can't name a single player who left a crappy team where he got first line minutes, and then went to Detroit and produced more points from 2nd line.
It's apples to oranges because Filppula only really produced offensively when he played the wing. Weiss was brought in to replace Filppula because Filppula's time at center couldn't justify his asking price (#1 center). Weiss didn't produce like a #1 center in Florida because he's not a #1 center. Just like Stuart wasn't as effective as a #2 defensemen because his game was better suited as a #4.

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07-12-2013, 02:29 PM
  #102
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I don't get why we're still arguing Flip vs Weiss.

Flip was never a 2C for us. He always failed offensively in that role.

Weiss has done as well offensively as Flip, but as a C.

I don't understand what there is to argue.

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07-12-2013, 02:44 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
I don't get why we're still arguing Flip vs Weiss.

Flip was never a 2C for us. He always failed offensively in that role.

Weiss has done as well offensively as Flip, but as a C.

I don't understand what there is to argue.
What's the purpose of the internet if not for us to argue?

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07-12-2013, 03:00 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
I don't get why we're still arguing Flip vs Weiss.

Flip was never a 2C for us. He always failed offensively in that role.

Weiss has done as well offensively as Flip, but as a C.

I don't understand what there is to argue.
Because you're not operating with the full facts, ES.

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07-12-2013, 03:18 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Because you're not operating with the full facts, ES.
The 'facts' were subjective, though. They're left up to each person to decide how to interpret those facts as they pertain to how each player will produce in the future.

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07-12-2013, 03:33 PM
  #106
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Because you're not operating with the full facts, ES.
It seems like Ken and Mike wanted a 2C, in order to double up with Z&D on the same line. We didn't have that 2C in Filpulla, but we likely do now in Weiss.

The production between Weiss as a C and Flip as a W are close, but as I said, it seems as though the plan is to go with a stacked 1st line. That would've meant Flip as our 2C, or someother experiment (Franzen, etc.)

Do you disagree with any of that?

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07-12-2013, 03:34 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
What's his career average? 20 goals, 50 points?

Once again, those are pretty week numbers for a guy playing #1 center with tons of PP time -- in the prime of his career.

It just seems like that now that we have Weiss -- we're making lots of excuses... especially in Flip vs Weiss mode
Flip beats Weiss last year, even though Flip sucked -- well that's because Weiss was hurt (Flip detractors don't mention Flip was hurt)
Flip beats Weiss the year before -- but that doesn't count, because Flip played with Zetterberg or he wasn't a second.
Brunner outproduced Alfredsson last year, even though Alfie played top line all year and first unit PP all year. But poor Alfie had to play with Turris.

If you argue straight points -- there's an excuse.
If you argue points per 60 minutes, there's an excuse

People then go to the -- well he played on a crappy team argument -- but can't name a single player who left a crappy team where he got first line minutes, and then went to Detroit and produced more points from 2nd line.
Flip was declared healthy and though iirc he missed some practice at the start he said in a interview during the season that the knee isn't bothering him. But he did say in one Tampa interview after the signing that knee did hurt him fwiw.

But anyway, it wasn't the same magnitude as with Weiss who could barely hold hockey stick on his hands.

I wouldn't say this stuff as excuses, it's analysis to me. Weiss didn't produce as much per ice time but played with less talent generally, tougher assignments and with not as good as coaching as he would get with Babs imo.

I think Weiss is better fit, better hockey sense, better at C, wants to win more badly, better pker; and Wings crew seems to think the same way based on what Babs and Holland have said. Time will tell if they were right.

Discounting last year, Weiss played an average of 78.5 games and had an avg. of 58.5 points in them, a pace of little over 60 points.

I don't expect him to produce more points. PP time will decrease but on the other hand he gets little easier minutes now and he doesn't have to be 'the man' who carries the team. 50-55 is realistic prediction imo.

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07-12-2013, 05:42 PM
  #108
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but what my argument presupposes is...maybe he will be?


Post of the day!

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07-12-2013, 07:45 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
What's his career average? 20 goals, 50 points?

Once again, those are pretty week numbers for a guy playing #1 center with tons of PP time -- in the prime of his career.

It just seems like that now that we have Weiss -- we're making lots of excuses... especially in Flip vs Weiss mode
Flip beats Weiss last year, even though Flip sucked -- well that's because Weiss was hurt (Flip detractors don't mention Flip was hurt)
Flip beats Weiss the year before -- but that doesn't count, because Flip played with Zetterberg or he wasn't a second.
Brunner outproduced Alfredsson last year, even though Alfie played top line all year and first unit PP all year. But poor Alfie had to play with Turris.

If you argue straight points -- there's an excuse.
If you argue points per 60 minutes, there's an excuse

People then go to the -- well he played on a crappy team argument -- but can't name a single player who left a crappy team where he got first line minutes, and then went to Detroit and produced more points from 2nd line.
Some of us were arguing that Weiss was the better player before he ever wound up in Detroit.

This also has to do with the fact Weiss is the better center. Filppula's heavy damage came out on the wing, that really doesn't help us unite an aging Zetterberg and Datsyuk. It forces them to be separate and taxes each guy exponentially in the twilight of their careers.

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07-12-2013, 09:33 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
It's apples to oranges because Filppula only really produced offensively when he played the wing. Weiss was brought in to replace Filppula because Filppula's time at center couldn't justify his asking price (#1 center). Weiss didn't produce like a #1 center in Florida because he's not a #1 center. Just like Stuart wasn't as effective as a #2 defensemen because his game was better suited as a #4.
It's not apples to oranges because when you throw at that year and look at the year before ---
2010-11 -- and if you only compare even-strength numbers, Flip was every bit as good as Weiss.
And I've showed this.

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07-12-2013, 09:35 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
Some of us were arguing that Weiss was the better player before he ever wound up in Detroit.

This also has to do with the fact Weiss is the better center. Filppula's heavy damage came out on the wing, that really doesn't help us unite an aging Zetterberg and Datsyuk. It forces them to be separate and taxes each guy exponentially in the twilight of their careers.
Really, this is just totally untrue.
For one, when Z was center, the only thing about Z's game was was centerish was his faceoffs. Flip had the defensive responsibilities.

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07-12-2013, 09:38 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by InjuredChoker View Post
Flip was declared healthy and though iirc he missed some practice at the start he said in a interview during the season that the knee isn't bothering him. But he did say in one Tampa interview after the signing that knee did hurt him fwiw.

But anyway, it wasn't the same magnitude as with Weiss who could barely hold hockey stick on his hands.

I wouldn't say this stuff as excuses, it's analysis to me. Weiss didn't produce as much per ice time but played with less talent generally, tougher assignments and with not as good as coaching as he would get with Babs imo.

I think Weiss is better fit, better hockey sense, better at C, wants to win more badly, better pker; and Wings crew seems to think the same way based on what Babs and Holland have said. Time will tell if they were right.

Discounting last year, Weiss played an average of 78.5 games and had an avg. of 58.5 points in them, a pace of little over 60 points.

I don't expect him to produce more points. PP time will decrease but on the other hand he gets little easier minutes now and he doesn't have to be 'the man' who carries the team. 50-55 is realistic prediction imo.
Well, we'll see. My guess is that Flip's going to produce on pretty much an even-par basis with Weiss even though he won't get the same amount of icetime or have a winger capable as Franzen on his wing.

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07-12-2013, 10:27 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Well, we'll see. My guess is that Flip's going to produce on pretty much an even-par basis with Weiss even though he won't get the same amount of icetime or have a winger capable as Franzen on his wing.
Do Detroit 2Cs get more ice time than all other 2Cs in the NHL?

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07-13-2013, 01:10 AM
  #114
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It's kinda perplexing alot of people are still trying to figure out the 'real reason' alfie moved on.

In my humble opinion, they are wasting time looking for clues from all different area except the place right in front of them. In my opinion, it's simple. It's just as Alfie said from the beginning. He believes Wings give them a better chance to win the cup. The problem most people have believing that story is because they think Ottawa is just as good or Wings aren't that great team on paper. Sure, they have a reasonable reason to believe so but it's not just a team on paper, it's how they play on ice and how they execute as a unit of 5.

Alfie is a leadership guy and a ultimate team player who has a very good understanding of what needs to be done on ice any given situation. To him, the way Wings played is as close as to the 'perfect' team. It's the how wings play not what wings have on paper, though what we have on paper isn't too shabby.

btw All the credit for Alfredsson signing should go to Zetterberg. He did an aboslutely amazing job as a first year captain and quite frankly, his leadership performance this season was as good as any IMO. The biggest reason Wings didnt get killed by Hawks is without a doubt Zetterberg and other leaders on our team.

Also it probably didnt hurt that Wings have had strong swedish representation for quite some times. I would imagine Red Wings have been illustrated favorably and introduced as a model franchise on their national news paper. I have a sneaking suspicion that may have played some part in this as well.

I'm not surprised most hockey media still dont get the real reason why Alfie moved on after Alfie saying it repeatedly from day 1. Because I dont believe most watched Wings playoff games this season or followed this team as closely as Alfredsson.
From the time Alfredsson joined the NHL... Detroit has AVERAGED 109 points a season. Since 1995/96 Detroit has won 4 Stanley Cups. They came as close to beating Chicago as anyone and they have 2 of the best players in the world in Zetterberg and Datsyuk.

I have read the first two pages of this thread. It seems most Detroit fans have no idea how truly great Alfredsson still is. He had a great season. He was a couple of points back from the team scoring leader Turris. Once Spezza went down the Senators really became a defensive team. Then when Karlsson was out the team was still a puck possession team but very strong defensively. Rebounds would be pounced on by four or seemingly even five players sometimes to move a puck out of the crease! The Sens goalies were blessed. Alfredsson and Turris were EVERYTHING to the Senators last season. Alfredsson played 21:00 a night on the top PP unit 2nd PK unit and top line. He was supposed to be the 2nd line RWer. Even Michalek was out over half the season.

Alfredsson is like an older version of Zetterberg or Datsyuk. He is so good at stealing pucks, keeping possession. In Ottawa everyone was talking about Detroit saying he would be playing with Zetterberg and Datsyuk. If those 3 play together it is going to be magic over all 200 ft of the ice.

Alfredsson is not what he was in 2006, but he is still good AT EVERYTHING. He is nearly the perfect hockey player. He so fits into the Detroit style.

I am not happy he left, but I wish him the best. He was the hardest working player on the ice pretty much every game and shift he played for the Senators. He has earned the right to do whatever he wants to do.

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07-13-2013, 06:50 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
From the time Alfredsson joined the NHL... Detroit has AVERAGED 109 points a season. Since 1995/96 Detroit has won 4 Stanley Cups. They came as close to beating Chicago as anyone and they have 2 of the best players in the world in Zetterberg and Datsyuk.

I have read the first two pages of this thread. It seems most Detroit fans have no idea how truly great Alfredsson still is. He had a great season. He was a couple of points back from the team scoring leader Turris. Once Spezza went down the Senators really became a defensive team. Then when Karlsson was out the team was still a puck possession team but very strong defensively. Rebounds would be pounced on by four or seemingly even five players sometimes to move a puck out of the crease! The Sens goalies were blessed. Alfredsson and Turris were EVERYTHING to the Senators last season. Alfredsson played 21:00 a night on the top PP unit 2nd PK unit and top line. He was supposed to be the 2nd line RWer. Even Michalek was out over half the season.

Alfredsson is like an older version of Zetterberg or Datsyuk. He is so good at stealing pucks, keeping possession. In Ottawa everyone was talking about Detroit saying he would be playing with Zetterberg and Datsyuk. If those 3 play together it is going to be magic over all 200 ft of the ice.

Alfredsson is not what he was in 2006, but he is still good AT EVERYTHING. He is nearly the perfect hockey player. He so fits into the Detroit style.

I am not happy he left, but I wish him the best. He was the hardest working player on the ice pretty much every game and shift he played for the Senators. He has earned the right to do whatever he wants to do.
I appreciate the analysis from someone who has watched the Sens night in and night out. I, for one, am happy to have Alfie here and look forward to watching him this season.

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07-13-2013, 12:28 PM
  #116
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Interesting detail...

Ken Holland talked about Alfredsson in some radio interview, that "Alfie is going to be the right-handed shot on the 1st power-play on the left side".

I was like, WTF, finally(!). Holland didn't say anything about him being planned on the point, where he has been very good for Senators and I was expecting him to go there. I really really like hearing this, we haven't had a world-class right-handed shooter used there since... Brendan Shanahan.

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07-13-2013, 12:31 PM
  #117
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Interesting detail...

Ken Holland talked about Alfredsson in some radio interview, that "Alfie is going to be the right-handed shot on the 1st power-play on the left side".

I was like, WTF, finally(!). Holland didn't say anything about him being planned on the point, where he has been very good for Senators and I was expecting him to go there. I really really like hearing this, we haven't had a world-class right-handed shooter used there since... Brendan Shanahan.
Just because he said "on the left side" doesn't mean that he won't be playing the left point in the Power Play. At least that's not how I interpreted it. I have to imagine given the fact that he has a hard RH slap shot, that he is a pretty strong candidate for being on the point on 1 of the 2 PP units.

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07-13-2013, 12:34 PM
  #118
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Just because he said "on the left side" doesn't mean that he won't be playing the left point in the Power Play. At least that's not how I interpreted it. I have to imagine given the fact that he has a hard RH slap shot, that he is a pretty strong candidate for being on the point on 1 of the 2 PP units.
I would hope that he's on point, I'd also assume that if he's on point then Kronwall is on point at the other side.

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07-13-2013, 12:35 PM
  #119
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I would hope that he's on point, I'd also assume that if he's on point then Kronwall is on point at the other side.
Would imagine

Alfredsson-Kronwall
Kindl-Smith

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07-13-2013, 12:40 PM
  #120
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Would imagine

Alfredsson-Kronwall
Kindl-Smith
I'd really like that. Watch Babcock put Samuelsson on the 2nd unit if he's kept under contract

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07-13-2013, 12:44 PM
  #121
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I think Alfredsson could be on the left point only at 5-on-3 situations. 5-on-4, at forward position. Kronner and Kindl would be the point-men.

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07-13-2013, 12:45 PM
  #122
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I'd really like that. Watch Babcock put Samuelsson on the 2nd unit if he's kept under contract
I'm just hoping he doesn't see the ice next year.

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Abdelkader
Alfredsson-Kronwall

Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist/Tatar (whoever is playing better)
Kindl-Smith

Franzen and Abby being the net-front guys.

If there are injuries next year I'd like to see Marchenko or Sproul get a crack on a PP unit with their RH shots.

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07-13-2013, 12:47 PM
  #123
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I think Alfredsson could be on the left point only at 5-on-3 situations. 5-on-4, at forward position. Kronner and Kindl would be the point-men.
Because of mobility?

Given the fact they were willing to play Hudler there, who is small and can't skate well, and try Brunner there, who never played on NA ice and weak on the puck.

I don't really think they would hesitate to give Alfie a spot on the point.

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07-13-2013, 12:57 PM
  #124
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When he says "left side", does he mean point or near the circle? I don't remember, but where did Alfie play for Ottawa?

I hope it's not another Brunner situation.

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07-13-2013, 01:00 PM
  #125
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Because of mobility?

Given the fact they were willing to play Hudler there, who is small and can't skate well, and try Brunner there, who never played on NA ice and weak on the puck.

I don't really think they would hesitate to give Alfie a spot on the point.
If he is on the point, he is on the right side. That has been his position at Ottawa if he has been on the point and that was the position for Rafalski and White with us. Our single righty has always been used like that. Only at 5-on-3 the righty pointman has switched on the left side.

And because Holland said they are planning him on the left, he will be at forward position, not on the point. That's the whole thing for this discussion.

Problem with righty on the left point and lefty on the right point is clearings. It's harder to stop the cleared puck in the side of the board with a wrong handness. That's why they have been that way since Bowman days and it's kind of a default mode for almost all succesful NHL power-plays.

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