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2013 Off-Season Armchair GM Thread Part V

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Old
07-20-2013, 01:21 AM
  #901
Led Zappa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark Fin Soup View Post
If Havlat isn't on the LTIR, Hertl can't be in SJ due to capspace? I know his bonuses make him a bit expensive but don't they make an exception? I doubt he'll reach his bonuses anyways. If Havlat is somehow ready early in the season, I'd love to see Hertl on the 3rd line with Pavs and Torres.
I'm not sure what you are responding to, but if it's me those players put us over the cap too. There are what, 16 forwards?

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07-20-2013, 01:26 AM
  #902
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
I'm not sure what you are responding to, but if it's me those players put us over the cap too. There are what, 16 forwards?
Most of them will be in the AHL though (which brings up the previous conversation of Hertl not fitting cap-wise). With Havlat healthy, it looks like the Sharks only have enough cap-space to hold 12Fs, 7D, and 2Gs, or 13Fs, 6Ds, and 2Gs (assuming no one is traded).

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07-20-2013, 01:35 AM
  #903
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Our weakest position is LW.

LW:
Marleau
Torres
Nieto

RW:
Burns
Havlat
Kennedy
Pavelski


Plus its easier generally for centers to play RW than LW most times. We are MUCH weaker at LW.
Havlat not going to play soon. Pavs centering 3c hopefully as I was saying in my previous statement. So that leaves you Torres marleau lw. burns Kennedy at rw. But I guess to a larger scale we have lots of centers and no wings. I would like to see what hertl has a rw we know what pavs brings as a winger which is valuable. But I still believe pavs value as a center is where he brings the most to the team


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07-20-2013, 01:40 AM
  #904
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Most of them will be in the AHL though (which brings up the previous conversation of Hertl not fitting cap-wise). With Havlat healthy, it looks like the Sharks only have enough cap-space to hold 12Fs, 7D, and 2Gs, or 13Fs, 6Ds, and 2Gs (assuming no one is traded).
I get that. Did you even look at who's on that roster? Talk about that. Who's there now and who's not. Looks like mind games to me. A couple prospects have to make the forward lineup. D, I don't care. That's pretty much set.

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07-20-2013, 01:40 AM
  #905
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
I'm not sure what you are responding to, but if it's me those players put us over the cap too. There are what, 16 forwards?
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Most of them will be in the AHL though (which brings up the previous conversation of Hertl not fitting cap-wise). With Havlat healthy, it looks like the Sharks only have enough cap-space to hold 12Fs, 7D, and 2Gs, or 13Fs, 6Ds, and 2Gs (assuming no one is traded).
I wasn't referring specifically to your post, LZ. I haven't been paying attention to the cap but I've seen multiple times that if Havlat was healthy, Hertl can't come up to SJ until the playoffs when there's no cap. I was trying to get a confirmation if that's true because that's a bummer. If Hertl can't come up until the playoffs, then he has no chemistry with any line.

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07-20-2013, 01:42 AM
  #906
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
I get that. Did you even look at who's on that roster? Talk about that. Who's there now and who's not. Looks like mind games to me. A couple prospects have to make the forward lineup. D, I don't care. That's pretty much set.
I'm mainly going off of what's on this list:
http://www.capgeek.com/sharks/

Prospects don't really have to make the forward line-up because the Sharks' roster is pretty much set (assuming no trades).

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07-20-2013, 01:50 AM
  #907
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
I'm mainly going off of what's on this list:
http://www.capgeek.com/sharks/

Prospects don't really have to make the forward line-up because the Sharks' roster is pretty much set (assuming no trades).
As am I.

But that is the official Sharks Roster. All I'm saying is that it appears there are mind games being played, because you know the prospects are watching that page. I know I would be. Hertl not making over Oleksuk it already? Palehzzzzz............

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07-20-2013, 02:07 AM
  #908
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
As am I.

But that is the official Sharks Roster. All I'm saying is that it appears there are mind games being played, because you know the prospects are watching that page. I know I would be. Hertl not making over Oleksuk it already? Palehzzzzz............
I'm not even sure how they decide who goes on that roster page during the offseason. It all seems so random. The only reason I brought up that page earlier in this thread was I was under the impression Petrecki is still unsigned and thus not a member of the team, and I've still not even seen anything saying we have John Padulo under contract. I looked up Padulo after that, and he just seems like a really dirty player.

I think what SFS is referring to is the Havlat thread, I said Hertl might not be able to come up immediately if Havlat plays. If you assume Hertl doesn't hit a single one of his bonuses (and I've never been able to figure out what they are), having him and Havlat, and the roster as it is now, leaves us around $20,000 in cap space. Twenty thousand. That'd make something as simple as an AHL callup a problem. If Havlat is coming back at some point this season, no matter when, we have to have space for that cap hit of his to be back on the books. I'm aware Hertl sending us over the cap with his bonuses would just result in a cap penalty next year, but that's still not a very workable situation.

I have to think if Hertl + Havlat was going to work, someone would need to be moved out.

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07-20-2013, 02:54 AM
  #909
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark Fin Soup View Post
If Havlat isn't on the LTIR, Hertl can't be in SJ due to capspace? I know his bonuses make him a bit expensive but don't they make an exception? I doubt he'll reach his bonuses anyways. If Havlat is somehow ready early in the season, I'd love to see Hertl on the 3rd line with Pavs and Torres.
Not necessarily true. The Sharks are over the cap essentially due to Hertl's bonuses and they're allowed to go over the upper limit because of that so at this point, they are still cap compliant.

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07-20-2013, 03:31 AM
  #910
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According to capgeek...

"For example, if the upper limit is $64,300,000, teams can exceed it by $4,822,500 in performance bonuses. Any performances bonuses in excess of that total do not fall into the cushion and are counted as part of the team's cap payroll."

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07-20-2013, 03:42 AM
  #911
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If we were paying another 4th liner 800-900k instead of paying Burish 1.8 mill, we would be able to fit Hertl in. But of course DW had to overpay Burish by a mill.

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07-20-2013, 04:31 AM
  #912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark Fin Soup View Post
If we were paying another 4th liner 800-900k instead of paying Burish 1.8 mill, we would be able to fit Hertl in. But of course DW had to overpay Burish by a mill.
Burish could be ditched in a heartbeat. If the powers that be see that we need to bump him, it's easy peasey. You can argue till your blue in the face that someone should take his spot, but until they think like you do the situation is mute.

Oh, and Burish ain't overpaid by a mil

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07-20-2013, 04:56 AM
  #913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Not necessarily true. The Sharks are over the cap essentially due to Hertl's bonuses and they're allowed to go over the upper limit because of that so at this point, they are still cap compliant.
Capgeek has it correct, the sharks are actually over the cap by 831K but since 425K of it is Hertl's bonus they are only 406K over.

Without a trade it will not be possible for Hertl and Havlat to play together without another move. The most probable option I see is the sharks trade/demote one of their D (Demers, Irwin, Braun or Hannan) and go with 12F,6D,2G and use Burns as the flex.

With the current 7D signed on NHL deals if they were not demoted and they cleared waivers to the AHL they will still at least partially count against the cap.

Even sending down Burish and trying a different 13th forward would only not allow them to keep Hertl and Havlat on the roster at the same time because it would leave the sharks with 518K in cap space

Unless there is a surprise like if Demers is not ready yet he could stay on LTIR and Tennyson could be called up as the replacement and they would be under the cap

FORWARDS
Tomas Hertl ($1.350m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
Raffi Torres ($2.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m) / Tyler Kennedy ($2.350m)
James Sheppard ($0.830m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.750m) / Adam Burish ($1.850m)
Tommy Wingels ($0.775m)
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Boyle ($6.667m) / Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($4.250m)
Brad Stuart ($3.600m) / Scott Hannan ($1.000m)
Justin Braun ($1.250m) / Matt Tennyson ($1.175m)
Matt Irwin ($1.000m) /
GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Alex Stalock ($0.625m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,806,667; BONUSES: $675,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $168,333
LTIR--> Jason Demers ($1.500m)

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07-20-2013, 04:57 AM
  #914
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Not necessarily true. The Sharks are over the cap essentially due to Hertl's bonuses and they're allowed to go over the upper limit because of that so at this point, they are still cap compliant.
Actually, after double-checking, Hertl without bonuses puts us over the cap as well. Just barely. I'd been going under the same assumption, but Capgeek hasn't been counting Hertl's bonus in the cap calculator to begin with. Am I missing something else here?

Adjusted using only Hertl's base salary:

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Tyler Kennedy ($2.350m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
Raffi Torres ($2.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m) / Tomas Hertl ($0.925m)
Andrew Desjardins ($0.750m) / Adam Burish ($1.850m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.775m)
James Sheppard ($0.830m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Boyle ($6.667m) / Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($4.250m)
Brad Stuart ($3.600m) / Jason Demers ($1.500m)
Justin Braun ($1.250m) / Scott Hannan ($1.000m)
Matt Irwin ($1.000m) /
GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Alex Stalock ($0.625m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,706,667; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): -$406,667


Last edited by DrSanchez: 07-20-2013 at 05:03 AM.
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07-20-2013, 10:34 AM
  #915
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
Burish could be ditched in a heartbeat. If the powers that be see that we need to bump him, it's easy peasey. You can argue till your blue in the face that someone should take his spot, but until they think like you do the situation is mute.

Oh, and Burish ain't overpaid by a mil
He's overpaid. There are a lot of vets who can equal Burish's production given the circumstances who sign for less than $1mil. His best years were quality 4th line numbers in a third line role; like Wingels, offensively. PK and faceoff specialists (guys higher than 54%) can also garner extra. Show any year where he was a top 20 PK forward in the league by checking at behindthenet for GA60.

On cap and who is on the roster even if Havlat is healthy, there will be injuries which will necessitate callups. There is no way that there won't be a lot of LTIR time somewhere in the roster.

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07-20-2013, 10:37 AM
  #916
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It's also possible capgeek is slightly wrong about some of the salaries, they have been off upto 250k or so before. As I recall they were off about Wallin for instance.

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07-20-2013, 11:44 AM
  #917
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If I'm understanding the way the LTIR works correctly, Havlat's salary doesn't count for the cap for games he misses due to LTIR. That means, given prorating salaries, that his effective cap hit drops by just under 61k a game he misses. We can't bank that, and his full remaining salary applies as soon as he comes back, but what it effectively means is that if he misses at least 7 games on LTIR (a pretty safe bet) then we'll be cap compliant for the season. Plus, while he's gone, we can completely ignore his salary in order to call someone up. (Nieto, perhaps?) As soon as he comes back, though, we'll have to send someone down immediately to get cap-compliant, depending on how many games are left. If he misses, say, half the season, then we only have to worry about 2.5m of his cap hit, which gives us plenty of room to have Nieto + 1 rotating member of the Woostah crowd up here.

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07-20-2013, 12:18 PM
  #918
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
He's overpaid. There are a lot of vets who can equal Burish's production given the circumstances who sign for less than $1mil. His best years were quality 4th line numbers in a third line role; like Wingels, offensively. PK and faceoff specialists (guys higher than 54%) can also garner extra. Show any year where he was a top 20 PK forward in the league by checking at behindthenet for GA60.

On cap and who is on the roster even if Havlat is healthy, there will be injuries which will necessitate callups. There is no way that there won't be a lot of LTIR time somewhere in the roster.
Who are you comparing him to? Scott Nichol?

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07-20-2013, 12:52 PM
  #919
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Originally Posted by Limekiller View Post
If I'm understanding the way the LTIR works correctly, Havlat's salary doesn't count for the cap for games he misses due to LTIR. That means, given prorating salaries, that his effective cap hit drops by just under 61k a game he misses. We can't bank that, and his full remaining salary applies as soon as he comes back, but what it effectively means is that if he misses at least 7 games on LTIR (a pretty safe bet) then we'll be cap compliant for the season. Plus, while he's gone, we can completely ignore his salary in order to call someone up. (Nieto, perhaps?) As soon as he comes back, though, we'll have to send someone down immediately to get cap-compliant, depending on how many games are left. If he misses, say, half the season, then we only have to worry about 2.5m of his cap hit, which gives us plenty of room to have Nieto + 1 rotating member of the Woostah crowd up here.
Havlat's cap hit always counts even on LTIR. What LTIR does is allow the team to go over the upper limit by the amount that the guy is making that is on LTIR. Once he's healthy and activated, they lose that ability and must become cap compliant to the upper limit.

As for the current situation, the easiest thing to do is to assign Hertl to Worcester when Havlat is ready. The best thing to do is to waive and assign Burish to Worcester. If someone takes him off the team's hand for nothing, that's great. If not, they save a good amount in Worcester and can call him back up when they have enough cap space to do so since they won't have to worry about re-entry waivers anymore.

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07-20-2013, 01:17 PM
  #920
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Who are you comparing him to? Scott Nichol?
Among others. Asham, Steckel, Hall, Mayers . . .

$1.8mil is Vern Fiddler territory.

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07-20-2013, 04:36 PM
  #921
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Havlat's cap hit always counts even on LTIR. What LTIR does is allow the team to go over the upper limit by the amount that the guy is making that is on LTIR. Once he's healthy and activated, they lose that ability and must become cap compliant to the upper limit.
Well, cap hits are always pro-rated, right? That means if he misses games on LTIR, his cap hit won't be the full 5mil, I believe. Doing the math (salary / 82 games), Havlat's cap hit drops by just under 61k for every game he is out, correct?

Assuming that's the case, we're fine with keeping Hertl up even after Havlat comes back, just so long as Havlat misses at least 7 games, which would be enough reduction of his cap value to fit in the 400k Sanchez was saying we were over.

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07-20-2013, 05:03 PM
  #922
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Originally Posted by Limekiller View Post
Well, cap hits are always pro-rated, right? That means if he misses games on LTIR, his cap hit won't be the full 5mil, I believe. Doing the math (salary / 82 games), Havlat's cap hit drops by just under 61k for every game he is out, correct?

Assuming that's the case, we're fine with keeping Hertl up even after Havlat comes back, just so long as Havlat misses at least 7 games, which would be enough reduction of his cap value to fit in the 400k Sanchez was saying we were over.
You don't gain cap space when the player who puts you over the cap is on LTIR.

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07-20-2013, 05:16 PM
  #923
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Havlat's cap hit always counts even on LTIR. What LTIR does is allow the team to go over the upper limit by the amount that the guy is making that is on LTIR. Once he's healthy and activated, they lose that ability and must become cap compliant to the upper limit.

As for the current situation, the easiest thing to do is to assign Hertl to Worcester when Havlat is ready. The best thing to do is to waive and assign Burish to Worcester. If someone takes him off the team's hand for nothing, that's great. If not, they save a good amount in Worcester and can call him back up when they have enough cap space to do so since they won't have to worry about re-entry waivers anymore.
I think you are right on that they would send Hertl down, but means they will go with 21 guys on the roster for a portion with only 12 forwards including Burns. I suspect in this case they will use Demers as the emergency F or go 7 D if some F gets hurt. The good thing is that while Hertl is down when Havlat is healthy they will be ~518K under the cap and they will be banking that space daily so that will mean they wont have to wait till the playoffs to call him back up, they could do it with a few weeks left in the season potentially.

I wonder if they will utilize the Bulls this year to reduce the cross country travel since it seems like they will be trying to save each day. Also, I don't remember the rules during the Olympic break if those days count which would also help...

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07-20-2013, 05:28 PM
  #924
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Well, cap hits are always pro-rated, right? That means if he misses games on LTIR, his cap hit won't be the full 5mil, I believe. Doing the math (salary / 82 games), Havlat's cap hit drops by just under 61k for every game he is out, correct?

Assuming that's the case, we're fine with keeping Hertl up even after Havlat comes back, just so long as Havlat misses at least 7 games, which would be enough reduction of his cap value to fit in the 400k Sanchez was saying we were over.
You don't get the salary of Havlat back since he is on the roster for the complete season. The only players that have a fractional cap hit are for trades or that are signed mid season. All players daily cap hits are calculated by their salary divided by number of days in the season, usually ~190 days and not by the number of games

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07-20-2013, 06:23 PM
  #925
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
He's overpaid. There are a lot of vets who can equal Burish's production given the circumstances who sign for less than $1mil. His best years were quality 4th line numbers in a third line role; like Wingels, offensively. PK and faceoff specialists (guys higher than 54%) can also garner extra. Show any year where he was a top 20 PK forward in the league by checking at behindthenet for GA60.

On cap and who is on the roster even if Havlat is healthy, there will be injuries which will necessitate callups. There is no way that there won't be a lot of LTIR time somewhere in the roster.
pavs is at, 5.64
marleau is at, 6.20
desjardins is at, 6.21
wingels is at, 7.33
burish is at, 8.06
galiardi is at, 6.17
couture, thornton, sheppard, gomez, torres, havlat all at 0.00

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