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2013 Off-Season Armchair GM Thread Part V

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Old
07-09-2013, 05:16 PM
  #126
do0glas
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
I don't think Marleau would waive and I would not ask him to. But if you went to JT and said "hey Joe, we are not going to offer you a contract next year, we are moving on as a club, we appreciate everything you've done for us, we'd like to move you somewhere you would like to be" he'd probably at least consider it. It's pure conjecture though.
there is a difference though in the perception that there is nothing we can do.

my initial post i was trading jt/boyle anyway. but if you are asked to waive it changes the landscape completely. not saying he would or wouldnt, but if you dont ask he wont waive. you put the ball in his court if you ask, and DW has done it before.

which is the point i was trying to make. the NMC/NTC is inherent contract security, but it only means that you have a choice. the GM can still say he wants to move you, will you waive? if a player knows hes not wanted, it changes things.

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07-09-2013, 06:43 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Splitbtw View Post
  • DW quiety shops and trades each one of Pavs, Boyle, Marleau and Thornton to separate teams collecting NHL-ready prospects and some 1sts
  • Give the C to Couture and A's to two other emerging leaders or to Stuart and another youngster
  • Open competition in camp for the available spots
  • Install a new more offensive system that fits the pieces rather than specifically get pieces that fit the current system
  • See what happens. If competitive (5-8) in 2013, add an impact player at the deadline if available, otherwise stay with the course.
Whoo a decade of finishing 26-30th in in the league!

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Old
07-09-2013, 06:53 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
there is a difference though in the perception that there is nothing we can do.

my initial post i was trading jt/boyle anyway. but if you are asked to waive it changes the landscape completely. not saying he would or wouldnt, but if you dont ask he wont waive. you put the ball in his court if you ask, and DW has done it before.

which is the point i was trying to make. the NMC/NTC is inherent contract security, but it only means that you have a choice. the GM can still say he wants to move you, will you waive? if a player knows hes not wanted, it changes things.
I agree with what you said. We CAN ask Thornton or Marleau to waive, but we Wont. DW is trying to keep our team culture (and his reputation) as player favorable. We won't tell a star player on our roster that we can afford that we won't even negotiate.

The Clowe thing this year is the roadmap of how this will work. Only if it becomes painfully obvious that we wont be able to afford re-signing the player with a NMC, will we go to them to see if they want to test the market. For Clowe, we got a 2nd + Torres (2 deals, I know). If he did not have a limited number of teams we could target, I suspect we would have gotten a good forward prospect and a 2nd + 3rd.

If Marleau and Thornton are willing to take HTD (say 5.5 cap for 3 years, 6M, 5.5M, 5M), they will retire sharks. Boyle and Pavelski can be traded without tarnishing our player friendly image. If Boyle agrees to a two year, 5M cap hit extension, I suspect DW keeps him. Pavs he will keep if he can sign 4 years at no greater than Couture. Am not saying this is the best option for the team, but I do think it is the most plausible DW course. If any of our Big 4 are reluctant to extend for the above maximums, then we may shop them (probably again at the TDL)

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Old
07-09-2013, 07:06 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
If you can get a good return like a proposed for Boyle, you should. Specifically target a team that is looking to improve its defense immediatly at the cost of developing players or prospects.

Thornton is a bit trickier, it's going to be a quality for quantity trade, but in our case we would be looking to fill specific holes so that can work. If we can get a young high-offense defensemen (either prospect near NHL ready or struggling young NHLer) for instance as part of the deal, that could help a lot. Or if you get a couple of high caliber wingers it helps balance the roster quite a bit.

You could also move Pavelski of course, but that's likely a 1 for 1 need for need trade. I think you need to hang onto Pavelski until you know if Hertl is going to work out. Its unlikely we are going to be so out of it that we are sellers at the deadline, so either they are traded this off-season, walk next off-season, or are re-signed. If you re-sign those guys you are basically committing to this core again.
So, let's assume we are shopping Boyle only. We could even keep 3 M in cap hit to increase the return, depending on the salary coming back. Who would be interested?

Ottawa? But they just traded the two prospects I would have targeted in Noeson + Silf + 1st for Ryan. They likely don't have the assets to burn on boyle

Habs? They seem to want more of a physical defenseman.

Rangers? Maybe. They might be willing to Kristo (just aquired so no sentimental value) + 2nd/Kreiderfor Boyle. Is that enough of a return to let our PP go back to earth?

Who else? Leafs? Would appreciate your thoughts

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Old
07-09-2013, 07:38 PM
  #130
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Not the best place, but this doesn't deserve its own thread. Sharks face book page just posted a stat from these last playoffs about thornton.

This post season thornton was on the ice for 19 goals for, and 3 goals against.

So thornton was on the ice for 19 of 25 of the sharks goals this playoffs.

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Old
07-09-2013, 07:46 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
Not the best place, but this doesn't deserve its own thread. Sharks face book page just posted a stat from these last playoffs about thornton.

This post season thornton was on the ice for 19 goals for, and 3 goals against.

So thornton was on the ice for 19 of 25 of the sharks goals this playoffs.
Trade him.

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Old
07-09-2013, 07:52 PM
  #132
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Trade him.
Yup even with thornton moving over for the "better player" and taking less top situations on the team he is still the focal point for all the offense.

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07-09-2013, 07:53 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Nolan11 View Post
I agree with what you said. We CAN ask Thornton or Marleau to waive, but we Wont. DW is trying to keep our team culture (and his reputation) as player favorable. We won't tell a star player on our roster that we can afford that we won't even negotiate.

The Clowe thing this year is the roadmap of how this will work. Only if it becomes painfully obvious that we wont be able to afford re-signing the player with a NMC, will we go to them to see if they want to test the market. For Clowe, we got a 2nd + Torres (2 deals, I know). If he did not have a limited number of teams we could target, I suspect we would have gotten a good forward prospect and a 2nd + 3rd.

If Marleau and Thornton are willing to take HTD (say 5.5 cap for 3 years, 6M, 5.5M, 5M), they will retire sharks. Boyle and Pavelski can be traded without tarnishing our player friendly image. If Boyle agrees to a two year, 5M cap hit extension, I suspect DW keeps him. Pavs he will keep if he can sign 4 years at no greater than Couture. Am not saying this is the best option for the team, but I do think it is the most plausible DW course. If any of our Big 4 are reluctant to extend for the above maximums, then we may shop them (probably again at the TDL)
actually with that second they got kennedy. so the sharks traded clowe for kennedy, torres and a 5th. at first i thought it was an ok return but at the end of the day it turned about to be a great return.

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Old
07-09-2013, 08:57 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
Not the best place, but this doesn't deserve its own thread. Sharks face book page just posted a stat from these last playoffs about thornton.

This post season thornton was on the ice for 19 goals for, and 3 goals against.

So thornton was on the ice for 19 of 25 of the sharks goals this playoffs.
i honestly cant say if thats a good or bad thing.

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Old
07-09-2013, 09:08 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
i honestly cant say if thats a good or bad thing.
It means that DW and TMac's legacy as a GM and coach will be heavily determined on how the team plays once Thornton's time as a Shark is over.

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Old
07-09-2013, 09:23 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Nolan11 View Post
So, let's assume we are shopping Boyle only. We could even keep 3 M in cap hit to increase the return, depending on the salary coming back. Who would be interested?

Ottawa? But they just traded the two prospects I would have targeted in Noeson + Silf + 1st for Ryan. They likely don't have the assets to burn on boyle

Habs? They seem to want more of a physical defenseman.

Rangers? Maybe. They might be willing to Kristo (just aquired so no sentimental value) + 2nd/Kreiderfor Boyle. Is that enough of a return to let our PP go back to earth?

Who else? Leafs? Would appreciate your thoughts
Trade Boyle, keep 2 mil of his contract, and use the cap space to sign Mikhail Grabovski.

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Old
07-10-2013, 12:08 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I agree completely with this sentiment. Until we improve scouting by a mile and get a franchise player via tanking, we're not going anywhere.
And even with that there is no guarantee. Took the Kings what.. more than 40 years? And they had Gretzky in his prime... They've been to the finals twice in more than 40 years... Yes sharks fans should be extremely grateful for how competitive this team is every year.

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Old
07-10-2013, 12:16 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
We are arguing that has happened, his name is Logan Couture. You are simply arguing that hasn't happened. We will see if we are in fact correct this season, but if we are then it's too late to trade Thornton and we either re-sign him, or let him walk. That's the point.
If Logan outscores thornton this next year then you can start calling it a trend. Right now it's just one season when JT and most of the team had a below average offensive output. I want to see what JT does with his new toys next season before we anoint a kid who frankly isn't in the same class as JT yet and probably never will be.

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Old
07-10-2013, 12:16 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by NWShark View Post
And even with that there is no guarantee. Took the Kings what.. more than 40 years? And they had Gretzky in his prime... They've been to the finals twice in more than 40 years... Yes sharks fans should be extremely grateful for how competitive this team is every year.
Yeah, it's great that they're playoff competitive. It's sad that they're not really Cup competitive anymore.

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Old
07-10-2013, 12:19 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
And it seemed like that was the plan, then they scrapped it. I think you should stick to your plans, just because they made the 2nd round...

There was never any indication from the organization that was the plan.. that was just some wishful thinking by posters here.

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Old
07-10-2013, 12:21 AM
  #141
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Yeah, it's great that they're playoff competitive. It's sad that they're not really Cup competitive anymore.
It would be sad if it were true. Not winning the Cup does not mean they weren't "Cup competitive" no matter how many times you say it.

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Old
07-10-2013, 12:22 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by SnarkAttack View Post
I think something that's being lost in the tank for the championship vs. competitive over long periods of time discussion is that the best team doesn't always win. Noone in the world can convince me that the Kings were the best team last year, or that Carolina was the best the year they won.

It most often is won by the hottest good team. The Sharks just haven't been hot at the right time, their goalies have never been on one of their hot streaks in the playoffs, and they haven't always been the best team. Stanley Cups are going to be won by one of the top 5 teams nearly every year, and the Sharks have been there very often in the last 10 years. Sometimes it just comes down to the fact that there are 30 teams, and 29 have to lose.


Bravo sir. Your attempt at reason will surely be ridiculed and denigrated...

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07-10-2013, 12:27 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Splitbtw View Post
Just out of curiosity and mostly because I am bored and don't want to start back up at work, how many of you would be opposed to the following completely unrealistic and not going to happen scenario?
  • DW quiety shops and trades each one of Pavs, Boyle, Marleau and Thornton to separate teams collecting NHL-ready prospects and some 1sts
  • Give the C to Couture and A's to two other emerging leaders or to Stuart and another youngster
  • Open competition in camp for the available spots
  • Install a new more offensive system that fits the pieces rather than specifically get pieces that fit the current system
  • See what happens. If competitive (5-8) in 2013, add an impact player at the deadline if available, otherwise stay with the course.
Sounds like a recipe for a lotto pick the following year...

If DW gonna do this he might as well chamber 2 bullets and start spinning the barrel...

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07-10-2013, 12:30 AM
  #144
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Depends what happens this season...but it's not unrealistic to look at what we currently have and assume the Sharks are going to be a bubble team next year. If things click and they are able to play like they did in the Playoffs, great. If things just aren't going right, and extensions havent been worked out, ask Thornton if he wants a trade to an EC contender, if the return will be enough to jump start the rebuild (call it a refresh if you want, its a rebuild). The concern here is that any team that would want to bring on Thornton, or Boyle for that matter, likely won't have a high (1-10) first round pick to give up, and won't help us much. I would prefer the team to keep Marleau, he is undervalued league wide IMO and is worth much more to the Sharks than what they would get in return for a trade.

It will be interesting to see if DW has had a plan for this all along, or if this is basically it for the era of the Sharks competing year in, year out.
Good lord... this roster is going to be top 4 in the conference and top 8 in the league... Bubble team? Is the bubble for the division? If the kings weren't so strong I would say the sharks are a shoe in for another division title. I think it'll be a dog fight to the end though with the Kings.

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Old
07-10-2013, 12:36 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
It would be sad if it were true. Not winning the Cup does not mean they weren't "Cup competitive" no matter how many times you say it.
And being in the playoffs doesn't make you Cup competitive either. And notice I said 'anymore' which concedes that they were at one time.

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Old
07-10-2013, 12:40 AM
  #146
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Good lord... this roster is going to be top 4 in the conference and top 8 in the league... Bubble team? Is the bubble for the division? If the kings weren't so strong I would say the sharks are a shoe in for another division title. I think it'll be a dog fight to the end though with the Kings.
we're not good enough offensively to be a top 8 team in the league imo

2.42 goals/game in the regular season, 2.27 g/g in the playoffs

1.60 g/g last playoffs

we need more ****ing goals (especially at even strength)

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Old
07-10-2013, 12:41 AM
  #147
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Sports is not solely about entertaining the fans. It is about competition just as much, if not moreso. The competition is what the business of sports is founded upon. The reality with most fans is that good hockey actually means winning hockey. I'm not like that. I can find good hockey between horrible teams. However, don't let this we're close thing fool you. There is no guarantee that making the playoffs means we have a real chance at the Cup. Blues made it for 20+ years w/o one and had to take the hit eventually. My philosophy on it is that at some point, you have to reach the conclusion that you've run your course with your core and that when you realize that they aren't going to get better or the team is not going to be in a position to legitimately compete for the title, you have to prepare for a time where you can by building from within.

I don't like the idea of propping the team up to a level that is good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to go anywhere when they get there. That's pretty much where I see this team right now. It only delays the inevitable. And even keeping the status quo of being a playoff team that doesn't win it all will eventually get tiresome by the fans. The Blues weren't peaches and cream with their attendance during their run. The Braves in baseball are the most noted example of winning not meaning good enough to keep the fans going.

You also should be able to acknowledge that you as a BB poster may not be any more correct about when the team should cut bait than the guys who're actually paid to make the decisions. You say inevitable but you're not nostradamas. You don't know and the reality is that your way doesn't get the team closer to a championship, it takes it further away from it.

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Old
07-10-2013, 12:45 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Man in the Mirror View Post
we're not good enough offensively to be a top 8 team in the league imo

2.42 goals/game in the regular season, 2.27 g/g in the playoffs

1.60 g/g last playoffs

we need more ****ing goals (especially at even strength)
You need to sort those numbers from before TDL and after... Also I'm not going to make and gross determinations about the offensive potency of the team in an 11 game span when they played QUick in beast mode for 7 of them all while missing a potential top 4 D, and 2 top 9 wingers and a 4th liner who plays a prominent role on the PK.

If Hertl is even mediocre this team is better than last seasons.. Healthy Braun, 2nd year Irwin etc...

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Old
07-10-2013, 12:46 AM
  #149
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actually with that second they got kennedy. so the sharks traded clowe for kennedy, torres and a 5th. at first i thought it was an ok return but at the end of the day it turned about to be a great return.
I suppose we can say:

Clowe + Galiardi for Torres + Kennedy + 4th + 5th

Not a bad return, I suppose, but I still would like another top 6 winger coming in to fill clowe's void on the second line.

Now Murray for two seconds was a steal

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07-10-2013, 12:47 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
Not the best place, but this doesn't deserve its own thread. Sharks face book page just posted a stat from these last playoffs about thornton.

This post season thornton was on the ice for 19 goals for, and 3 goals against.

So thornton was on the ice for 19 of 25 of the sharks goals this playoffs.
Trade him!!!

Yeah maybe that guy might be worth keeping around...

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