HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

NHL's Greatest Playmakers

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-13-2005, 12:15 PM
  #1
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,214
vCash: 500
NHL's Greatest Playmakers

I have finally finished my greatest playmakers list. Much like the scorers and goal scorers list, this list is based on my 7 point system to level the playing field across all eras of NHL hockey. Assist rules, offensive eras, defensive eras, huge goalie equipment, the center red line, 80 game seasons, 30 games seasons, all of this stuff is irrelevant. The 7 point system cuts through all of that 'noise' to find out who the true playmakers are. (7pts for 1st in assists during a season, 6 pts for 2nd, 5pts for 3rd, 4 pts for 4th, 3 pts for 5th, 2 pts for 6th, 1 pt for 7th) 2 extra points for winning assist title by 25%. 4 extra points for winning by 50%. 6 extra for winning by 75%.


Two things that immediately stood out when I completed these ratings are:

1) Adam Oates in 3rd place! I have always known that he was a great playmaker but 3rd all time? I had to add it up twice to make sure it was accurate. It is and I have a much greater respect for the man's playmaking abilities.

2) We all know that Wayne Gretzky is the greatest playmaker of all time but, he is even greater than I thought! Many people believe that Wayne's time in New York was poor performance just playing out the string. Far from it! Wayne tied for the league lead in assists in 1997 and 1998 then, in his final season of 1999 he was tied for 6th in the league in assists! That is remarkable considering the stage of his career that he was in.

Wayne also achieved an amazing 13 point assist title in 1985-86. I award 7 point to win a scoring/goal/assist title. Win by 25% and I give 9 points rather than 7. Win by 50% and I give 11 points. Wayne Gretzky won the 1986 assist title by an amazing 75.2% over Mario Lemieux!!! Gretzky had 163 assists to Lemieux's 93. Wow!! Nobody had done that in points or goals and this is the only time it has ever been done with assists. Truly the Great Gretzky.


So, here are the 100 greatest playmakers in NHL history:


1 Wayne Gretzky 137.75
2 Gordie Howe 84.5
3 Adam Oates 55
4 Frank Boucher 51
5 Mario Lemieux 50.5
6 Andy Bathgate 50
7 Phil Esposito 49
8 Stan Mikita 48.5
9 Bobby Orr 46.5
10 Bill Cowley 40.75
11 Jean Beliveau 39.25
12 Ted Lindsay 37.5
Elmer Lach 37.5
14 Paul Coffey 34
15 Jaromir Jagr 31
16 Marcel Dionne 30.5
17 Bryan Trottier 30
Guy Lafleur 30
19 Bobby Clarke 29.5
20 Cy Denneny 28.75
21 Ron Francis 28
22 Alex Delvecchio 27
23 Howie Morenz 26.17
24 Peter Forsberg 24
25 Peter Stastny 23
Art Chapman 23
27 Max Bentley 22.5
Doug Bentley 22.5
Joe Sakic 22.5
30 Sid Abel 22
31 Aurel Joliat 21.17
Joe Primeau 21.17
33 Phil Watson 20.5
34 Bert Olmstead 20
35 Reg Noble 19.58
36 Milt Schmidt 19.5
37 Henri Richard 19
Denis Savard 19
39 Mark Messier 18
40 Paul Ronty 17.5
41 Syl Apps 16.75
42 Billy Taylor 16
Dickie Moore 16
44 David Schriner 15.5
Doug Gilmour 15.5
46 Buddy O'Connor 15
Ted Kennedy 15
King Clancy 15
49 Corb Denneny 14.5
50 Frank Nighbor 14
51 Newsy Lalonde 13.7
52 Clint Smith 13
Dale Hawerchuk 13
Pierre Pilote 13
55 Reginald Smith 12.87
56 Jean Ratelle 12.5
Ray Bourque 12.5
58 Bernie Federko 12
Bobby Rousseau 12
60 Harry Cameron 11.75
61 Rod Gilbert 11.25
62 Marty Barry 11.2
63 Gilbert Perreault 11
Pete Mahovlich 11
Steve Yzerman 11
Mark Recchi 11
Louis Berlinquette 11
Bill Boucher 11
Doug Harvey 11
70 Paul Haynes 10.95
71 Doug Weight 10.5
Red Kelly 10.5
73 Ace Bailey 10
Bill Gadsby 10
Phil Goyette 10
76 Elwyn Romnes 9.25
77 Eddie Gerard 9
Ken Randall 9
Don McKenny 9
Bill Hay 9
81 Bobby Hull 8.5
Eddie Shore 8.5
83 Brian Leetch 8
Frederick Cook 8
85 Jason Allison 7.75
Syd Howe 7.75
87 Norm Ullman 7.5
Denis Potvin 7.5
Herbie Lewis 7.5
Harry Broadbent 7.5
91 Edmond Bouchard 7
Dick Irvin 7
Jack McKell 7
Gus Bodnar 7
95 Leo Reise 6.5
Bill Cook 6.5
Scott Gomez 6.5
Martin St. Louis 6.5
Barry Pederson 6.5
Earl Reibel 6.5
Bill Thoms 6.5

Ogopogo* is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 12:52 PM
  #2
kmad
Riot Survivor
 
kmad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 32,953
vCash: 500
Nice list

One error though; would be perfect if assists were weighted differently for first- and second-assists, although those statistics would be mighty hard to obtain.

kmad is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 01:36 PM
  #3
Malefic74
Registered User
 
Malefic74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Halfway between Nothing and Not Much Else
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,755
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad
Nice list

One error though; would be perfect if assists were weighted differently for first- and second-assists, although those statistics would be mighty hard to obtain.
The other thing that's impossible to count is whether or not your linemates have hands of stone. I've lost track over the years of pretty passes from the likes of Pierre Turgeon and Craig Janney that end up being one-timed into the far corner.

But the list seems pretty complete.

A few names jump out at me.

Does his placement on this list change your opinion of Ron Francis at all Ogo?

I'm also pleasantly surprised to see that even with their advantages evened out by a system, the stars of the 80s are still represented. When you look back at it the collection of offensive talent in that generation was staggering.

The only real surprise to me was that Jason Allison made the list. Maybe because it's been so long since I've seen him play that I've forgotten, but I would never have thought to consider him a playmaker, and certainly not ahead of Turgeon, Janney or Federov.

Malefic74 is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 01:38 PM
  #4
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malefic74
The other thing that's impossible to count is whether or not your linemates have hands of stone. I've lost track over the years of pretty passes from the likes of Pierre Turgeon and Craig Janney that end up being one-timed into the far corner.

But the list seems pretty complete.

A few names jump out at me.

Does his placement on this list change your opinion of Ron Francis at all Ogo?

I'm also pleasantly surprised to see that even with their advantages evened out by a system, the stars of the 80s are still represented. When you look back at it the collection of offensive talent in that generation was staggering.

The only real surprise to me was that Jason Allison made the list. Maybe because it's been so long since I've seen him play that I've forgotten, but I would never have thought to consider him a playmaker, and certainly not ahead of Turgeon, Janney or Federov.
Yes, I must admit that this does cause me to have a whole lot more respect for Ron Francis.

Until I actually worked the numbers, I did not realize how effective he was as a playmaker.

Ogopogo* is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 01:44 PM
  #5
Luigi Lemieux
Registered User
 
Luigi Lemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 13,480
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Yes, I must admit that this does cause me to have a whole lot more respect for Ron Francis.

Until I actually worked the numbers, I did not realize how effective he was as a playmaker.
you could've just watched him play to see how effective of a playmaker he was.

Luigi Lemieux is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 01:46 PM
  #6
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Metamorphosis
you could've just watched him play to see how effective of a playmaker he was.

True but, basing my full opinion on what I saw would be colored by bias and a cloudy memory. I am an Oilers fan so, I would have put Messier far ahead of Francis based on personal memory. The numbers paint a much more accurate picture of the real situation.

Ogopogo* is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 08:50 PM
  #7
KOVALEV10*
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Simply the best!
Posts: 3,314
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
True but, basing my full opinion on what I saw would be colored by bias and a cloudy memory. I am an Oilers fan so, I would have put Messier far ahead of Francis based on personal memory. The numbers paint a much more accurate picture of the real situation.
Numbers aren't everything my friend. That list is good but any list that doesn't have Orr at number 2 or 3 is not accurate in my opinion. The guy was getting 80-100 assists a year in an era where the closest was 65 assists and on top of that he was a defenseman.

KOVALEV10* is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 09:46 PM
  #8
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Numbers aren't everything my friend. That list is good but any list that doesn't have Orr at number 2 or 3 is not accurate in my opinion. The guy was getting 80-100 assists a year in an era where the closest was 65 assists and on top of that he was a defenseman.
What you fail to realize is that the 8 players in front of him also led the league in assists or were close to it for many seasons. Orr is not 2nd or 3rd because his career was short. I cannot credit him for assists not earned or what ifs. He is exactly where he belongs based on his career. There is no accurate rating system that puts Orr as the #2 or #3 assist guy of all time. He was great but his career was not long enough for him to get that high on the list.

Ogopogo* is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 10:25 PM
  #9
KariyaIsGod*
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,140
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Numbers aren't everything my friend. That list is good but any list that doesn't have Orr at number 2 or 3 is not accurate in my opinion. The guy was getting 80-100 assists a year in an era where the closest was 65 assists and on top of that he was a defenseman.
Fine, but who do you take out of that top three to put Orr in then?

KariyaIsGod* is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 10:30 PM
  #10
Habsfan 32
Registered User
 
Habsfan 32's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Way up north...
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,319
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Habsfan 32 Send a message via MSN to Habsfan 32
Nice list.

Habsfan 32 is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 10:30 PM
  #11
colonel_korn
Luuuuuuuuuu....lay?
 
colonel_korn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: St John's, NL
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,362
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
The 7 point system cuts through all of that 'noise' to find out who the true playmakers are. (7pts for 1st in assists during a season, 6 pts for 2nd, 5pts for 3rd, 4 pts for 4th, 3 pts for 5th, 2 pts for 6th, 1 pt for 7th) 2 extra points for winning assist title by 25%. 4 extra points for winning by 50%. 6 extra for winning by 75%.
Just out of curiosity, under this system I don't understand where the half- and quarter-points in your totals are coming from?

colonel_korn is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 10:40 PM
  #12
KOVALEV10*
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Simply the best!
Posts: 3,314
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMoses
Fine, but who do you take out of that top three to put Orr in then?
Definately Oates.

KOVALEV10* is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 10:42 PM
  #13
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by colonel_korn
Just out of curiosity, under this system I don't understand where the half- and quarter-points in your totals are coming from?
Good question.

When there are ties, the fractions come into play. For example:

If three players were tied for 7th in assists one season, I would take the one point for 7th place and divide it three ways so that each player would get 0.33.

Ogopogo* is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 10:52 PM
  #14
Masao
Registered User
 
Masao's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 10,134
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
(7pts for 1st in assists during a season, 6 pts for 2nd, 5pts for 3rd, 4 pts for 4th, 3 pts for 5th, 2 pts for 6th, 1 pt for 7th) 2 extra points for winning assist title by 25%. 4 extra points for winning by 50%. 6 extra for winning by 75%.
The problem is that it doesn't take into consideration how many seasons a player has played or how many games he has missed during the seasons he played. Mario should be WAY higher, but of course with your method he's not going anywhere with his career average of 55 games per season. Same thing for Bobby Orr if he would have played more seasons.

Masao is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 11:00 PM
  #15
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masao
The problem is that it doesn't take into consideration how many seasons a player has played or how many games he has missed during the seasons he played. Mario should be WAY higher, but of course with your method he's not going anywhere with his career average of 55 games per season. Same thing for Bobby Orr if he would have played more seasons.
I don't agree with crediting players with phantom statistics. If they earned the stats, they get the stats. Every single player deals with injuries, personal problems etc. etc. and they miss games.

We don't credit the Canucks with a Stanley Cup final appearance because they were deprived of their second best player last season, we don't give Eric Lindros five scoring titles for what "could have been", we don't give Normand Leveille a spot in the HOF because he "might have been" a superstar if he didn't have an anyeurism and we don't consider Barry Pederson one of the all time greats since his career was destroyed by a tumor in his arm.

Those guys did not put up the numbers or win the games, we cannot credit them for what might have been.

We can only rank them according to what they did accomplish. Based on that criteria, Orr and Lemieux are in about the right spot.

Ogopogo* is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 11:05 PM
  #16
Luigi Lemieux
Registered User
 
Luigi Lemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 13,480
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
I don't agree with crediting players with phantom statistics. If they earned the stats, they get the stats. Every single player deals with injuries, personal problems etc. etc. and they miss games.

We don't credit the Canucks with a Stanley Cup final appearance because they were deprived of their second best player last season, we don't give Eric Lindros five scoring titles for what "could have been", we don't give Normand Leveille a spot in the HOF because he "might have been" a superstar if he didn't have an anyeurism and we don't consider Barry Pederson one of the all time greats since his career was destroyed by a tumor in his arm.

Those guys did not put up the numbers or win the games, we cannot credit them for what might have been.

We can only rank them according to what they did accomplish. Based on that criteria, Orr and Lemieux are in about the right spot.
yes but isn't lemieux second all time in assists per game? how is that a phantom statistic? weren't you the one who said that someone with a few "great" seasons is better than someone with many "good" seasons? How many players can match Lemieux's 114 assist season?

instead of trying to create some equation which is obviously faulty, watching them play you would realize mario is without a doubt the #2 playmaker in history.

Luigi Lemieux is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 11:12 PM
  #17
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Metamorphosis
yes but isn't lemieux second all time in assists per game? how is that a phantom statistic? weren't you the one who said that someone with a few "great" seasons is better than someone with many "good" seasons? How many players can match Lemieux's 114 assist season?
He is credited for his 114 assist season on my system.

Assists per game is a very misleading statistic when you are comparing across eras.

Some players (like today) play during a very defensive era. How is it fair to take their assists per game and compare it to the guys that played during the 80s? The fact is, it is not fair. There is no way anybody could achieve those kinds of totals in today's NHL, Gretzky and Lemieux included. That is the whole reason I went to the 7 point system - to be fair to all players of all eras no matter how offensive or defensive the NHL was during their playing career.

Ogopogo* is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 11:13 PM
  #18
doc5hole
Registered User
 
doc5hole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,627
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
True but, basing my full opinion on what I saw would be colored by bias and a cloudy memory. I am an Oilers fan so, I would have put Messier far ahead of Francis based on personal memory. The numbers paint a much more accurate picture of the real situation.

Actually, they don't because they don't take into consideration whose one's linemates are. Jozef Stumpel, for instance, played 7 more games in 02-03 than he did in 01-02 but recorded 10 fewer assists for one primary reason: Sergei Samsonov's wrist injury.
Marcel Dionne, IMO, was out of sight a better playmaker than Phil Esposito. Esposito was a 1-on-1 monster in traffic and an all-time great finisher. But most of his assists were rebounds of his shots whacked into the net by Ken Hodge, Wayne Cashman and Johnny Bucyk.

doc5hole is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 11:15 PM
  #19
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by doc5hole
Actually, they don't because they don't take into consideration whose one's linemates are. Jozef Stumpel, for instance, played 7 more games in 02-03 than he did in 01-02 but recorded 10 fewer assists for one primary reason: Sergei Samsonov's wrist injury.
Marcel Dionne, IMO, was out of sight a better playmaker than Phil Esposito. Esposito was a 1-on-1 monster in traffic and an all-time great finisher. But most of his assists were rebounds of his shots whacked into the net by Ken Hodge, Wayne Cashman and Johnny Bucyk.
Talent around a player is mistakenly overrated.

Did Gretzky need superstars around him to be great? Did Mario? Does anybody? I say no.

During Gretzky's first two seasons, he scored 137 and 164 points respectively. His rookie year he was saddled with Brett Callighen and BJ MacDonald as linemates on a horrible Oilers team that barely squeaked into the 16/21 playoff format. His second season, he broke the record for points in a season on a slightly better Oilers team where his highest scoring teammate had 75 points! Clearly Gretzky did not need great teammates to dominate.

Mario had 100 and 141 points in his first two seasons on a horrible Penguins team.

Peter Stastny, Andy Bathgate and Marcel Dionne all put up great numbers on bad teams.

Now, if a guy like Rob Brown scores 115 points once while playing on Lemieux's line, or a guy like Bernie Nicholls hits 70 goals and 150 points once while playing with Gretzky, that can be considered an anomaly based on playing with a talented teammate. But, when a player has great season after great season year in and year out, you have to conclude that he is responsible for his success. Ultimately, Jari Kurri had to put the puck in the net. It is great to get nice passes from Gretzky but, if he couldn't score he would have been gone. Remember Raimo Summanen? Exactly.

Great players produce with any teammates, under any circumstances, during any season. That is why they are great, they don't need great teammates to be great - they are the great teammate that Rob Brown and Bernie Nicholls need to lean on.

Consistent greatness is not accident.

Ogopogo* is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 11:16 PM
  #20
Luigi Lemieux
Registered User
 
Luigi Lemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 13,480
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
He is credited for his 114 assist season on my system.

Assists per game is a very misleading statistic when you are comparing across eras.

Some players (like today) play during a very defensive era. How is it fair to take their assists per game and compare it to the guys that played during the 80s? The fact is, it is not fair. There is no way anybody could achieve those kinds of totals in today's NHL, Gretzky and Lemieux included. That is the whole reason I went to the 7 point system - to be fair to all players of all eras no matter how offensive or defensive the NHL was during their playing career.
okay but this point system will never be able to convince me and i'm sure many others that adam oates is a better playmaker than mario lemieux. adam oates and lemieux were the same era, so according to you assists per game should be a good indicator in this case. you know your system is wrong when adam oates comes out ahead even though mario's assists per game is much higher than oates'.

Luigi Lemieux is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 11:20 PM
  #21
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Metamorphosis
okay but this point system will never be able to convince me and i'm sure many others that adam oates is a better playmaker than mario lemieux. adam oates and lemieux were the same era, so according to you assists per game should be a good indicator in this case. you know your system is wrong when adam oates comes out ahead even though mario's assists per game is much higher than oates'.
Mario was hurt a lot. I cannot credit "phantom" assists - that is exactly what assists per game does. Much like the NBA. Did you know that the leading scorer can miss 20 games and still be considered the leading scorer because of his per game average? Many seasons the leading scorer in basketball is not actaully the guy that scored the most points. That is messed up.

Another example. George Brett was flirting with a .400 batting average back in 1980. Many people said that he should get above .400 and sit out the last few games so that he could maintain that average. That is making a farce of the statistics in my opinion.

A guy should produce and be recognized accordingly. Mario's assists per game is nice but, if he doesn't actually play all the games, they don't help his team. Injuries suck but, that is life.

Ogopogo* is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 11:24 PM
  #22
Luigi Lemieux
Registered User
 
Luigi Lemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 13,480
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Mario was hurt a lot. I cannot credit "phantom" assists - that is exactly what assists per game does. Much like the NBA. Did you know that the leading scorer can miss 20 games and still be considered the leading scorer because of his per game average? Many seasons the leading scorer in basketball is not actaully the guy that scored the most points. That is messed up.

Another example. George Brett was flirting with a .400 batting average back in 1980. Many people said that he should get above .400 and sit out the last few games so that he could maintain that average. That is making a farce of the statistics in my opinion.

A guy should produce and be recognized accordingly. Mario's assists per game is nice but, if he doesn't actually play all the games, they don't help his team. Injuries suck but, that is life.
please. you're completely contradicting yourself now. before you said jim carey was "greater" than cujo because of his vezina season. who helped their respective teams more over their careers, cujo or carey? according to your argument in this thread, cujo did. if carey's vezina season puts him over cujo, why would mario's 114 assist season not put him over oates?

Luigi Lemieux is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 11:30 PM
  #23
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Metamorphosis
please. you're completely contradicting yourself now. before you said jim carey was "greater" than cujo because of his vezina season. who helped their respective teams more over their careers, cujo or carey? according to your argument in this thread, cujo did. if carey's vezina season puts him over cujo, why would mario's 114 assist season not put him over oates?

Cujo has never won a Vezina trophy, Conn Smythe trophy or been a post season all star. He has never risen to the top of his profession, Jim Carey has.

Mario's 114 assist season was credited accordingly - you have seen how it breaks down. Adam Oates spent plenty of time atop the assist race. It comes down to Oates having one more excellent playmaking season than Mario had.

I don't see how your argument makes sense or how I am contradicting myself. It all makes perfect sense. Perhaps I haven't explained it clearly enough to you?

Ogopogo* is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 11:35 PM
  #24
Luigi Lemieux
Registered User
 
Luigi Lemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 13,480
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Cujo has never won a Vezina trophy, Conn Smythe trophy or been a post season all star. He has never risen to the top of his profession, Jim Carey has.

Mario's 114 assist season was credited accordingly - you have seen how it breaks down. Adam Oates spent plenty of time atop the assist race. It comes down to Oates having one more excellent playmaking season than Mario had.

I don't see how your argument makes sense or how I am contradicting myself. It all makes perfect sense. Perhaps I haven't explained it clearly enough to you?
ok i understand your method but i just can't agree with putting oates over lemieux and carey over cujo. there's just something very wrong with that.

in '93, oates had 97 assists in 84 games. that same year mario had 91 assists in 60 games. which one is really the more impressive season?

Luigi Lemieux is offline  
Old
06-13-2005, 11:39 PM
  #25
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Metamorphosis
ok i understand your method but i just can't agree with putting oates over lemieux and carey over cujo. there's just something very wrong with that.

in '93, oates had 97 assists in 84 games. that same year mario had 91 assists in 60 games. which one is really the more impressive season?

I hate to beat a dead horse but, I just can't credit assists that never happened. And, when you look at it, those 6 exta assists contributed to six more goals. Because Oates stayed healthy, he used those six assists to help his team win games. Because Mario was injured, he could not contribute to his team's success.

I agree, 91 assists in 60 games is very impressive but, it just does not make sense to put that ahead of Oates' 97 in 84 games in my system.

Thank you for the discussion.

Ogopogo* is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:55 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.