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Old
08-20-2013, 06:46 PM
  #226
TheOllieC
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Can someone tell me the best brand/type I can get (price would be nice too) if I went to the store right now and got some as a gift? Thanks.

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08-20-2013, 07:41 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Maelmoor View Post
While I agree in what you say Upper Deck are not the angel you make them sound like, they have done their share of mistakes through the years. There have been poor handling of redemptions, shady lawsuits etc
I didn't say they were perfect as a company, but their accomplishments can't be denied. They have, in hockey, every major accomplishment. They've always treated hockey special...why? I don't know. But the result is observable to anyone.

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08-20-2013, 07:46 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by TheOllieC View Post
Can someone tell me the best brand/type I can get (price would be nice too) if I went to the store right now and got some as a gift? Thanks.
12-13 SP Authentic is nice.
Any box of recent Artifacts is decent too.
If you're looking for at or under $100 from a retail shop, a box of regular Upper Deck S1 from 11-12 or before is nice and solid too.

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08-20-2013, 07:51 PM
  #229
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That might be part of the reason why MLB dropped their license with Upper Deck, come to think of it.
From what I understand, UD couldn't pay their royalties to MLB due to their money being tied up in lawsuits so they lost their baseball MLB license. They kept their MLBPA license so they still make baseball cards, but with no logos. The cards are ugly IMO.

For some weird but true reason, UD always does its best in hockey.

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08-20-2013, 08:08 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Kschey View Post
So, this one here is the best online shop in Germany I've seen so far when it comes to trading Cards.

http://www.taass.com/TRADING-CARDS/E...th=3_23&page=1

Would you mind taking a quick look at their supply and tell me whether some of those boxes are interesting? Maybe even some of the cheaper ones?

Most of them also have descriptions in English if you need them.

I'm aware it's a lot to ask for so it's absolutely fine if you're tired of all my questions and you don't want to browse through a German online store on top of it!


11-12 SP Game Used...cheap and good. 11-12 Parkhurst Champions is neat too...it has a very low price because it's usually just one auto a box.

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08-21-2013, 03:58 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
11-12 SP Game Used...cheap and good. 11-12 Parkhurst Champions is neat too...it has a very low price because it's usually just one auto a box.
Alright, thanks again!
Another two questions (you guys really have to hate me by now ...):

Is there anything of value to find in Panini's Score collections at all? By "anything of value" I don't talk about hundreds of dollars but rather about let's say more than 10-20$ a card!?

I might be able to pick up some 08-09 UD Series 1 packs cheaply? Are they worth it? They are retail, but on the packs it says "Find Young Guns Rookie Cards". What's the exact difference between "Retail" and "Hobby"?
Those packs contain 5 cards each.

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08-21-2013, 05:38 AM
  #232
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Children of the annunaki say 'we want more' as they selfishly slam down their spoons.

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08-21-2013, 07:39 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Kschey View Post
Alright, thanks again!
Another two questions (you guys really have to hate me by now ...):

Is there anything of value to find in Panini's Score collections at all? By "anything of value" I don't talk about hundreds of dollars but rather about let's say more than 10-20$ a card!?

I might be able to pick up some 08-09 UD Series 1 packs cheaply? Are they worth it? They are retail, but on the packs it says "Find Young Guns Rookie Cards". What's the exact difference between "Retail" and "Hobby"?
Those packs contain 5 cards each.
I assume you are from Poland. I can reconnemend this trading site: Forum das Cardboard
It's a german trading card forum. A member of the Taas shop is also registered there and can give you, more often than not, better prices if you order it direct from him. I've done it quite a few times and their service was always A+. I'm not from Germany either, but they ship really fast.

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08-21-2013, 09:46 AM
  #234
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While Upper Deck is the most popular, Panini is getting unfairly criticized here. Obviously an Upper Deck fanboy is doing his best propaganda slinging here. They were doing cards in Europe long before they were doing cards in North America. They aren't just a sticker company making cards like the one guy stated. They make decent cards, some of their designs are much better than the Upper Deck re-hashing of the same designs year after year. Both companies do have a quality control issue. UD seems to have a lot of damaged cards in packs, Panini has had problems with autographed cards not holding the ink because they use too glossy of a surface. Both companies have plusses and minuses. UD is more popular because 90% of collectors today don't care about the cards, they care about the value, and UD cards sell for more. If you're investing, you go for the more likely winner, and that is Upper Deck.

And for the record, not all great innovations were because of Upper Deck. They put jerseys in cards first, sure, but a lot of great innovations to cards have been brought in by smaller companies like Pacific (who is no longer in business) and In The Game (who doesn't have a license so makes Junior and Retired player cards), and UD has poached their good ideas. They made them "mainstream" first, so a lot of people think they invented the wheel, when they just copied the design.

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08-21-2013, 09:50 AM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kschey View Post
Alright, thanks again!
Another two questions (you guys really have to hate me by now ...):

Is there anything of value to find in Panini's Score collections at all? By "anything of value" I don't talk about hundreds of dollars but rather about let's say more than 10-20$ a card!?

I might be able to pick up some 08-09 UD Series 1 packs cheaply? Are they worth it? They are retail, but on the packs it says "Find Young Guns Rookie Cards". What's the exact difference between "Retail" and "Hobby"?
Those packs contain 5 cards each.
Score will have the odd card that's worth a few dollars, but they are hard to find. I haven't paid much attention to Score in a few years, but their first year back, all of good rookies were super short prints, and worth a bit of money. There were also autographed versions of the rookies which would go for a lot. These were really, really hard to get though.

The difference between retial and hobby is in the odds of getting big hits. Rookies are the same odds most of the time, but when it comes to autographs, jerseys, patches, inserts, etc., the odds of getting them in retail are much lower. Some cards aren't even packed into retail. So if you are going for rookies only, retail is the one for you, if you want the chance of pulling a sweet patch, pressplate or HG insert (numbered out of 10), then get Hobby.

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08-21-2013, 09:51 AM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
11-12 SP Game Used...cheap and good. 11-12 Parkhurst Champions is neat too...it has a very low price because it's usually just one auto a box.
Parkhurst Champions is one of my favorites. You are guaranteed one auto per box, but a lot of boxes have two. You can also get auto's mini cards and 1/1 press plates, but not many collectors care for those a lot.

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08-21-2013, 09:55 AM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
From what I understand, UD couldn't pay their royalties to MLB due to their money being tied up in lawsuits so they lost their baseball MLB license. They kept their MLBPA license so they still make baseball cards, but with no logos. The cards are ugly IMO.

For some weird but true reason, UD always does its best in hockey.
Couldn't, or wouldn't, lol. Hockey players have been stiffed on royalties by UD in the past too (Mats Sundin stopped signing auto cards because he wasn't getting paid). UD does the best in hockey because they have had the market share for longer. Topps has always been competitive in the other sports, and sometimes more popular. But Upper Deck was in hockey before Topps was, and has more collectors as a result. The exclusive deal they had starting in 2005 killed all competition, and UD had the entire market. Quality suffered (in terms of card condition), as did customer service, but they brought out some interesting products then for sure. Now they do best in hockey, I believe, because its their only licensed major sport left. If they lose hockey, they have almost no credibility left.

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08-21-2013, 11:27 AM
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kschey View Post
Alright, thanks again!
Another two questions (you guys really have to hate me by now ...):

Is there anything of value to find in Panini's Score collections at all? By "anything of value" I don't talk about hundreds of dollars but rather about let's say more than 10-20$ a card!?

I might be able to pick up some 08-09 UD Series 1 packs cheaply? Are they worth it? They are retail, but on the packs it says "Find Young Guns Rookie Cards". What's the exact difference between "Retail" and "Hobby"?
Those packs contain 5 cards each.
The major difference between retail and hobby are the odds of pulling jersey cards (about half that of hobby) and the retail do not contain acetate or UD exclusive (numbered 1:100) parallel sets. The issue is that jersey cards aren't worth that much and neither are parrallel cards. Unless you get an exclusive of a star, which is unlikely, no one really wants it. For instance, I was unable to sell my Maxim Talbot UD exclusive card on ebay for $1.50.

If they are the packs of 5, that means they are the blaster pack version, with Young Guns coming 1:6. In regular retail and hobby, the packs contain 8 cards, and the Young Guns are 1:4.

The 2008/9 year is loaded with a lot of good Young Guns rookies: Stamkos, Giroux, and Doughty being the 3 biggest. Just make sure that you are getting Series 1.

So it really comes down to how cheap you are getting the packs. For 2008/09 and 2009/10 Series 1, I think it makes more sense to go retail than hobby. Retail boxes are going for about half the price. The big draw with these sets is the Young Guns, as there are some big ones in there that will be hit fairly often. The extra jersey or longshot at a valuable hobby exclusive card, do not make up for the added price of the hobby boxes (usually double the price).

I ordered 3 boxes of 2009/10 retail ($32/box). I hope to have these in the next day or two. I'll let you know how the break goes and if it was worth it or not.

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08-21-2013, 01:17 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by choccy View Post
I'm a big collector in hockey cards.

Currently getting my 70's cards built up which is fun.

I also am now into selling many hockey cards as well as other vintage and rare collectable items.

Anyone else have a good 70's card collection? Some are so bad that their actually really good lol.

My pride and joy card has to be Bobby Orr!
Finished the 70s OPC run a number of years back, though I still need to tangle with some of the insert sets for 1971-73. Still plugging away on a 1973 OPC master set (complete NM set in both light and dark backs). I'm about 135-odd cards away from being finished with the 60s.

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Old
08-21-2013, 02:15 PM
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kschey View Post
Alright, thanks again!
Another two questions (you guys really have to hate me by now ...):

Is there anything of value to find in Panini's Score collections at all? By "anything of value" I don't talk about hundreds of dollars but rather about let's say more than 10-20$ a card!?

I might be able to pick up some 08-09 UD Series 1 packs cheaply? Are they worth it? They are retail, but on the packs it says "Find Young Guns Rookie Cards". What's the exact difference between "Retail" and "Hobby"?
Those packs contain 5 cards each.
Those packs are retail,waning they have no high end inserts in them. On the othe hand there is a small chance of finding a Stamkos Young Guns. When calculating retail, I usually measure it at 1/4 th the value. In your case the packs are 5 card packs do they are half packs...a normal pack has 10 cards.

So if a regular hobby pack of 08-09 UD S1 is $4, then a retail pack is worth $1. Since this is a half-pack, it would be 50 cents. In other words retail is junk.

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08-21-2013, 02:25 PM
  #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManofSteel55 View Post
While Upper Deck is the most popular, Panini is getting unfairly criticized here. Obviously an Upper Deck fanboy is doing his best propaganda slinging here. They were doing cards in Europe long before they were doing cards in North America. They aren't just a sticker company making cards like the one guy stated. They make decent cards, some of their designs are much better than the Upper Deck re-hashing of the same designs year after year. Both companies do have a quality control issue. UD seems to have a lot of damaged cards in packs, Panini has had problems with autographed cards not holding the ink because they use too glossy of a surface. Both companies have plusses and minuses. UD is more popular because 90% of collectors today don't care about the cards, they care about the value, and UD cards sell for more. If you're investing, you go for the more likely winner, and that is Upper Deck.

And for the record, not all great innovations were because of Upper Deck. They put jerseys in cards first, sure, but a lot of great innovations to cards have been brought in by smaller companies like Pacific (who is no longer in business) and In The Game (who doesn't have a license so makes Junior and Retired player cards), and UD has poached their good ideas. They made them "mainstream" first, so a lot of people think they invented the wheel, when they just copied the design.
Actually you're flat out wrong.

ITG has never made a major innovation...name ONE. By the way if you buy packs of UV coated cards from the very early 90s, the cards are often stuck together. If you open packs of ITG from the mid 2000s of ITG, the cards are stuck together. That's because they use cheap stuff to make their cards.

And Panini never produced legit trading cards before they bullied their way in to the market. The basketball hobby is pretty much being ruined by them, ask any dealer who had been in business a long time. And the fact that Panini sealed product goes down in value is FACT. The fact that Panini has no brand tradition so they bought the failed Pinnacle brands is FACT. UD is not perfect and they are not the only legit card maker. But you're just a UD hater. It's the Veruca Salt syndrome.

Maybe if you decided to fully research every innovation like I have, not just what you like but what the hobby goes for and in an UNBIASED way, you'd find the same thing.

You can claim what you want but the market dictates what is popular. UD in hockey outsells Panini and ITG combined.

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08-21-2013, 02:53 PM
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManofSteel55 View Post
Couldn't, or wouldn't, lol. Hockey players have been stiffed on royalties by UD in the past too (Mats Sundin stopped signing auto cards because he wasn't getting paid). UD does the best in hockey because they have had the market share for longer. Topps has always been competitive in the other sports, and sometimes more popular. But Upper Deck was in hockey before Topps was, and has more collectors as a result. The exclusive deal they had starting in 2005 killed all competition, and UD had the entire market. Quality suffered (in terms of card condition), as did customer service, but they brought out some interesting products then for sure. Now they do best in hockey, I believe, because its their only licensed major sport left. If they lose hockey, they have almost no credibility left.
So...you're making conjecture. Yes, it's a fact that at times they couldn't pay. But why they didn't or couldn't you don't know the reason. All I know is 99% of the players still sign for UD and they have Crosby and Gretzky (and Orr and others) as spokesmen. Yes that one player you mentioned won't sign for UD. But all the others do.

Actually when they had the exclusive, the hobby started to heal because UD would start regulating inserts and rookie classes to bring more balance both to them and the dealers. Maybe you don't remember this because you weren't paying attention but UD brought back O Pee Chee during that time. It created a HUGE buzz in Canada and suddenly people were buying single base cards. People were plunking down money on a sealed product that had almost no high end, only one jersey card per box, and people collected the cards to build sets. That was only possible due to the exclusive because no other company could escalate that tier's product (now it's Score).

And you blame UD's behavior in hockey during that exclusive time...and you praise Panini...you realize the brand manager for hockey in Panini is the same guy who used to manage UD during that UD exclusive era, right??? Or is that another fact that escapes you because it inconveniently doesn't fit your forgone conclusion?

And stop distorting facts. UD has been overall the #1 maker of hockey cards since 1990. Not right now, not the 90s, the WHOLE time. Every major innovation from high end cards to on-card autographs to game jersey and memorabilia cards to counterfeit-proof to acetate cards to shield cards to using materials from the draft to booklet cards to carefully focusing rookie classes and finding rookies to put on cards to using artists commissioned fine paintings on cards to making national team subsets to Young Guns. The number of major innovations that are loved by hobbyists and copied by ITG and Panini. They also are NOT responsible for all of the bad innovations like parallels, serial numbering, and other junk ideas that any (non-hockey fan and non-card collecting fan) idiot could come up with...they also didn't invent redemptions.

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08-21-2013, 03:13 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
The major difference between retail and hobby are the odds of pulling jersey cards (about half that of hobby) and the retail do not contain acetate or UD exclusive (numbered 1:100) parallel sets. The issue is that jersey cards aren't worth that much and neither are parrallel cards. Unless you get an exclusive of a star, which is unlikely, no one really wants it. For instance, I was unable to sell my Maxim Talbot UD exclusive card on ebay for $1.50.

If they are the packs of 5, that means they are the blaster pack version, with Young Guns coming 1:6. In regular retail and hobby, the packs contain 8 cards, and the Young Guns are 1:4.

The 2008/9 year is loaded with a lot of good Young Guns rookies: Stamkos, Giroux, and Doughty being the 3 biggest. Just make sure that you are getting Series 1.

So it really comes down to how cheap you are getting the packs. For 2008/09 and 2009/10 Series 1, I think it makes more sense to go retail than hobby. Retail boxes are going for about half the price. The big draw with these sets is the Young Guns, as there are some big ones in there that will be hit fairly often. The extra jersey or longshot at a valuable hobby exclusive card, do not make up for the added price of the hobby boxes (usually double the price).

I ordered 3 boxes of 2009/10 retail ($32/box). I hope to have these in the next day or two. I'll let you know how the break goes and if it was worth it or not.
This is good info. One thing I want to add...Exclusives /100 are serial numbed and thus do not appear in retail. Nothing that is super-limited or serial numbered appears in retail because retail product is designed for retail stores to order in huge amounts. It's difficult for any manufacturer to figure out these numbers in order to seed rare cards. Plus these packs are often searched in the retail store. So in this case, UD relies on YGs and GJs to sell this product.

On a tangent note, retail sells a ton in the US and Canada. Imagine just how many retail packs on top of the hobby packs sold that are driven by Youn Guns. It wouldn't surprise me if in a year UD base brand, on the strength of Young Guns, outsold the entire company of ITG products, both in dollars and quantity, and outsold Panini's top three brands combined.

Young Guns is something UD has only for hockey (no idea why, it's just a fact). That sub brand is more powerful in hockey than any other BRAND in any sport card collecting except for maybe Topps and Bowman baseball brands. Those two Topps' owned brands are very strong, although Bowman couldn't be made in hockey...it's main allure is printing "rookie cards" of players way before they make the Majors, which the NHL would not allow.


Last edited by Rorschach: 08-21-2013 at 03:33 PM.
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08-21-2013, 04:52 PM
  #244
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This is good info. One thing I want to add...Exclusives /100 are serial numbed and thus do not appear in retail. Nothing that is super-limited or serial numbered appears in retail because retail product is designed for retail stores to order in huge amounts. It's difficult for any manufacturer to figure out these numbers in order to seed rare cards. Plus these packs are often searched in the retail store. So in this case, UD relies on YGs and GJs to sell this product.

On a tangent note, retail sells a ton in the US and Canada. Imagine just how many retail packs on top of the hobby packs sold that are driven by Youn Guns. It wouldn't surprise me if in a year UD base brand, on the strength of Young Guns, outsold the entire company of ITG products, both in dollars and quantity, and outsold Panini's top three brands combined.

Young Guns is something UD has only for hockey (no idea why, it's just a fact). That sub brand is more powerful in hockey than any other BRAND in any sport card collecting except for maybe Topps and Bowman baseball brands. Those two Topps' owned brands are very strong, although Bowman couldn't be made in hockey...it's main allure is printing "rookie cards" of players way before they make the Majors, which the NHL would not allow.
From a new collector's perspective, I can say Young Guns are definitely the most exciting product. For whatever reason, they are the standard for "rookie card".

You being to realize after a while that /100, jersey cards, and even autos are so common these days, any single set of them really isn't all that collectable. Something like a Crosby auto will always have value, but even his jersey cards can be had for under $20.

As for ITG, they are definitely more of a specialty product. I think they've done some quite creative things to get customers too. That ITG:1972 hobby set was incredible. Tons of great autos in there. Also the Enforcers set gets a lot of buzz. The yearly Between the Pipes and Heroes and Prospects are just a lot of fun to break.

In terms of a classic base set though, nothing beats UD Series 1 though. In terms of value though, Panini and ITG are putting out some great products and don't deserve to be totally excluded.

I'm not a collector of the ultra premium stuff (IE the Cup, ITG superlative, etc...), so I can't really comment at all on the upper range.

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08-21-2013, 06:07 PM
  #245
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With the /100, since the number is predetermined, they can't make any more or less if retail chains ask for more product. Base cards, YGs and jerseys, they can make more of those any time, no problem.

That's why no rare items are in retail. No /15 patches, no /10 or /100 Exclusives or HG, no /100 or /50 Clearcuts, etc. The quantities of those cards are set for the print run of Hobby.

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08-21-2013, 06:54 PM
  #246
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So...you're making conjecture. Yes, it's a fact that at times they couldn't pay. But why they didn't or couldn't you don't know the reason. All I know is 99% of the players still sign for UD and they have Crosby and Gretzky (and Orr and others) as spokesmen. Yes that one player you mentioned won't sign for UD. But all the others do.

Actually when they had the exclusive, the hobby started to heal because UD would start regulating inserts and rookie classes to bring more balance both to them and the dealers. Maybe you don't remember this because you weren't paying attention but UD brought back O Pee Chee during that time. It created a HUGE buzz in Canada and suddenly people were buying single base cards. People were plunking down money on a sealed product that had almost no high end, only one jersey card per box, and people collected the cards to build sets. That was only possible due to the exclusive because no other company could escalate that tier's product (now it's Score).

And you blame UD's behavior in hockey during that exclusive time...and you praise Panini...you realize the brand manager for hockey in Panini is the same guy who used to manage UD during that UD exclusive era, right??? Or is that another fact that escapes you because it inconveniently doesn't fit your forgone conclusion?

And stop distorting facts. UD has been overall the #1 maker of hockey cards since 1990. Not right now, not the 90s, the WHOLE time. Every major innovation from high end cards to on-card autographs to game jersey and memorabilia cards to counterfeit-proof to acetate cards to shield cards to using materials from the draft to booklet cards to carefully focusing rookie classes and finding rookies to put on cards to using artists commissioned fine paintings on cards to making national team subsets to Young Guns. The number of major innovations that are loved by hobbyists and copied by ITG and Panini. They also are NOT responsible for all of the bad innovations like parallels, serial numbering, and other junk ideas that any (non-hockey fan and non-card collecting fan) idiot could come up with...they also didn't invent redemptions.
I'm not praising Panini, just trying to let everyone know that Upper Deck is number one, but not the only product available, and that Panini isn't as bad as you claim them to be.

As per revisionist history, you seem to forget that parallels and serial numbering drove the hobby for a long, long time, and some of the technologies used in them was not Upper Deck's design. High end cards? Vintage buddy, not Upper Deck. I also am certain that you are incorrect with booklet cards, I'm positive that Topps did those first in other sports. "Counterfeit proof" cards don't exist. They exist in every company. Autograph cards in every pack were done by Upper Deck, autographed cards were available as inserts in early Score and Pro Set. Upper Deck didn't invent the autograph card. I also wouldn't give them any more credit than anyone else for rookie classes. Some of the innovations you listed are correct, but to say they are the only player in the game is simply false. You're obviously a fan of Upper Deck, I'm not saying they don't make a good product, they certainly do. But you're crapping on all other products, and showing your bias. I especially don't get the hate for Panini, they came out with some interesting sets with unique designs and a big positive is that their sets don't look the same every year, unlike most of Upper Deck's. The differences between SP Authentic each year is minimal. Ditto for The Cup. Casual collectors would (and do) have a hard time seeing the difference between years. They aren't god when it comes to hockey cards. There are other options.

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08-21-2013, 06:56 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
From a new collector's perspective, I can say Young Guns are definitely the most exciting product. For whatever reason, they are the standard for "rookie card".

You being to realize after a while that /100, jersey cards, and even autos are so common these days, any single set of them really isn't all that collectable. Something like a Crosby auto will always have value, but even his jersey cards can be had for under $20.

As for ITG, they are definitely more of a specialty product. I think they've done some quite creative things to get customers too. That ITG:1972 hobby set was incredible. Tons of great autos in there. Also the Enforcers set gets a lot of buzz. The yearly Between the Pipes and Heroes and Prospects are just a lot of fun to break.

In terms of a classic base set though, nothing beats UD Series 1 though. In terms of value though, Panini and ITG are putting out some great products and don't deserve to be totally excluded.

I'm not a collector of the ultra premium stuff (IE the Cup, ITG superlative, etc...), so I can't really comment at all on the upper range.
Great post.

Personally, I find that ITG has some of the most creative cards out there. My favorite set of all time is one of theirs, 04/05 Franchises, from when they had a license. It blows anything from the other companies out of the water in my opinion. Its too bad they can't get a license to give collectors another option, because I'm sure they would make a quality product with current NHL'ers as well, like they used to.

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08-21-2013, 08:00 PM
  #248
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Here's something funny.

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08-21-2013, 08:11 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by ManofSteel55 View Post
Great post.

Personally, I find that ITG has some of the most creative cards out there. My favorite set of all time is one of theirs, 04/05 Franchises, from when they had a license. It blows anything from the other companies out of the water in my opinion. Its too bad they can't get a license to give collectors another option, because I'm sure they would make a quality product with current NHL'ers as well, like they used to.
Actually Dr. Price has stated openly and quite recently they were offered a chance to buy a license by the NHL but turned it down. The only reason I can see is that the price was too high. If you believe in ITG, and they have a few fans and own a few percentage points of the marketplace despite having no license, then you shouldn't support Panini at all. Panini is one that help jack up the price of the license so that even a big manufacturer Topps said "no" let alone a small company like ITG.

Not sure it would have mattered though. At this point in time the major dealers and distributors have had a lot of friction dealing with ITG. Every time I visit a card shop or major dealer at a show that carries hockey, I ask them how their ITG sells. They tell me that they still have leftover product from the last time they tried ITG product, they get complaints from purchasers that the product was really shoddy and for some reason they love to mention to me, without being asked, how difficult it was to deal with them/him.

I've been to shops all around the US and some in Canada. These are what I observed. Some of these places are the biggest dealers in the world.

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08-21-2013, 09:29 PM
  #250
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a box of regular Upper Deck S1 from 11-12 or before is nice and solid too.
How much would these run

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