HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Non-goaltenders in goal

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-09-2013, 09:49 AM
  #1
Doctor No
HFB Partner
 
Doctor No's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,378
vCash: 50
Non-goaltenders in goal

This will be a rather specific request.

The official QMJHL records show Beauport defenseman Stephane Madore playing in Beauport's April 6, 1994 playoff contest against Chicoutimi. Moreover, it shows Madore stopping 40 of 43 shots in a 5-3 win.

This is odd to begin with, and what gives me pause is that the Harfangs' regular goaltender that playoff year was Stephane Menard. So it seems reasonable that a scorekeeper would have transcribed it incorrectly.

Anyone with better Google skills than I able to reconcile this mystery?

Doctor No is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 10:37 AM
  #2
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 31,431
vCash: 500
^^^ Ya, thats obviously the case. Error in transcription. Unless backup Steve Vezina also went down, and even at that someone from AAA quickly scrounged up Im sure... and Vezina there, is a distant relative of Georges.... got himself into serious trouble down in LA I believe it was while playing goal in the Roller Hockey Intl League when he tested positive for banned substances.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 11:06 AM
  #3
Doctor No
HFB Partner
 
Doctor No's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,378
vCash: 50
It's probably a transcription error; I'm still holding out hope that it's genuine, just because I love stories like this (you're right that it would be weird that Menard and Vezina were both out).

It happened every now and then back then; for instance, I believe that Marc Lirette's appearance in 1994-95 is genuine:

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/lirette.html

Five goals on seventeen shots sounds like a player stepping into goal. Going through the 1994-95 game logs, I can't find the exact date where Lirette allegedly played, either.

(As an aside, the QMJHL has done a fantastic job at building up their stats database online - I've been going back year-by-year and filling in the details. The "Q" is an important league to do this for in order to evaluate goaltender seasons, simply because league-average save percentages are so much lower, and so a 90% save percentage actually means superstar instead of just average).

Doctor No is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 11:15 AM
  #4
Doctor No
HFB Partner
 
Doctor No's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,378
vCash: 50
Here's the game in question for Madore (likely Menard):

http://38.108.70.85/lang_en/index.ph...d_partie=13727

C1958 thinks that it's probably due to Joe Canale's illegible handwriting (seems plausible). I'll send a note to the league and see if they can shed any light.

Doctor No is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 11:38 AM
  #5
nutbar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,592
vCash: 500
I still have some copies of the Hockey News from 1994 lying around somewhere. I'll try to dig them out and see if anything is mentioned in them.

nutbar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 11:39 AM
  #6
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 31,431
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Five goals on seventeen shots sounds like a player stepping into goal.
Ya I enjoy those tales as well. This Lirette guy, Right Winger
apparently. 3 Seasons with the Laval Titan, QSPHL & UHL...

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2013, 09:49 AM
  #7
Doctor No
HFB Partner
 
Doctor No's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,378
vCash: 50
Final note - just heard back from the QMJHL, and it was definitely Menard in goal for the April 6 game against Chicoutimi. They're going to correct their database in the near term.

The QMJHL is awesome, by the way - I can't believe that something that's this trivial was resolved within 24 hours. And they've got by far the best website for historical research.

Thanks all for the help!

Doctor No is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2013, 11:34 AM
  #8
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 31,431
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
The QMJHL is awesome, by the way - I can't believe that something that's this trivial was resolved within 24 hours. And they've got by far the best website for historical research.
Good job Taco.... and ya, the 'Q' administratively is an excellent organization huh? Recently had their own Hall of Fame inductions, Felix Potvin going in, and who recently was appointed Head Coach of the Quebec AAA Midget League's (the main feeder for the QMJHL) Magog team, having previously been that clubs Goalie Coach.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2013, 08:04 PM
  #9
Doctor No
HFB Partner
 
Doctor No's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,378
vCash: 50
Found another one that looks legit - Steve Ares, a rightwing with Granby in 1992-93, came in after Steve Plouffe had a disastrous two periods-plus (again against Chicoutimi).

http://38.108.70.85/lang_en/index.ph...d_partie=12824

As best as I can piece it together, Martin Brochu was traded to Hull in mid-February, and Sebastien Dupuis was (I believe) injured for the rest of the season, leaving Plouffe as the only able-bodied goaltender.

Then the Granby goaltender pairs were:
February 16: Plouffe / Ares (DNP)
February 19: Plouffe / Ares
February 22: Plouffe / Pascal Vincent (DNP)
February 28: Plouffe / Ares (DNP)
March 1: Plouffe / Vincent (who allowed 4 goals on 4 shots)
March 3: Plouffe / Pascal Gagnon (DNP)
March 5: Plouffe / Vincent
March 10: Plouffe / Martin Belanger (DNP)
March 12: Plouffe / Vincent (DNP)
March 16: Plouffe / Belanger (DNP)
March 19: Plouffe / Belanger (DNP)
March 21: Plouffe / Belanger (DNP)

Gaston Drapeau was Granby's coach at the time - I'd love to know more about what was actually going at this point. Gagnon and Belanger were defensemen, while Vincent appears to have been a "real" goaltender.

(Some of the links above won't work yet until I update my own database "live").

Anyhow, I'm changing the thread title into something perhaps a bit more interesting and encompassing.

Doctor No is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2013, 09:07 PM
  #10
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 31,431
vCash: 500
Connor Crisp, a 17yr old Centre with the Erie Otters who early in the season had suffered a shoulder injury and hadnt played at all was listed as the Backup in a game in March 2012, the regular Backup either ill or injured. Shortly into the game against the Niagara Falls Ice Dogs, the Otters Starter got ran, taken out of the game, Crisp forced into duty. He had played Goal in Road & Roller Hockey as a kid 10+ years earlier but still... so after a 20minute break while he gets ready, steps into the crease. Let in 13 goals on something like 46 shots, Erie losing 13-4, but Crisp there, voted 1st Star of the Game for his valiant effort.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2013, 09:24 PM
  #11
Doctor No
HFB Partner
 
Doctor No's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,378
vCash: 50
Excellent example on Crisp - here's the game in question:

http://www.ontariohockeyleague.com/s...how/game/59245

What bothers me about the OHL (just to pick one thing) is that if you look up the season statistics for Erie in 2011-12, Crisp isn't listed as playing in goal at all.

Doctor No is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2013, 09:40 PM
  #12
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 14,072
vCash: 500
Trade/Roster Deadline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Found another one that looks legit - Steve Ares, a rightwing with Granby in 1992-93, came in after Steve Plouffe had a disastrous two periods-plus (again against Chicoutimi).

http://38.108.70.85/lang_en/index.ph...d_partie=12824

As best as I can piece it together, Martin Brochu was traded to Hull in mid-February, and Sebastien Dupuis was (I believe) injured for the rest of the season, leaving Plouffe as the only able-bodied goaltender.

Then the Granby goaltender pairs were:
February 16: Plouffe / Ares (DNP)
February 19: Plouffe / Ares
February 22: Plouffe / Pascal Vincent (DNP)
February 28: Plouffe / Ares (DNP)
March 1: Plouffe / Vincent (who allowed 4 goals on 4 shots)
March 3: Plouffe / Pascal Gagnon (DNP)
March 5: Plouffe / Vincent
March 10: Plouffe / Martin Belanger (DNP)
March 12: Plouffe / Vincent (DNP)
March 16: Plouffe / Belanger (DNP)
March 19: Plouffe / Belanger (DNP)
March 21: Plouffe / Belanger (DNP)

Gaston Drapeau was Granby's coach at the time - I'd love to know more about what was actually going at this point. Gagnon and Belanger were defensemen, while Vincent appears to have been a "real" goaltender.

(Some of the links above won't work yet until I update my own database "live").

Anyhow, I'm changing the thread title into something perhaps a bit more interesting and encompassing.
From the late season dates I would surmise that the trade deadline had passed, rosters were frozen and the depth back-ups were hurt or otherwise unavailable.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2013, 09:41 PM
  #13
Doctor No
HFB Partner
 
Doctor No's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,378
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
From the late season dates I would surmise that the trade deadline had passed, rosters were frozen and the depth back-ups were hurt or otherwise unavailable.
Ah, that's probably it - trade deadline aspects in the major juniors always confuse me. You'd think that the league would have thrown them a bone or something (the Bisons were nowhere near the playoffs) and bent the rules.

On the other hand, as someone who appreciates this kind of thing, I'm glad that they did it.

EDIT: as it turns out, Pascal Vincent was not only not a goaltender, he was "the" Pascal Vincent (current Winnipeg assistant):

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=5583

Oddly, his Winnipeg bio doesn't mention even playing for Granby:
http://jets.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=72638

It could be a mistake in Ralph's page, but how many Pascal Vincents are there playing in the Q at that time (so I think Ralph's page is correct)?

Doctor No is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2013, 10:21 PM
  #14
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 14,072
vCash: 500
Available Goalies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Ah, that's probably it - trade deadline aspects in the major juniors always confuse me. You'd think that the league would have thrown them a bone or something (the Bisons were nowhere near the playoffs) and bent the rules.

On the other hand, as someone who appreciates this kind of thing, I'm glad that they did it.

EDIT: as it turns out, Pascal Vincent was not only not a goaltender, he was "the" Pascal Vincent (current Winnipeg assistant):

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=5583

Oddly, his Winnipeg bio doesn't mention even playing for Granby:
http://jets.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=72638

It could be a mistake in Ralph's page, but how many Pascal Vincents are there playing in the Q at that time (so I think Ralph's page is correct)?
Other goalies would have to be willing to play for the team at such a late date and the team would have to assume a lot of additional costs.

A 17 year old in Junior or midget AAA may risk his school year, his NCAA eligibility or the chance to go deep in the playoff with his team with no guarantee of playing time. Older goalies would risk a CEGEP or university semester. Costly down the road.

Not really an emergency rather poor management.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2013, 10:32 PM
  #15
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 31,431
vCash: 500
... and of course Detroit Trainer Lefty Wilson. Though he had been a decent enough Junior & Minor-Pro player. Got called on 3X's in the 50's to fill-in for injured Goalies; with Detroit, the Leafs when Lumley went down, Boston when I think it was Simmons that got hurt. Anyway, in over 80 minutes all combined, Old Lefty there was quite spectacular. 0.71 GAA. Jack Adams when asked what he thought of Leftys goaltending skills replied that "as a goalie, he makes for a better trainer" or words to that affect. Rodney Dangerfield of Goalkeepers I guess.


Last edited by Killion: 07-10-2013 at 10:41 PM.
Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-11-2013, 07:37 AM
  #16
BM67
Registered User
 
BM67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In "The System"
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,618
vCash: 500
Harry Mummery is probably the all-time NHL leader with 4 game and 192 minutes in the early 20s.

King Clancy or Charlie Conacher probably had the most appearances as a penalty fill in. Clancy did it at least 3 times in the regular season, plus at least once in the playoffs. Conacher was used twice in 32-33, and at the rate the NHL misses replacements in the records, he probably has more than just the 2 injury replacements listed officially in the records.

It would have happened a lot more if the NHL wasn't willing to take long delays to get the goalie patched up so he could resume playing after an injury.

BM67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-11-2013, 09:09 AM
  #17
Doctor No
HFB Partner
 
Doctor No's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,378
vCash: 50
I believe that Jerry Toppazzini was the last (in 1960 or so) in the NHL to do so; I know that Total Hockey mentions it, but my copy is in storage at the moment.

One of my dreams is to compile a somewhat-canonical list.

Doctor No is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-11-2013, 09:10 AM
  #18
Doctor No
HFB Partner
 
Doctor No's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,378
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
It would have happened a lot more if the NHL wasn't willing to take long delays to get the goalie patched up so he could resume playing after an injury.
The delays thing is particularly important - and it's actually the fact that games started to be nationally televised that the league mandated two goaltenders dressed for each game.

Doctor No is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-11-2013, 11:50 AM
  #19
Sanf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 773
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
Harry Mummery is probably the all-time NHL leader with 4 game and 192 minutes in the early 20s.
Mummery also has winning record . In the last game of 1919-1920 season Quebec won Ottawa with Mummery (from start to finish) in goal. So the weakest team of that season won the best team with defenseman in their goal.

Ottawa had already secured NHL championship and was resting Nighbor and probably their mind were already on upcoming Stanley cup final but still its pretty absurd.

Also a non-goalies in goal question. Does anyone know in which game this incident happen? (Three different players playing in goal during the same goalie penalty.)
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...008,1094873&dq

Sanf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-11-2013, 12:06 PM
  #20
Doctor No
HFB Partner
 
Doctor No's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,378
vCash: 50
Very interesting story - I like hearing Irvin's tales. Not sure when it would have happened (and it could be apocryphal - there's no fun in telling a boring story).

Doctor No is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-11-2013, 03:38 PM
  #21
BM67
Registered User
 
BM67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In "The System"
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,618
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanf View Post
Mummery also has winning record . In the last game of 1919-1920 season Quebec won Ottawa with Mummery (from start to finish) in goal. So the weakest team of that season won the best team with defenseman in their goal.

Ottawa had already secured NHL championship and was resting Nighbor and probably their mind were already on upcoming Stanley cup final but still its pretty absurd.

Also a non-goalies in goal question. Does anyone know in which game this incident happen? (Three different players playing in goal during the same goalie penalty.)
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...008,1094873&dq
March 15th, 1932 Toronto 2 at Boston 6

Irvin had better luck using Charlie Conacher next season, as Charlie stopped all 6 shots he faced.

BM67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-13-2013, 06:44 PM
  #22
SchultzSquared*
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 2,754
vCash: 500
Saw something interesting when reading one of thse Dink Caroll columns that Canadiens1958 posts (thanks for those BTW)...

In the February 10 1958 Gazette, right under the "Playing the Field" column...

"RINK MAN WINDS UP IN GOAL AS ROYALS LOSE TO SAGS 10-2"



This would of course be the old QHL which came out of the QSHL... if you think the NHL teams at that time had it rough... well none of them ever had to recruit the rink sweeper!

SchultzSquared* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-13-2013, 07:21 PM
  #23
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 31,431
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
Saw something interesting...
.... good find.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2013, 07:41 AM
  #24
Psycho Papa Joe
Porkchop Hoser
 
Psycho Papa Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cesspool, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,349
vCash: 500
Back in the late-70's, due to a series of odd events, the Leafs weren't able to dress a backup and if Mcrae hadn't been able to complete the game, Ian Turnbull was set to play goal. That's the last time I can recall a position player almost playing net in an NHL game.


Last edited by Psycho Papa Joe: 07-15-2013 at 08:02 AM.
Psycho Papa Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2013, 07:58 AM
  #25
Crease
Registered User
 
Crease's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 11,382
vCash: 500
The Lester Patrick incident is a fairly well-known story, but SI did a nice article on it back in 1961, titled The Day The Coach Played Goalie.

Quote:
On April 7, 1928 Lester Patrick, 44 years old and silver-haired, stood beside the New York Ranger bench in the Montreal Forum, watching intently the moves of his blue-shirted players. Two years earlier he had come down from Victoria, B.C. to pioneer the organization of the Rangers as their manager-coach. As a player he had been an outstanding defenseman for 20 years on various teams throughout Canada but, except for brief comebacks the previous two seasons, he hadn't played regularly for six years.
Quote:
It was still a scoreless tie early in the second period when suddenly the puck smashed into Ranger Goalie Lorne Chabot's left eye. Minutes later, in the dressing room, a doctor lifted a blood-smeared towel from Chabot's face. "The eye is bleeding badly," he told Patrick, who had rushed from the bench. "Get yourself a new goaltender."
Quote:
In the Ranger dressing room a few minutes later, Patrick angrily told his players how the Maroons had vetoed both Connell and McCormick. "Somebody here will have to put the pads on," Patrick said. After a few seconds of silence Leo Bourgault, a squash-nosed defenseman, spoke up, "I'll do it, Lester." But Frank Boucher, the Ranger captain, and Right Winger Bill Cook protested. "Look, Lester," Boucher said, "if Leo goes in the net we'll be short a man. You've done everything in hockey, and you're still in pretty good shape. You can go in there yourself. We won't let them get a good shot at you."
The Rangers went on to win 2-1 in OT, and eventually win the 1928 Stanley Cup with the help of Joe Miller, who had some NHL experience with the New York Americans.

Full Article

Crease is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:16 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2017 All Rights Reserved.