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Old
07-15-2013, 12:08 PM
  #26
Rocket Richard
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Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
Propsects are great and all, but at some point you need to **** our get off the pot.
Getting bounced in the first or second round is getting old, time for these kids to man up and win a Cup before Murray turns 80 or 90. Hopefully that happens in the next 3-5 years, because becoming the Expos of hockey (great young team, so much promise, on the rise, they'll surely win!) and then not coming through would be criminal.
Exactly! Furthermore Murray keeps making trades with the prospects that he claims he is rebuilding with. The story is getting old!

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07-15-2013, 12:21 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Rocket Richard View Post
Exactly! Furthermore Murray keeps making trades with the prospects that he claims he is rebuilding with. The story is getting old!
What?


He dealt a 20 year old David Rundblad for a 22 year old Kyle Turris... And now the Ryan/Noesen/Silf deal.


... how is this an epidemic pattern?

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Old
07-15-2013, 01:07 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
What's funny is we had at least 4 30-point defencemen, one of the most dominant lines in hockey, good secondary scoring and a prime Alfredsson too.

Don't think we have anyone on our team outside the coach that has won the Cup, so we're lacking in that department. Veteran presence outside that isn't that great either, Phillips is about it.

Propsects are great and all, but at some point you need to **** our get off the pot.
Getting bounced in the first or second round is getting old, time for these kids to man up and win a Cup before Murray turns 80 or 90. Hopefully that happens in the next 3-5 years, because becoming the Expos of hockey (great young team, so much promise, on the rise, they'll surely win!) and then not coming through would be criminal.
I don't get what you're saying here. On the one hand, you seem to be saying the rebuild is dragging on too long, we need to make moves to contend now, despite the team being just two seasons removed from imploding, and already having made the playoffs two consecutive years.

On the other hand, you're saying we have a 3-5 year window to compete, which is basically in line with when the Murrays expect the rebuild to be over and for us to be contenders.

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Originally Posted by Rocket Richard View Post
Exactly! Furthermore Murray keeps making trades with the prospects that he claims he is rebuilding with. The story is getting old!


What you're saying seems to contradict what SensFanDan is saying. You're criticizing Murray for turning prospects into young, proven roster players. SFD seems to be saying we should be doing exactly that - upgrading the roster with proven commodities so that we don't miss our window while hoping prospects pan out.

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Old
07-15-2013, 01:27 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
I don't get what you're saying here. On the one hand, you seem to be saying the rebuild is dragging on too long, we need to make moves to contend now, despite the team being just two seasons removed from imploding, and already having made the playoffs two consecutive years.

On the other hand, you're saying we have a 3-5 year window to compete, which is basically in line with when the Murrays expect the rebuild to be over and for us to be contenders.





What you're saying seems to contradict what SensFanDan is saying. You're criticizing Murray for turning prospects into young, proven roster players. SFD seems to be saying we should be doing exactly that - upgrading the roster with proven commodities so that we don't miss our window while hoping prospects pan out.
I don't think either one knows exactly what they are talking about. Apparently trading prospects for other established talent doesn't sit well with them. Plus, making the playoffs in the first 2 years of a rebuild with young kids for the most part doesn't seem to satisfy them either.

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07-15-2013, 02:08 PM
  #30
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Murry took a 1st and a 2nd turned it into a 3rd overall

Then he took a 2 firsts and a 2nd and turned it into a 2nd overall.

Both wins in my book.

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07-15-2013, 02:37 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Qward View Post
Murry took a 1st and a 2nd turned it into a 3rd overall

Then he took a 2 firsts and a 2nd and turned it into a 2nd overall.

Both wins in my book.
Agreed, and the fact that both of those guys are not 18 years old makes it even better. They have been developed along the way and have (Turrris)/will(Ryan) make an impact right away.

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Old
07-15-2013, 03:12 PM
  #32
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To anyone to thinks we're better off without trades, I suggest you a poll on the board to see which set of players get picked more:

Stefan Noesen, Jakob Silfverberg, Nick Foligno, David Rundblad, 1st rounder, and 2X2nd rounder.

Or

Bobby Ryan, Kyle Turris, Cory Conacher, Marc Methot, 4th rounder.

Two seasons ago we weren't expected to be a very good team, yet somehow we started off well enough to be in the playoff picture which surprised most Senators fans. Despite being competitive, we had visible flaws on the team, specifically at centre. DaCosta wasn't ready for anything more than an AHLer and Zibanejad was only able to stay for a cup of coffee. Meanwhile, a GOOD 2nd line centre was available in Turris who might even be good enough to replace Spezza somewhere down the road. Rundblad playing like hot garbage and hasn't done much by absorb AHL minutes in Phoenix since. Turris has since saved TWO Ottawa Senator seasons now and I can't think of a single Senator fan who would reverse the trade.

Last year we lost an older player in Kuba to free agency and there was nothing available in free agency to replace him. Murray traded an RFA we couldn't afford (Foligno) for what became a top pairing defenseman for us last year in Methot. On the strength of this trade, we were AGAIN able to make the playoffs.

If Ottawa was still struggling and still bad, then Murray would be clutching prospects for dear life, hoping that one day in the future they'll be good enough to make the playoffs. The reality is that the rebuild is going well. We're getting younger every year, our Bingo core is developing together into a leadership group, and we finally have long term solutions at positions where there was NOTHING before.

It's not as if our prospect depth is suffering either. At the beginning of the 2011/12 NHL season, the following players have entered the Ottawa Senators system and the following players have left the Ottawa Senators to graduation:

Zibanejad, Wiercioch, Gryba, Pageau, O'Brien, and Lehner. + others did not get retained.

Vs.

Lazar, Ceci, Wikstrand, Maidens, Robinson, and Dredgier, + other minor prospects.

From my perspective, it's pretty close. Yes, some guys like Rundblad, Noesen, and Silfverberg have moved on in exchange for making the main team better, but keep in mind, guys like Stone, Prince, Puempel, Borowiecki, Claesson, Wideman, etc... are all more polished prospects than they were 2 years ago as well. Our prospects are fine.

We're not looking too bad Graduation-wise either.


Last edited by IranCondraAffair: 07-15-2013 at 04:41 PM.
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Old
07-15-2013, 03:27 PM
  #33
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another thing to remember. Noesen was drafted with the pick we got from Fisher.

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07-15-2013, 03:43 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IranCondraAffair View Post
To anyone to thinks we're better off without trades, I suggest you a poll on the board to see which set of players get picked more:

Stefan Noesen, Jakob Silfverberg, Nick Foligno, David Rundblad, 1st rounder, and 2nd rounder.

Or

Bobby Ryan, Kyle Turris, Cory Conacher, Marc Methot, 4th rounder.

Two seasons ago we weren't expected to be a very good team, yet somehow we started off well enough to be in the playoff picture which surprised most Senators fans. Despite being competitive, we had visible flaws on the team, specifically at centre. DaCosta wasn't ready for anything more than an AHLer and Zibanejad was only able to stay for a cup of coffee. Meanwhile, a GOOD 2nd line centre was available in Turris who might even be good enough to replace Spezza somewhere down the road. Rundblad playing like hot garbage and hasn't done much by absorb AHL minutes in Phoenix since. Turris has since saved TWO Ottawa Senator seasons now and I can't think of a single Senator fan who would reverse the trade.

Last year we lost an older player in Kuba to free agency and there was nothing available in free agency to replace him. Murray traded an RFA we couldn't afford (Foligno) for what became a top pairing defenseman for us last year in Methot. On the strength of this trade, we were AGAIN able to make the playoffs.

If Ottawa was still struggling and still bad, then Murray would be clutching prospects for dear life, hoping that one day in the future they'll be good enough to make the playoffs. The reality is that the rebuild is going well. We're getting younger every year, our Bingo core is developing together into a leadership group, and we finally have long term solutions at positions where there was NOTHING before.

It's not as if our prospect depth is suffering either. At the beginning of the 2011/12 NHL season, the following players have entered the Ottawa Senators system and the following players have left the Ottawa Senators to graduation:

Zibanejad, Wiercioch, Gryba, Pageau, O'Brien, and Lehner. + others did not get retained.

Vs.

Lazar, Ceci, Wikstrand, Maidens, Robinson, and Dredgier, + other minor prospects.

From my perspective, it's pretty close. Yes, some guys like Rundblad, Noesen, and Silfverberg have moved on in exchange for making the main team better, but keep in mind, guys like Stone, Prince, Puempel, Borowiecki, Claesson, Wideman, etc... are all more polished prospects than they were 2 years ago as well. Our prospects are fine.

We're not looking too bad Graduation-wise either.
Bishop added to the first group, but point stands.

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Old
07-15-2013, 03:54 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Rocket Richard View Post
Exactly! Furthermore Murray keeps making trades with the prospects that he claims he is rebuilding with. The story is getting old!
Using prospects to get proven young players on the good side of their prime is in fact using prospects to rebuild. Key word in rebuild, is build.

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07-15-2013, 03:56 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Officer Farva View Post
Bishop added to the first group, but point stands.
Actually that's why the second round pick is in the first group.

Bishop should actually be in the second group as "Two half seasons of Ben Bishop"

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07-15-2013, 04:25 PM
  #37
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Isn't this the thing Laff-lovers were consoling themselves with when they sucked?

Not exactly great company to keep.

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Old
07-15-2013, 04:29 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by IranCondraAffair View Post
Actually that's why the second round pick is in the first group.

Bishop should actually be in the second group as "Two half seasons of Ben Bishop"
There should be 2 2nd round picks in the first group because Turris was for DR and a 2nd.

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Old
07-15-2013, 04:32 PM
  #39
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[QUOTE=SensFanDan;69204591]What's funny is we had at least 4 30-point defencemen, one of the most dominant lines in hockey, good secondary scoring and a prime Alfredsson too.

Don't think we have anyone on our team outside the coach that has won the Cup, so we're lacking in that department. Veteran presence outside that isn't that great either, Phillips is about it.

Propsects are great and all, but at some point you need to **** our get off the pot.
Getting bounced in the first or second round is getting old, time for these kids to man up and win a Cup before Murray turns 80 or 90. Hopefully that happens in the next 3-5 years, because becoming the Expos of hockey (great young team, so much promise, on the rise, they'll surely win!) and then not coming through would be criminal.[QUOTE]

Team probably did an adequate job surrounding the young group with quality veterans during a rebuild situation. If we don't move forward, it'll probably be because the talent isn't adequate, not because of experience. The 1st and 2nd round is pretty substantial for the collective of very young players we have, and for others it's built on the championship in the minors they won.

Better off just focusing on the fact that the team is ahead of where it was expected to be...and things are still basically going to plan. The talk of getting rich in prospects and using it for proven talent wasn't **** talk.

I'm surprised you care if Bryan Murray wins a cup though, somehow I think Tim's doing the brunt of the work anyways.

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07-15-2013, 04:41 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Senscore View Post
There should be 2 2nd round picks in the first group because Turris was for DR and a 2nd.
Good catch, fixed.

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Old
07-15-2013, 05:15 PM
  #41
Rocket Richard
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I'll eat my Internet Hat if the SENS get past the 2nd round next year, or the next!

Murray's been GM for 5 years now!

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Old
07-15-2013, 08:37 PM
  #42
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A simple click of the link tells you yes.
OTT 53.127 1.275 0.000 12.447 22 26.753
TOR 53.829 0.300 0.000 10.771 24 26.797
BUF 54.933 0.850 0.000 10.217 23 26.847

We're the youngest team at 26.753. Buffalo is actually third youngest.

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07-15-2013, 09:36 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Rocket Richard View Post
I'll eat my Internet Hat if the SENS get past the 2nd round next year, or the next!

Murray's been GM for 5 years now!
Is anyone really telling that they are GOING TO make it that far? They are the youngest team in the league on a self imposed cap. Without that cap, we may have a roster at this point that would be expected to make it that far.

Not sure many management groups around the league would have done this well. I'd say we have a better chance then last year getting to the 3rd round, but I can't say I expect it.

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07-16-2013, 07:03 AM
  #44
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Good to see. Just hope all our youth develop well and make us a strong team for yrs. to come.

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07-16-2013, 08:53 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
Is anyone really telling that they are GOING TO make it that far? They are the youngest team in the league on a self imposed cap. Without that cap, we may have a roster at this point that would be expected to make it that far.

Not sure many management groups around the league would have done this well. I'd say we have a better chance then last year getting to the 3rd round, but I can't say I expect it.
I definitely think Coaching and management expect it. No/Crippled Karlsson and Spezza got us to the second round, both healthy and Bobby Ryan is a better team (in theory). The 3rd round or better, is what their goal should be.

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07-16-2013, 08:58 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by SENSational Sens Fan View Post
OTT 53.127 1.275 0.000 12.447 22 26.753
TOR 53.829 0.300 0.000 10.771 24 26.797
BUF 54.933 0.850 0.000 10.217 23 26.847

We're the youngest team at 26.753. Buffalo is actually third youngest.
Yeah, the ages changed since my original post. We signed Condra, could be that.

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Old
07-16-2013, 10:16 AM
  #47
Rocket Richard
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
Is anyone really telling that they are GOING TO make it that far? They are the youngest team in the league on a self imposed cap. Without that cap, we may have a roster at this point that would be expected to make it that far.

Not sure many management groups around the league would have done this well. I'd say we have a better chance then last year getting to the 3rd round, but I can't say I expect it.
I wish!

With Boston, Detroit, Toronto, Buffalo, Tampa & Monteal in our division next year it will be very tough to make the Playoffs next year.

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Old
07-16-2013, 10:27 AM
  #48
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I wish!

With Boston, Detroit, Toronto, Buffalo, Tampa & Monteal in our division next year it will be very tough to make the Playoffs next year.
Not exactly the toughest assortment of teams right there...

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07-16-2013, 10:48 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
If only we had Schubert as our 6th defenceman and 12th forward today! And that creative dynamo Tyler Arnason. Let's get Bondra when we have a bunch of finesse scorers and no grinders! Let's trade Havlat for Tom Priessing! Ohhhhh the cap savings!!!!!

Seriously? Our depth is MASSIVELY better then under Muckler. We could go to the Finals with this team IMO. There are really no huge flaws in this team.

2006-07 --> 82 Game Point Paces:
Spezza = 106
Heatley = 105
Alfie = 103
Fisher = 58
Comrie = 57
Schaefer = 49
Vermette = 42
Saprykin = 42
Kelly = 38

Redden = 46
Corvo = 40
Preissing = 39
Meszaros = 35

Current Senators Career Best Pace:
Spezza = 109 (2006)
Ryan = 73 (2009)
Michalek = 69 (2007)
MacArthur = 62 (2011)
Conacher = 51 (2013)
Turris = 50 (2013)
Zibanejad = 39 (2013)
Greening = 37 (2012)
Neil = 34 (2006)

Karlsson = 79 (2012)
Corvo = 53 (2008)
Wiercioch = 37 (2013)
Phillips = 29 (2002)

Bottom line, if every single player on the team matched their career best season all at once... it might be comparable to the SCF's team. But odds of that are slim.

And the SCF's team was arguably quite a bit worse than the 2003-2006 Senators.

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Old
07-16-2013, 12:13 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Rocket Richard View Post
Exactly! Furthermore Murray keeps making trades with the prospects that he claims he is rebuilding with. The story is getting old!
Or he uses the media to pump up these prospects - lot's of press on Rundbald before he got traded, same with Silf this year. Seems like Murray is pretty good at getting the value of his prospects up to the point where you can trade them for a Turris or Ryan - great GM'ing.

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