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Don Cherry talks about Bozak and Clarkson

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07-09-2013, 04:04 PM
  #26
OptimusForever
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This guy is senile. No one should take what he says seriously.

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07-09-2013, 04:08 PM
  #27
ErnieLeafs
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
I dont know, JVR, Lupul and Kessel all had career years playing with Bozak. Look it up, its fact. Even more strange than that, each of those wingers had better center's than Bozak, yet had better numbers with this plug in the middle? The other evidence I can show you, is that Bozak is the defensively responsible player on that first line. If he werent, teams would score more goals against than the top line can produce. Not to mention Bozak is good on faceoffs and is an important part of the PK. Its a joke really, people chirp and complain that Bozak doesnt score more, hence he sucks. Scoring is not, and has not been a problem for the Leafs. Bozak is the player that allows his wingers to be successful with his defensive play and smarts. Another poster who equates scoring to being a good player.
No, I actually don't equate scoring, to being a good player. I equate being good at hockey, and the reality is, he just isn't that good at hockey.

If we're talking about scoring, he has two wingers that are in the upper echelon of scoring in the league, and can't reach 50 pts. One of those wingers is a top 6 winger in the league.

His faceoff ability was MARGINALLY better than Grabovski, the guy everyone took a dump on at every turn, and he was caught looking in his own end a lot last year. He's so good defensively, so for people that love to point out plus/minus stats, what's his career plus/minus on our highest scoring line? Against every other team's best checkers, not offensive lines?

Also, it doesn't take a genius to see the guy has hands of stone. He blows so many plays around the net, and his tunnel vision to pass to Kessel at all costs, often costs the team by being so predictable, it hurts. With his lack of finish, it doesn't help when the other team knows exactly what you're doing.

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07-09-2013, 04:08 PM
  #28
Didact
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
Do your homework, look at Lupul last season, not the most recent. How could Kessel not have a career year with a very talented and healthy Savard at the time, if it is Kessel doing all the heavy lifting anyway? You're not making any sense. It is fair to say Bozak is not a number one center, but what doesnt that matter? He is playing well in the middle, his linemates are doing extremely well with him there, and Bozak plays special teams, and is good defensively. He may not be your prototypical number 1, but he is doing what he needs to. I dont recall Anaheim fans chirping when Andy Macdonald was their number one center?
Kessel improved by his own merits. His natural evolution as a player, that got better as he got older. Had nothing much to do with Bozak at all. Are you satisfied with mediocrity? Andy McDonald was not a legit no.1 center but he was a legit top 6 forward that was capable of putting up points. I can't say that about Bozak.

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07-09-2013, 04:10 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Didact View Post
they all had career years playing with kessel, not Bozak, in lupul's case it was only 18 games this year and Kadri did more than good enough for him. I'm arguing that he's not a 1st line center (arguable if he's even a top 6 forward), and doesn't address our long term needs.
Just look at the correlation of offense between Kessel and Bozak. This myth has been disproven countless times.

The fanclub isn't having it.

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07-09-2013, 04:10 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by OptimusForever View Post
This guy is senile. No one should take what he says seriously.
yeah have it your way kadri would of been traded

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07-09-2013, 04:14 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by OptimusForever View Post
This guy is senile. No one should take what he says seriously.
I am sure he cares a lot about what OptimusForever thinks as well.

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07-09-2013, 04:18 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by CrankuptheSnakes View Post
No, I actually don't equate scoring, to being a good player. I equate being good at hockey, and the reality is, he just isn't that good at hockey.

If we're talking about scoring, he has two wingers that are in the upper echelon of scoring in the league, and can't reach 50 pts. One of those wingers is a top 6 winger in the league.

His faceoff ability was MARGINALLY better than Grabovski, the guy everyone took a dump on at every turn, and he was caught looking in his own end a lot last year. He's so good defensively, so for people that love to point out plus/minus stats, what's his career plus/minus on our highest scoring line? Against every other team's best checkers, not offensive lines?

Also, it doesn't take a genius to see the guy has hands of stone. He blows so many plays around the net, and his tunnel vision to pass to Kessel at all costs, often costs the team by being so predictable, it hurts. With his lack of finish, it doesn't help when the other team knows exactly what you're doing.
So your argument continues to be, you judge Bozak on his ability to score? Here is where we differ, part of the responsibilites of a center is to distribute the puck to the wingers and be the first forward back. This is what he does, and has done it well. You seem to skip over the other aspects of his game, and focus on scoring, which is not suprising. The successess of his wingers clearly demostrates his abilty to lift the play of his wingers, at both ends of the ice. Call it a fluke all you like, that is beyond circumstance that 3 very good wingers had career years with Bozak. The Leafs dont need more scoring. They need to improve defensive awareness.

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07-09-2013, 04:21 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Didact View Post
Kessel improved by his own merits. His natural evolution as a player, that got better as he got older. Had nothing much to do with Bozak at all. Are you satisfied with mediocrity? Andy McDonald was not a legit no.1 center but he was a legit top 6 forward that was capable of putting up points. I can't say that about Bozak.
What mediocrity are you talking about? There is nothing mediocre about Kessel in top 10 scoring in the NHL two years in a row, JVR and Lupul having career years, what is so mediocre about that? Thats a bit of an ignorant statement, you will have to explain what you mean by mediocre, beacuse the play of the 1st line has been very good. You should check your facts, Macdonald was the first line center for the Ducks.

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07-09-2013, 04:24 PM
  #34
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Bolland has a terrible back and was put on 4th line, we paid for him to be TRIED on 2nd is what Nonis said.

Then you have Clarkson guy that very possibly had a couple Grabo type years (maybe he is crap next year too).

Bernier has played 60 games he could suck it up for all we know.

I don't see these as upgrades but I do see getting rid of Bozak and upgrading to Weiss, Etc. Bobby Ryan would be an upgrade, real hockey players not guys on a probable high note or ones on a low.

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07-09-2013, 04:25 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
What mediocrity are you talking about? There is nothing mediocre about Kessel in top 10 scoring in the NHL two years in a row, JVR and Lupul having career years, what is so mediocre about that? Thats a bit of an ignorant statement, you will have to explain what you mean by mediocre, beacuse the play of the 1st line has been very good. You should check your facts, Macdonald was the first line center for the Ducks.
It has nothing to do with Bozak, it all has to do with Kessel.

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07-09-2013, 04:28 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
What mediocrity are you talking about? There is nothing mediocre about Kessel in top 10 scoring in the NHL two years in a row, JVR and Lupul having career years, what is so mediocre about that? Thats a bit of an ignorant statement, you will have to explain what you mean by mediocre, beacuse the play of the 1st line has been very good. You should check your facts, Macdonald was the first line center for the Ducks.
I'm talking about Bozak being mediocre. I don't know what you're rambling about. Leafs will not win a cup with Bozak as the 1st line center, arguable if he's even the 2nd line center. I would of been fine with a place holder for a couple of years (roy, etc) for 1-2 years if we didn't get a legit #1 (1b) center. I don't think McDonald was a legit top line center but he was passable. He was a legit top 6 forward, I can't say that on Bozak. During that cup year, Getzlaf was more dominant than McDonald. They had two good centers, we only have 1 . Didn't hurt they two hall of fame defencemen back there.

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07-09-2013, 04:29 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by The Legend View Post
I am sure he cares a lot about what OptimusForever thinks as well.
That's exactly the point. He's one guy, I'm one guy. Our opinions on the team are the same, one persons opinion.

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07-09-2013, 04:29 PM
  #38
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It has nothing to do with Bozak, it all has to do with Kessel.
I don't see that one bit. We'll agree to disagree.

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07-09-2013, 04:31 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Aplayaz2000 View Post
yeah have it your way kadri would of been traded
Or Don would've had Kadri up too early and he would've never developed into what he is today; an elite scoring threat.

You think Don *****ing on coaches corner had anything to do with kadri playing on the team this year? It didn't. It was Kadri's time and it was apparently the right time.

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07-09-2013, 04:32 PM
  #40
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I like grapes but his anti European stuff is getting really old (the part of the interview about euro goalies)

I get it Hockey is "Canada's" game, so what football, rugby, cricket, golf, tennis etc are all Britains games, it doesn't stop other countries being occasionally better at them than "us" (ok most of the time in the case of football)

He's becoming quite the bigot

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07-09-2013, 04:34 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Rare Jewel View Post
If it assists Kessel's re-signing, Than over paying by 500-700k will be worth it.
If our star player needs his bff to stay with us(spoilers it wouldn't, we'd still offer 8 years x 7.5+ for him) then I question his priorities.

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07-09-2013, 04:40 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Didact View Post
I'm talking about Bozak being mediocre. I don't know what you're rambling about. Leafs will not win a cup with Bozak as the 1st line center, arguable if he's even the 2nd line center. I would of been fine with a place holder for a couple of years (roy, etc) for 1-2 years if we didn't get a legit #1 (1b) center. I don't think McDonald was a legit top line center but he was passable. He was a legit top 6 forward, I can't say that on Bozak. During that cup year, Getzlaf was more dominant than McDonald. They had two good centers, we only have 1 . Didn't hurt they two hall of fame defencemen back there.
Again, how is Bozak medicore? Because he doesnt score much? Or is it because his line, and line mates have been very good? Getting more goals from the center iceman is not what ails the Leafs and is hodling them back. Now you go on about the Leafs never winning the cup with Bozak in the middle? I would love for you to prove that for me, look forward to it. What I can prove to you, is with Bozak as the number one center for the Leafs, the Leafs were 12 minutes from wining game 7 against the Stanley cup finalists. You may not have been watching hockey or are to young to remember, but it was Macdonald as the number 1 center for the Ducks, Getzlaf and Perry just came into the league. Why you mention Anaheims D, has nothing to do with the discusion. Your avoiding the questions, and brining no relevant topics to the discusion.

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07-09-2013, 04:41 PM
  #43
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Bozak should only have been signed with the intention of playing the third line. I've been saying that for a while now. Huge over payment, under producing, and can't hit 50 points while some of the leagues top scorers. Just because we can't find another center to fill that role doesn't mean you should overpay for Bozak. Only reason im not furious over that resigning is because the cap is going up quite a bit next year.

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07-09-2013, 04:53 PM
  #44
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Bozak got market value. I'm not a fan, but I don't dislike Bozak either, I think the reality is that he got what he would have gotten anywhere.

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07-09-2013, 04:58 PM
  #45
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That being said there is no clear upgrade path here. Tally the worth of what we gave up.

Frattin, Grabo+15m, Scrivens, 2x2nds 3x4ths

For Bernier and Bolland unproven and on the decline.

Ask yourself is that a good trade even if you get Clarkson free.

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07-09-2013, 05:02 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by theremedial View Post
That being said there is no clear upgrade path here. Tally the worth of what we gave up.

Frattin, Grabo+15m, Scrivens, 2x2nds 3x4ths

For Bernier and Bolland unproven and on the decline.

Ask yourself is that a good trade even if you get Clarkson free.
This team made the playoffs last year and was ten minutes away from eliminating an elite team. Keep in mind, the Leafs have one of the youngest teams in the league, I think it's a safe assumption that the majority of this roster only gets better. That being said, there weren't too many voids to fill minus a first line center, a nearly impossible position to fill via free agency, and a defensive dman, which likely is addressed.

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07-09-2013, 05:09 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Rare Jewel View Post
MacArther, Scrivens, Grabovski

out


Clarkson, Bernier, Bolland

in



And we're not better? Alright then.
MacArther, Scrivens, Grabovski, Frattin, Komorov

out

Clarkson, Bernier, Bolland, (Ashton), (D'Amigo)

in

........... but ya... we're still a lot better this year than last. the only guy i really didn't want to lose was Frattin... but if he gets us an elite goalie... i suppose it's worth it.

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07-09-2013, 05:12 PM
  #48
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I didn't want Bozak resigned but hey, not everything you want happens. I just hope he's not playing top line. This team has improved a lot from last year and not only that, we have more players that can mesh with Carlyle's system.

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07-09-2013, 05:13 PM
  #49
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Pretty sure Bozak was on pace to get close to 20 goals (if it would have been a full season). And what they overpaid on Bozak's contract might be a wash if they can save some money on Kessel's next contract compared to what he would get on the open market.

I'm not a huge Bozak fan, but I thought he played pretty well considering he is playing outside of where he should be playing (that being the 2nd or 3rd line).

I haven't been really able to listen to Don Cherry for over 5 years as he just seems to get more senile with every episode of coach's corner. Controversy gets ratings, so really Grapes is just doing his job. Unfortunately he ignores empirical evidence a lot of the time...

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07-09-2013, 05:16 PM
  #50
ErnieLeafs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
So your argument continues to be, you judge Bozak on his ability to score? Here is where we differ, part of the responsibilites of a center is to distribute the puck to the wingers and be the first forward back. This is what he does, and has done it well. You seem to skip over the other aspects of his game, and focus on scoring, which is not suprising. The successess of his wingers clearly demostrates his abilty to lift the play of his wingers, at both ends of the ice. Call it a fluke all you like, that is beyond circumstance that 3 very good wingers had career years with Bozak. The Leafs dont need more scoring. They need to improve defensive awareness.
I know a centre's responsibilities, I played the position for 8 years. I've got a pretty good idea of it.

And no, it's not just scoring. Bozak is a middle of the road, replaceable faceoff guy, who say wingers surge in production due to Phil Kessel. It has been proven, time and again. Why you choose to ignore it, I don't know, but it's there, and it's real.

He IS NOT that good defensively. That's a myth too. Again, just look at that whopping career minus, for those of you who love that stat as a defensive measure. Lookat how often he was coasting in our end and burned us (plenty).

You're just perpetuating myths. Everyone outside of the fan club, and in the objective media sees it.

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