HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Don Cherry talks about Bozak and Clarkson

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-09-2013, 05:18 PM
  #51
thewave
Registered User
 
thewave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 16,074
vCash: 500
So on the market you trade Frattin, Scrivens, Grabo +15m bonus, 2x2nds 3x4ths picks.

For

Bernier, Bolland

The fantastic deal I tell ya, a bad back and on the decline 4th line guy and 60game possible Toskala for all that. Lol jokers

thewave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 05:20 PM
  #52
080
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Guelph
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,546
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by theremedial View Post
That being said there is no clear upgrade path here. Tally the worth of what we gave up.

Frattin, Grabo+15m, Scrivens, 2x2nds 3x4ths

For Bernier and Bolland unproven and on the decline.

Ask yourself is that a good trade even if you get Clarkson free.
Really you need to write it as:

Grabo, Frattin, Scrivens, 2 2nd rounders, 3 4th rounders
for
Clarkson, Bolland, Bernier

And let's actually look at the quality of what we gave up -- not the quantity.

Scrivens is a back-up goalie that could be easily replaced via free agency if necessary. You can basically discount him right away as an important, or quality, asset.

Frattin is a second or third line winger. Again, he's a good player, but he's not in the echelon of player that rarely makes it to free agency. While I did like Frattin, he's someone who could be replaced without too much difficulty.

Grabovski is a hard-working second-line centre. While I like him as a player, I don't seem him as an irreplaceable asset.

What Nonis did, or attempted to do, was deal quantity for (what he deems anyway) quality; for players who are harder to find. Goalies with tremendous upside are hard to find; and players who play the same style and bring the same intangibles as Clarkson and Bolland are hard to find. What he gave up was not all that hard to find.

Nonis took a gamble by moving more easily acquired assets for more difficult to acquire assets.

080 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 05:23 PM
  #53
thewave
Registered User
 
thewave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 16,074
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 080 View Post
Really you need to write it as:

Grabo, Frattin, Scrivens, 2 2nd rounders, 3 4th rounders
for
Clarkson, Bolland, Bernier

And let's actually look at the quality of what we gave up -- not the quantity.

Scrivens is a back-up goalie that could be easily replaced via free agency if necessary. You can basically discount him right away as an important, or quality, asset.

Frattin is a second or third line winger. Again, he's a good player, but he's not in the echelon of player that rarely makes it to free agency. While I did like Frattin, he's someone who could be replaced without too much difficulty.

Grabovski is a hard-working second-line centre. While I like him as a player, I don't seem him as an irreplaceable asset.

What Nonis did, or attempted to do, was deal quantity for (what he deems anyway) quality; for players who are harder to find. Goalies with tremendous upside are hard to find; and players who play the same style and bring the same intangibles as Clarkson and Bolland are hard to find. What he gave up was not all that hard to find.

Nonis took a gamble by moving more easily acquired assets for more difficult to acquire assets.
If you include Clarkson you need to include Mac and Komi and everyone else. I tried to exclude FAs

thewave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 05:26 PM
  #54
Warden of the North
Global Moderator
hmmmmmmm
 
Warden of the North's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Muskoka
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Didact View Post
sign another plug with solid faceoffs skillls, decent defensive skills and slightly above hands for cheaper. Not thrilled that it's looking like bozy is the long term solution at the #1 slot.
Hes not paid like a 1c. If someone else emerges as a 1c then bozak slides down to #2, which he is paid like.

Warden of the North is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 05:31 PM
  #55
McLovin*
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 133
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by theremedial View Post
So on the market you trade Frattin, Scrivens, Grabo +15m bonus, 2x2nds 3x4ths picks.

For

Bernier, Bolland

The fantastic deal I tell ya, a bad back and on the decline 4th line guy and 60game possible Toskala for all that. Lol jokers
Maybe we should trade for Mike ****ing Cammalleri that you seem so supportive of?


Last edited by McLovin*: 07-09-2013 at 06:05 PM. Reason: quoted buffalo_sabre by accident, meant to quote theremedial
McLovin* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 05:31 PM
  #56
080
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Guelph
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,546
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by theremedial View Post
If you include Clarkson you need to include Mac and Komi and everyone else. I tried to exclude FAs
But those players likely weren't coming back anyway. Who is everyone else? Komisarek was playing in the minors and Komarov outright left to back to Russia. MacArthur was the only one who could have been re-signed. That assumes that he even wanted to come back or that we'd even want him back.

080 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 05:31 PM
  #57
Community
44 is Rielly good
 
Community's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Darkest Timeline
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,819
vCash: 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by theremedial View Post
If you include Clarkson you need to include Mac and Komi and everyone else. I tried to exclude FAs
I think all you need to know is 90% of fans are more excited about this roster than the roster at the end of the year? We've solidified our goaltending, solidified our top 9 (1 spot open for D'amigo or Ashton or Biggs or Ryan), without taking away from our defense. I'd rather have Clarkson on our secondary scoring line than MacA/Frattin splitting 2nd/3rd line duties (they're not suited for our shut-down line and last year they weren't very good outside a few games on our scoring line either).

Our top 9 looks awesome to me outside of Bozak (I don't like Bozak, but he's definitely under-rated by Leaf fans):

Lupul/JVR - Bozak - Kessel
Lupul/JVR - Kadri - Clarkson
D'amigo - Bolland - Kulemin
XXXXX - McClement - XXXXX

There are many teams in the league who would kill for a 2nd + 3rd line like ours.

Edit: and Bolland a 4th line guy? He played 2nd line for a bunch of games, seriously 4th line?

Community is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 05:34 PM
  #58
TMLife
#1 or bust
 
TMLife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Victoria, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,557
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by theremedial View Post
If you include Clarkson you need to include Mac and Komi and everyone else. I tried to exclude FAs
The point is, all the players we lost or traded away were expendable and didn't have a defined role on our team.
Bolland is a perfect third line C(Grabovski wasn't).
Clarkson is the perfect RWer for Kadri(Frattin had question marks and lacked toughness).
Bernier has a legit chance to be a top goalie in the NHL(Scrivens didn't).
All other pieces we traded we just pieces, we didn't need them as much as we needed the pieces that we acquired.

TMLife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 05:35 PM
  #59
hockeygeek
Registered User
 
hockeygeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,688
vCash: 500
Yeah he's overpaid but the lack of options didn't help. Teams that don't negotiate from a position of strength regularly have to overpay players to retain their services.

hockeygeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 05:43 PM
  #60
The Blue Devil
Registered User
 
The Blue Devil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,683
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
I dont know, JVR, Lupul and Kessel all had career years playing with Bozak. Look it up, its fact. Even more strange than that, each of those wingers had better center's than Bozak, yet had better numbers with this plug in the middle? The other evidence I can show you, is that Bozak is the defensively responsible player on that first line. If he werent, teams would score more goals against than the top line can produce. Not to mention Bozak is good on faceoffs and is an important part of the PK. Its a joke really, people chirp and complain that Bozak doesnt score more, hence he sucks. Scoring is not, and has not been a problem for the Leafs. Bozak is the player that allows his wingers to be successful with his defensive play and smarts. Another poster who equates scoring to being a good player.


Yeah, it had nothing to do with Kessel being one of the best wingers in the game. Bozak's 47 points were huge when Kessel got 82 in 82 and Lupul got 68 in 67.
How come Kessel struggled to score when Mac and Bozak were on the top line early in the year? Why is it that Kessel didn't start playing better until JVR arrived on his line?

The Blue Devil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 05:43 PM
  #61
080
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Guelph
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,546
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMLKesselftw View Post
I think all you need to know is 90% of fans are more excited about this roster than the roster at the end of the year? We've solidified our goaltending, solidified our top 9 (1 spot open for D'amigo or Ashton or Biggs or Ryan), without taking away from our defense. I'd rather have Clarkson on our secondary scoring line than MacA/Frattin splitting 2nd/3rd line duties (they're not suited for our shut-down line and last year they weren't very good outside a few games on our scoring line either).

Our top 9 looks awesome to me outside of Bozak (I don't like Bozak, but he's definitely under-rated by Leaf fans):

Lupul/JVR - Bozak - Kessel
Lupul/JVR - Kadri - Clarkson
D'amigo - Bolland - Kulemin
XXXXX - McClement - XXXXX

There are many teams in the league who would kill for a 2nd + 3rd line like ours.

Edit: and Bolland a 4th line guy? He played 2nd line for a bunch of games, seriously 4th line?
I agree. I think what you need to look at is the end result up front:

JVR - Bozak - Kessel
Lupul - Kadri - MacArthur
Kulemin - Grabovski - Frattin
Orr - McClement - McLaren

vs.

JVR - Bozak - Kessel
Lupul - Kadri - Clarkson
Kulemin - Bolland - McClement (he produced at the same rate as Grabo last year)
Orr - Colborne - D'Amigo/Ashton/McLaren

080 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 05:45 PM
  #62
The Blue Devil
Registered User
 
The Blue Devil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,683
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
Do your homework, look at Lupul last season, not the most recent. How could Kessel not have a career year with a very talented and healthy Savard at the time, if it is Kessel doing all the heavy lifting anyway? You're not making any sense. It is fair to say Bozak is not a number one center, but what doesnt that matter? He is playing well in the middle, his linemates are doing extremely well with him there, and Bozak plays special teams, and is good defensively. He may not be your prototypical number 1, but he is doing what he needs to. I dont recall Anaheim fans chirping when Andy Macdonald was their number one center?
Maybe because MacDonald put up over 70 points not playing with 2 PPG wingers.

The Blue Devil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 05:49 PM
  #63
The Blue Devil
Registered User
 
The Blue Devil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,683
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
So your argument continues to be, you judge Bozak on his ability to score? Here is where we differ, part of the responsibilites of a center is to distribute the puck to the wingers and be the first forward back. This is what he does, and has done it well. You seem to skip over the other aspects of his game, and focus on scoring, which is not suprising. The successess of his wingers clearly demostrates his abilty to lift the play of his wingers, at both ends of the ice. Call it a fluke all you like, that is beyond circumstance that 3 very good wingers had career years with Bozak. The Leafs dont need more scoring. They need to improve defensive awareness.
They need to improve puck possession, something that Bozak is terrible at.

The Blue Devil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 05:51 PM
  #64
Warden of the North
Global Moderator
hmmmmmmm
 
Warden of the North's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Muskoka
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mclovin View Post
Maybe we should trade for Mike ****ing Cammalleri that you seem so supportive of?
Where did I ever say anything about Mike Cammalleri?

I'm a tad confused.....

Warden of the North is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 05:56 PM
  #65
thewave
Registered User
 
thewave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 16,074
vCash: 500
At the end of the day if Clarkson does not pan out, Bolland a rental does not perform and we are set back 2 years in the development of the team.

The safer bet was trying to land a Weiss or Ryan, improve the D and get someone like Emery. Low risk high reward less damning to our future potentially.

We made knee jerk moves. They are not well thought out but Carlyle wanted it so.

thewave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 06:05 PM
  #66
Dosh Jonaldson
Bunch of Bangerz
 
Dosh Jonaldson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,684
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suntouchable13 View Post
If they need re-signing Bozak to assist Kessel's re-signing then Kessel is not the player I want here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobstertainment View Post
If our star player needs his bff to stay with us(spoilers it wouldn't, we'd still offer 8 years x 7.5+ for him) then I question his priorities.
If having Bozak sign here long term keeps Phil here long term on a cap friendly deal then I am ALL for it and don't question it at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theremedial View Post
Bolland has a terrible back and was put on 4th line, we paid for him to be TRIED on 2nd is what Nonis said.

Then you have Clarkson guy that very possibly had a couple Grabo type years (maybe he is crap next year too).

Bernier has played 60 games he could suck it up for all we know.

I don't see these as upgrades but I do see getting rid of Bozak and upgrading to Weiss, Etc. Bobby Ryan would be an upgrade, real hockey players not guys on a probable high note or ones on a low.
Funny thing is Carlyle has a different way of naming his lines. The Kadri line of last year, Kadri, Lupul, and whoever was the 3rd line while the Grabo shut down line was the 2nd line. So yes, Bolland will be on the "2nd line" because Carlyle line matches.

Sounds like you just hate everyone on the leafs and love everyone off of it. Ryan could very possibly not mesh with the Sens, Weiss could very possibly not regain his faceoff ability and suffer another wrist injury. Lots of probabilities eh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by theremedial View Post
At the end of the day if Clarkson does not pan out, Bolland a rental does not perform and we are set back 2 years in the development of the team.

The safer bet was trying to land a Weiss or Ryan, improve the D and get someone like Emery. Low risk high reward less damning to our future potentially.

We made knee jerk moves. They are not well thought out but Carlyle wanted it so.
You're saying Bolland is a rental when Bobby Ryan has 2 years left on his deal and all indications is that he is getting a huge raise and going elsewhere. Ryan could bust out and there would 4 years of development giving up Gardiner/Kadri ++ for him. Weiss is not a safe bet at all getting what, 4 points last year and coming off wrist surgery. You have no clue whether he will mesh with Kessel, JVR, Lupul like Bozak does. Emery is coming off a career year where he played on one of the best teams of all time and you want him for one year? Come on now.

Dosh Jonaldson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 06:09 PM
  #67
thewave
Registered User
 
thewave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 16,074
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop The Mits View Post
If having Bozak sign here long term keeps Phil here long term on a cap friendly deal then I am ALL for it and don't question it at all.



Funny thing is Carlyle has a different way of naming his lines. The Kadri line of last year, Kadri, Lupul, and whoever was the 3rd line while the Grabo shut down line was the 2nd line. So yes, Bolland will be on the "2nd line" because Carlyle line matches.

Sounds like you just hate everyone on the leafs and love everyone off of it. Ryan could very possibly not mesh with the Sens, Weiss could very possibly not regain his faceoff ability and suffer another wrist injury. Lots of probabilities eh?



You're saying Bolland is a rental when Bobby Ryan has 2 years left on his deal and all indications is that he is getting a huge raise and going elsewhere. Ryan could bust out and there would 4 years of development giving up Gardiner/Kadri ++ for him. Weiss is not a safe bet at all getting what, 4 points last year and coming off wrist surgery. You have no clue whether he will mesh with Kessel, JVR, Lupul like Bozak does. Emery is coming off a career year where he played on one of the best teams of all time and you want him for one year? Come on now.
Uh they got Ryan for pretty much Kulemin Percy and a pick. Bobby Ryan is a star capable of hitting the all star game on his own merit, these others are not.

thewave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 06:11 PM
  #68
Warden of the North
Global Moderator
hmmmmmmm
 
Warden of the North's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Muskoka
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by theremedial View Post
Uh they got Ryan for pretty much Kulemin Percy and a pick. Bobby Ryan is a star capable of hitting the all star game on his own merit, these others are not.
Its closer to Kadri, Biggs/Gauthier and a 1st. Thats not a cheap price

Warden of the North is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 06:13 PM
  #69
thewave
Registered User
 
thewave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 16,074
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
Its closer to Kadri, Biggs/Gauthier and a 1st. Thats not a cheap price
Uhh Sberg had what 24pts in 48 games, how the heck is that PPG Kadri? Explain this to me please, so what about Biggs and a first, it's freakin Bobby Ryan man lol

thewave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 06:14 PM
  #70
Dosh Jonaldson
Bunch of Bangerz
 
Dosh Jonaldson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,684
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by theremedial View Post
Uh they got Ryan for pretty much Kulemin Percy and a pick. Bobby Ryan is a star capable of hitting the all star game on his own merit, these others are not.
When has Ryan proven that he is a star capable of hitting the all star game on his own merit? Playing with Perry and Getzlaf? He is a poor mans Kessel. We already have enough people going to the all-star game (Kessel, Lupul, Phaneuf) I think we're fine with sending three people. There is no way the Anaheim GM doesn't want Gardiner back in a deal for Ryan. What happens when Kessel/Phaneuf's deals comes up next year and then Ryan the year after? Cap hell. Ryan is getting a raise. We don't need wingers. We need defenseman and moving a potential all star is not the way to do that.

Dosh Jonaldson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 06:17 PM
  #71
The Apologist
Where's JVR?
 
The Apologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Leaf Nation Hell
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,449
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
Bozak got market value. I'm not a fan, but I don't dislike Bozak either, I think the reality is that he got what he would have gotten anywhere.
This exactly. He got exactly what most rational people thought he would get based on his skill set.

The Apologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 06:17 PM
  #72
leafspring*
 
leafspring*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,361
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by theremedial View Post
Uh they got Ryan for pretty much Kulemin Percy and a pick. Bobby Ryan is a star capable of hitting the all star game on his own merit, these others are not.
Wow your off your rocker. Trying to post back to you and be humble is out of the question. You are just arrogant now. Silfverberg might just end up being the best player in that trade not Ryan.

leafspring* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 06:19 PM
  #73
Ramboshaw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Meadow Lake, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 495
vCash: 500
Bozak gets over 55 points this coming season. Book it.

Ramboshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 06:20 PM
  #74
thewave
Registered User
 
thewave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 16,074
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop The Mits View Post
When has Ryan proven that he is a star capable of hitting the all star game on his own merit? Playing with Perry and Getzlaf? He is a poor mans Kessel. We already have enough people going to the all-star game (Kessel, Lupul, Phaneuf) I think we're fine with sending three people. There is no way the Anaheim GM doesn't want Gardiner back in a deal for Ryan. What happens when Kessel/Phaneuf's deals comes up next year and then Ryan the year after? Cap hell. Ryan is getting a raise. We don't need wingers. We need defenseman and moving a potential all star is not the way to do that.
When was the last time Bozak, Clarkson, Sberg or anyone else considered as a comparison hit 71pts in a season, actually name all the leafs on this roster that hit 70pts.

I rest my case.

thewave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-09-2013, 06:32 PM
  #75
thewave
Registered User
 
thewave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 16,074
vCash: 500
No ranked #5 top left wingers in the NHL, not a star at all lol

http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index...ers-in-the-nhl

thewave is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:55 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2016 All Rights Reserved.