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The Detroit Red Wings Have Me Excited Again!

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Old
07-10-2013, 08:40 PM
  #26
WingedWheel1987
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
I don't neccessarily love Abdelkader in the top 6, but is it really a big deal if he is playing on a line with both Datsyuk AND Zetterberg? Those guys don't need a talented 3rd wheel, they have each other. Didn't they both put up 100 pts with Holmstrom on their line, IIRC?

I know you're strongly against him in the top 6, but in this circumstance I really think it's not a big deal. Those 2 have enough magic together to where they just need a big body to get them the puck then go stand in front of the net. That's all Homer did, and that line worked awesome.

Abby in the top 6 last year was worse because we weren't as deep IMO. I really don't mind it if he's playing with those 2.
Homer is and was a far smarter player than Gator on every level.

This is insane. You are gimping the line with Gator being carried by Z and Datsyuk. Nobody respects Gator. The guy sucks as a bottom sixer, so the best option is to put him next to Datsyuk and Z? This is purely a love affair between Babcock and Holland that makes no sense. I hear Holland praise Gator and wonder, "WTF are you talking about?" He is sooooooo mediocre and offensively challenged. His on ice vision is comparable to Ray Charles.

blahh blahh blahh big body who retrieves pucks. You can pick up some random FA who has better offensive instincts who can retrieve pucks. This is simply a, "Lets hope Garbagekader turns into something he will never be."

It's a lazy move by pretending Gator deserves to play in the top six and the Wings are overrating their player. Homer scored 59 points in one season where he played 81 games. Gator has scored 60 points in 257 games. Yeah he is going to see an increase in points by playing with Z and Datsyuk, but the guy is simply a joke on offense. Holland gave him a stupid four year contract and now we are stuck with him. We all know Holland will never trade such a valuable asset they have in Justin Abdelkader. Why even give him a four year contract? You don't need to lock up such a mediocre bottom six player for that long.

Defenders are going to pay attention to Z and Datsyuk and just watch Gator miss wide open shots or take awful shots or make a bad pass.


Last edited by WingedWheel1987: 07-10-2013 at 08:55 PM.
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Old
07-10-2013, 08:45 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Homer is and was a far smarter player than Gator.
Homer was a smart player, but he also just played a simple game and moved the puck quickly. I don't think it would be that hard for Abdelkader to play a similar role as Homer. Abby can win those puck battles, and get to the front of the net. And he is a lot more mobile.

Homer was a good passer, but it wasn't like he was a playmaker by any means. I think once Abby builds some chemsitry with the 2 of them he will be able to play a similar role. I guess we'll see.

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07-10-2013, 08:48 PM
  #28
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I definatly feel like this team is the strongest we've had since 2009, maybe not on defense but I'm alot more confident with the team right now.

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07-10-2013, 08:56 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by LeighDx13 View Post
I definatly feel like this team is the strongest we've had since 2009, maybe not on defense but I'm alot more confident with the team right now.
Depends a lot on how much Tatar and Nyquist play, Helms health and how the Wings fit in with the East. Still gotta see what the final roster looks like and the projected lines before I get real gud excited.

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07-10-2013, 08:57 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Homer is and was a far smarter player than Gator on every level.

This is insane. You are gimping the line with Gator being carried by Z and Datsyuk. Nobody respects Gator. The guy sucks as a bottom sixer, so the best option is to put him next to Datsyuk and Z? This is purely a love affair between Babcock and Holland that makes no sense. I hear Holland praise Gator and wonder, "WTF are you talking about?" He is sooooooo mediocre and offensively challenged. His on ice vision is comparable to Ray Charles.

blahh blahh blahh big body who retrieves pucks. You can pick up some random FA who has better offensive instincts who can retrieve pucks. This is simply a, "Lets hope Garbagekader turns into something he will never be."

It's a lazy move by pretending Gator deserves to play in the top six and the Wings are overrating their player. Homer scored 59 points in one season where he played 81 games. Gator has scored 60 points in 257 games. Yeah he is going to see an increase in points by playing with Z and Datsyuk, but the guy is simply a joke on offense.

Defenders are going to pay attention to Z and Datsyuk and just watch Gator miss wide open shots or take awful shots or make a bad pass.
I do agree with a lot of what you are saying, though you are going a little extreme with it lol.

I don't think Abby has a top 6 skill set, and in most scenarios I want him outside of our top 6.

I just think that playing with Pavel and Hank is something that might work, so I'm not going to knock it before I see them all play together.

Ideally I think we could put Nyquist on a line with Pav and Z, but if we do that our 3rd line is pretty much shot.

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07-10-2013, 09:10 PM
  #31
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I do agree with a lot of what you are saying, though you are going a little extreme with it lol.

I don't think Abby has a top 6 skill set, and in most scenarios I want him outside of our top 6.

I just think that playing with Pavel and Hank is something that might work, so I'm not going to knock it before I see them all play together.

Ideally I think we could put Nyquist on a line with Pav and Z, but if we do that our 3rd line is pretty much shot.
Dats and Z playing together is only gonna work in that scenario if the 2nd line carries their weight. I like the idea of a third line with Tats and Nyquist on the wings. I just don't trust Babcock to put the best lineup out there. I think both those players should get chances to move up to the 1st and 2nd lines if Gator or Alfie are struggling. I'd like to see more in-game adjustments this season.

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07-10-2013, 09:24 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Vladdy84 View Post
Dats and Z playing together is only gonna work in that scenario if the 2nd line carries their weight. I like the idea of a third line with Tats and Nyquist on the wings. I just don't trust Babcock to put the best lineup out there. I think both those players should get chances to move up to the 1st and 2nd lines if Gator or Alfie are struggling. I'd like to see more in-game adjustments this season.
Yeah that part of Babcock really does bug me. When he gets the line matchup he wants he is golden, but when his lines aren't clicking he really just doesn't do much.

I am sure for pointing this out we are going to get a whole bunch of



Who think he does nothing wrong because he is one of the better coaches in the business. But I find Babcock to be below average in terms of line shuffling and dreadful with the use of his one timeout a game. There are a lot of times where the game is spiraling out of control and I am thinking call the damn timeout Babcock, especially with our young team last year.

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07-10-2013, 09:26 PM
  #33
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I think that's a fair assessment with Babcock, but it also has a lot to do with the personnel he has to work with and how that personnel is playing. You can shuffle all day, but if the players can't get it going it doesn't matter. Some of the better coaches in the league have this same thing said about them.

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07-10-2013, 09:28 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Homer is and was a far smarter player than Gator on every level.

This is insane. You are gimping the line with Gator being carried by Z and Datsyuk. Nobody respects Gator. The guy sucks as a bottom sixer, so the best option is to put him next to Datsyuk and Z? This is purely a love affair between Babcock and Holland that makes no sense. I hear Holland praise Gator and wonder, "WTF are you talking about?" He is sooooooo mediocre and offensively challenged. His on ice vision is comparable to Ray Charles.

blahh blahh blahh big body who retrieves pucks. You can pick up some random FA who has better offensive instincts who can retrieve pucks. This is simply a, "Lets hope Garbagekader turns into something he will never be."

It's a lazy move by pretending Gator deserves to play in the top six and the Wings are overrating their player. Homer scored 59 points in one season where he played 81 games. Gator has scored 60 points in 257 games. Yeah he is going to see an increase in points by playing with Z and Datsyuk, but the guy is simply a joke on offense. Holland gave him a stupid four year contract and now we are stuck with him. We all know Holland will never trade such a valuable asset they have in Justin Abdelkader. Why even give him a four year contract? You don't need to lock up such a mediocre bottom six player for that long.

Defenders are going to pay attention to Z and Datsyuk and just watch Gator miss wide open shots or take awful shots or make a bad pass.
If Gator gets an entire season with Zetterberg and Datsyuk we're going to see him score like 20 goals and 10 assists and people begin calling him a great young power forward.

Truth is, any winger could score 20 goals with those guys

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07-10-2013, 09:32 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
If Gator gets an entire season with Zetterberg and Datsyuk we're going to see him score like 20 goals and 10 assists and people begin calling him a great young power forward.

Truth is, any winger could score 20 goals with those guys
I would hope if Abdelkader scored 30 points playing an entire season with Datsyuk and Zetterberg people wouldn't call him a great young power forward.

I'm a lot more concerned about what Datsyuk and Zetterberg put up playing with Abdelkader, than what Abdelkader puts up playing with Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

My hope would just be that Abdelkader does the dirty work and gives them free reign to play their game and go off.

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07-10-2013, 09:41 PM
  #36
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Dats and Z playing together is only gonna work in that scenario if the 2nd line carries their weight. I like the idea of a third line with Tats and Nyquist on the wings. I just don't trust Babcock to put the best lineup out there. I think both those players should get chances to move up to the 1st and 2nd lines if Gator or Alfie are struggling. I'd like to see more in-game adjustments this season.
Frankly, I don't think Babs has a choice anymore. Plus his stated preference is to have Weiss center the second line. There's no way he moves Z/D/Franzen/Alfie from the top6. Add Weiss in there, that's 5/6 slots taken. He's already said he wants to keep Abby up there too. So for all intents and purposes, the top6 is set.

After that, he's never shown a predilection for using Eaves/Miller on the third line, rather the fourth. Which just leaves Nyquist/Tatar as long as, oh dear sweet baby Jesus, Cleary isn't resigned. I think the fact that Babs went with Nyquist in the playoffs over Bert/Sammy is a great sign. And he didn't use Toots at all in the playoffs, and only used him intermittently in the regular season even. I doubt he goes to him all that often next year.

So Tatar/Nyquist probably slated for the third line. Either with Helm or Andersson, frankly it doesn't matter that much. Neither Andersson nor Helm showed anything "wow" offensively. But they're both pretty good defensively. Helm's speed might open more stuff up for them, but Andersson is also bigger, which is nice when you got two smaller skill guys like Nyquist/Tatar on the same line. Plus they have chemistry together.

Either way, I think the lines should be fine, barring an incredibly stupid resigning of Cleary and or regression into using Sammy/Bert again. It's time for them to move on.

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07-10-2013, 10:09 PM
  #37
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I think that's a fair assessment with Babcock, but it also has a lot to do with the personnel he has to work with and how that personnel is playing. You can shuffle all day, but if the players can't get it going it doesn't matter. Some of the better coaches in the league have this same thing said about them.
Guess I am confused how the Swedish national coaches find Franzen and Zetterberg play well together but in 8 plus years Babcock hasn't figured that out or stuck with it when it is going well and he accidentally comes across it.

You can gripe about personnel, but Babcock has certain stubborn tendencies not that most coaches don't, but it's fair to get unnerved by some of them.

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07-10-2013, 10:23 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
Guess I am confused how the Swedish national coaches find Franzen and Zetterberg play well together but in 8 plus years Babcock hasn't figured that out or stuck with it when it is going well and he accidentally comes across it.

You can gripe about personnel, but Babcock has certain stubborn tendencies not that most coaches don't, but it's fair to get unnerved by some of them.
Weiss-Dats-Alife/Gator
Mule-Z-Nyquist
Tatar-Helm-Gator/Alfie

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07-10-2013, 10:27 PM
  #39
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Guess I am confused how the Swedish national coaches find Franzen and Zetterberg play well together but in 8 plus years Babcock hasn't figured that out or stuck with it when it is going well and he accidentally comes across it.

You can gripe about personnel, but Babcock has certain stubborn tendencies not that most coaches don't, but it's fair to get unnerved by some of them.
Every coach has stubborn tendencies. You can see them clear as day by reading through threads when other teams are losing. Chicago, Boston, Pittsburgh, etc... all complain about their coaches just as much as we complain about Babcock.

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07-10-2013, 10:47 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Vladdy84 View Post
Weiss-Dats-Alife/Gator
Mule-Z-Nyquist
Tatar-Helm-Gator/Alfie
I like the pairings we are projected to start with we will see how it works out. As Datsyuk and Zetterberg age I think it is smart to play them together. A little less taxing on both hopefully. Reserve the splitting them up for an absolute sucker punch of what the hell do I do now, for the coaching counterpart in the playoffs.

Z - Datsyuk - Gator
Franzen - Weiss - Alfie
Nyquist - Helm/Andersson - Tatar
Don't really care although I hope Babcock ices his fourth line a little more this year and helps balance the minutes a little better because he has depth again.

The one thing I can say is when the lines stall, I would like to see this switch and I have been against it in the past, but not as much this coming season. Flip Nyquist/Tatar with Franzen and let him devour a 3 pairing. I can see them doing that at times.

I for one think we will see substantial gains by Abdelkader, realize I risk getting made fun of a lot for that. But like that he will do everything grimy and hit everything that moves while playing on that first line. Really is getting pretty good at screening the goalie, needs to work on deflections though and puck retrieval, curious to see the gains made in his game as he knows he has a huge opportunity next year.

But Babcock has a ton of options this year, so I just hope he doesn't sit on his hands, when we are flat have Renney hold out a hat with the top 9 names in it and start mixing and matching.

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07-10-2013, 11:01 PM
  #41
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1) I'll truly be excited if Cleary does not return; it's honestly as simple as that for me personally as far as the offseason goes from here on out.

2) I agree with the wingedwheel1987 in regards to Abby. The 3rd linemate is undervalued and can be the difference in providing or preventing great success from a line. Homer won a lot more puck battles than Abby has shown to this point. Another huge distinction between them is that Homer could play the puck with his head up; meaning he could quickly identify where 13 and 40 were and get them the puck. Abby plays with his head down. Bad vision that can be the difference between an offensive zone cycle or an easy clear. Dan Cleary has the same problem. The bottom line for me is that you can't just stick any piece as their 3rd linemate and expect greatness. You need the right piece. Which brings me to...

3) Babcock is a great coach, but his stubborn tendencies and lack of creativity and trust with forward lines piss me off and cost this team wins last year. He is the main reason why I get a bad taste in my mind when I hear or see the name Dan Cleary. He is the reason why I get nervous and think that Abdelkader is going to get an extended opportunity next to 13 and 40 even if it is not working out, rather than trying another piece. And he is the reason why I get scared that Brian Lashoff is this team's #7.

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07-10-2013, 11:08 PM
  #42
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1) I'll truly be excited if Cleary does not return; it's honestly as simple as that for me personally as far as the offseason goes from here on out.

2) I agree with the wingedwheel1987 in regards to Abby. The 3rd linemate is undervalued and can be the difference in providing or preventing great success from a line. Homer won a lot more puck battles than Abby has shown to this point. Another huge distinction between them is that Homer could play the puck with his head up; meaning he could quickly identify where 13 and 40 were and get them the puck. Abby plays with his head down. Bad vision that can be the difference between an offensive zone cycle or an easy clear. Dan Cleary has the same problem. The bottom line for me is that you can't just stick any piece as their 3rd linemate and expect greatness. You need the right piece. Which brings me to...

3) Babcock is a great coach, but his stubborn tendencies and lack of creativity and trust with forward lines piss me off and cost this team wins last year. He is the main reason why I get a bad taste in my mind when I hear or see the name Dan Cleary. He is the reason why I get nervous and think that Abdelkader is going to get an extended opportunity next to 13 and 40 even if it is not working out, rather than trying another piece. And he is the reason why I get scared that Brian Lashoff is this team's #7.
Agree with all of that

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07-11-2013, 04:35 AM
  #43
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Z - Datsyuk - Gator
Franzen - Weiss - Alfie
Nyquist - Helm/Andersson - Tatar
Don't really care although I hope Babcock ices his fourth line a little more this year and helps balance the minutes a little better because he has depth again.

For our bottom six I'd actually like to see...

Nyquist - Andersson - Tatar
Eaves - Helm - Miller/Bertuzzi

It would give chemistry and a little size (Andy) on our third line and as for the forth you have Eaves (shooter/speed) with Helm (speed/hitting) and Miller or Bertuzzi (size/hands) would give teams fits, it also shelters Helm abit until he gets back into game playing shape. Also depending how long it takes for Babcock to realize if Abby doesn't work on the top line and depending on Bertuzzi's health/play, you could interchange Abdelkader and Bertuzzi on the lines.

Just hoping Babcock isn't as stubborn as he was last season now that he has alot more options.

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07-11-2013, 10:47 AM
  #44
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I like the pairings we are projected to start with we will see how it works out. As Datsyuk and Zetterberg age I think it is smart to play them together. A little less taxing on both hopefully. Reserve the splitting them up for an absolute sucker punch of what the hell do I do now, for the coaching counterpart in the playoffs.

Z - Datsyuk - Gator
Franzen - Weiss - Alfie
Nyquist - Helm/Andersson - Tatar
Don't really care although I hope Babcock ices his fourth line a little more this year and helps balance the minutes a little better because he has depth again.

The one thing I can say is when the lines stall, I would like to see this switch and I have been against it in the past, but not as much this coming season. Flip Nyquist/Tatar with Franzen and let him devour a 3 pairing. I can see them doing that at times.

I for one think we will see substantial gains by Abdelkader, realize I risk getting made fun of a lot for that. But like that he will do everything grimy and hit everything that moves while playing on that first line. Really is getting pretty good at screening the goalie, needs to work on deflections though and puck retrieval, curious to see the gains made in his game as he knows he has a huge opportunity next year.

But Babcock has a ton of options this year, so I just hope he doesn't sit on his hands, when we are flat have Renney hold out a hat with the top 9 names in it and start mixing and matching.
Using the expected roster
Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi
Franzen-Weiss-Alfredsson
Abdelkader-Helm-Cleary
Nyquist-Andersson-Tatar

IMO, you're running 4 lines fairly evenly until the final 6-7 minutes of the game.

But IMO, we're going to see this:

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Abdelkader
Franzen-Weiss-Afredsson
Miller Helm Cleary
Nyquist-Anddersson-Bertuzzi

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07-11-2013, 10:49 AM
  #45
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Using the expected roster
Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi
Franzen-Weiss-Alfredsson
Abdelkader-Helm-Cleary
Nyquist-Andersson-Tatar

IMO, you're running 4 lines fairly evenly until the final 6-7 minutes of the game.

But IMO, we're going to see this:

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Abdelkader
Franzen-Weiss-Afredsson
Miller Helm Cleary
Nyquist-Anddersson-Bertuzzi
IMO, we should have been seeing this:

Franzen Zetterberg Brunner
Grabovski Datsyuk Morrow
Abdelkader Helm Bertuzzi
Nyquist Andersson Tatar

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07-11-2013, 10:50 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
IMO, we should have been seeing this:

Franzen Zetterberg Brunner
Grabovski Datsyuk Morrow
Abdelkader Helm Bertuzzi
Nyquist Andersson Tatar
Which forwards are penalty killing there? That looks like a recipe of massively wearing down Z and Datsyuk on the PK.

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07-11-2013, 10:52 AM
  #47
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Which forwards are penalty killing there? That looks like a recipe of massively wearing down Z and Datsyuk on the PK.
Helm, Andersson, Morrow, and Miller? Maybe Abdelkader if Morrow doesn't PK.

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07-11-2013, 10:54 AM
  #48
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Helm, Andersson, Morrow, and Miller? Maybe Abdelkader if Morrow doesn't PK.
Miller wasn't in his lineup that I quoted. I dunno, just seems incredibly flimsy on the PK front. I don't mind a defensive minded 4th line.

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07-11-2013, 11:04 AM
  #49
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Which forwards are penalty killing there? That looks like a recipe of massively wearing down Z and Datsyuk on the PK.
When you're rolling four lines, you're going to decrease time at ES a bit.

On the PK:
C: Helm, Andersson, Abdelkader Datsyuk Zetterberg
Other: Franzen, Morrow, Nyquist

We have no shortage of guys who can PK.

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07-11-2013, 11:14 AM
  #50
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Well, anyone can PK. Montreal used Robert Lang on the PK. I just don't see any real improvement coming from our PK with that group. Miller was a pretty vital cog in the success we had at times in the playoffs.

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