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Mats Zuccarello Re-signs (1 year, $1.15M)

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07-21-2013, 04:42 PM
  #401
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Originally Posted by jniklast View Post
The arbitrator is supposed to use comparables to determine the award and that automatically takes RFA status in account and lowers the award. Arbitration does not suddenly make a player paid like an UFA.
You're misreading it also...AFTER he makes his decision it does not matter. He might base his decision on it. Let's say Stepan went to arbitration this year and was awarded something really on the high side for his current status. Say 5.25M. Are you going to let him walk just because it's higher than you wanted (but still less than or equal to what his value is and what he would get as a UFA)?

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07-21-2013, 04:44 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
You're misreading it also...AFTER he makes his decision it does not matter. He might base his decision on it. Let's say Stepan went to arbitration this year and was awarded something really on the high side for his current status. Say 5.25M. Are you going to let him walk just because it's higher than you wanted (but still less than or equal to what his value is and what he would get as a UFA)?
I think we are misreading it because we have no idea what the hell your point is. We know that the award is the final amount. We know that they can walk (well, above a certain value, anyway). Of course some teams are going to walk if they feel a player is getting paid higher than they should. So what are you really talking about?

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07-21-2013, 04:46 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
You're misreading it also...AFTER he makes his decision it does not matter. He might base his decision on it. Let's say Stepan went to arbitration this year and was awarded something really on the high side for his current status. Say 5.25M. Are you going to let him walk just because it's higher than you wanted (but still less than or equal to what his value is and what he would get as a UFA)?
Of course, after the award there is no negotiation and RFA doesn't matter. But that's not what this is about. It's about the amount he got awarded. You said it was a reasonable deal, but considering his status (RFA), the length of the deal and of course his play it wasn't a reasonable deal at all. Walking away was an understandable decision.

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07-21-2013, 04:48 PM
  #404
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All of your logic is highly inconsistent.

1. You are all saying Zherdevs 3.9M is way too much for what he is but he should have been worth the 2M he signed two years later (after a year overseas)

2. At the same time you are telling me the arbitrator bases his decision on comparable players so if that is a true statement it disputes your previous statement that the 3.9M is unreasonable.

3. When I provide a list of players who, the same year, put up similar point totals and their contracts the next year they are somehow all the wrong players even though they are the true comparables of what his actual value should be. Either the guy can provide more than $X of value at which point you keep him or you can't at which point you don't. (Of course some other factors like his age, if he can improve long term and such, can make you want to keep a guy if you expect to lose value short term but gain long term).

I have to go for a bit.

4. You are focusing too much on salary as a function of age and contract status rather than as a function of ability. As long as the player provides a positive expectation that is all that matters (Excluding the ability for cap flexibility which at the arbitration phase is almost irrelevant since it is much past the beginning of UFA).

5. I understand that teams and arbitrators base their offers on contract status but if the player is awarded a deal that is higher than they hoped, but still less than his true value, it is still a reasonable deal.

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Originally Posted by jniklast View Post
Of course, after the award there is no negotiation and RFA doesn't matter. But that's not what this is about. It's about the amount he got awarded. You said it was a reasonable deal, but considering his status (RFA), the length of the deal and of course his play it wasn't a reasonable deal at all. Walking away was an understandable decision.

6. No no no no no no. This. Walking away is not understandable. At that point it just comes down to can the guy help or not. Not trying to prove a point by letting the guy go because you're unhappy with the award.

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07-21-2013, 04:50 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by Faxius View Post
They get a week in august to buyout players. Not compliance-buyouts though.
so we can buy out another player to create cap space then?

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07-21-2013, 04:51 PM
  #406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
All of your logic is highly inconsistent.

1. You are all saying Zherdevs 3.9M is way too much for what he is but he should have been worth the 2M he signed two years later (after a year overseas)

2. At the same time you are telling me the arbitrator bases his decision on comparable players so if that is a true statement it disputes your previous statement that the 3.9M is unreasonable.

3. When I provide a list of players who, the same year, put up similar point totals and their contracts the next year they are somehow all the wrong players even though they are the true comparables of what his actual value should be.

4. You are focusing too much on salary as a function of age and contract status rather than as a function of ability. As long as the player provides a positive expectation that is all that matters (Excluding the ability for cap flexibility which at the arbitration phase is almost irrelevant since it is much past the beginning of UFA).

5. I understand that teams and arbitrators base their offers on contract status but if the player is awarded a deal that is higher than they hoped, but still less than his true value, it is still a reasonable deal.
1. Yes. He was not worth the money. I think his failure upon return showed that and the fact he's not currently in the NHL.

2. The arbitrator uses comparables. Both sides are going to submit lists of players. Points are not the only factor.

3. Those players were almost all UFA contracts and they really have no bearing on Zherdev's contract or any arbitration award.

4. And obviously the Rangers felt he would not provide that with the salary he was awarded.

5. That's all subjective and meaningless.

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07-21-2013, 04:52 PM
  #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
6. No no no no no no. This. Walking away is not understandable. At that point it just comes down to can the guy help or not. Not trying to prove a point by letting the guy go because you're unhappy with the award.
Uh, no. The team clearly felt he was not worth the award. I see no reason why it's wrong to walk away from an award deemed too high. That's why the system exists in the first place.

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07-21-2013, 04:56 PM
  #408
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Because saying the arbitrator bases his award on comparables and then saying that zherdevs award, which was based on comparables, was too much is an inconsistent thought process

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07-21-2013, 04:59 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
6. No no no no no no. This. Walking away is not understandable. At that point it just comes down to can the guy help or not. Not trying to prove a point by letting the guy go because you're unhappy with the award.
It's not that easy in a cap world. The question isn't simply whether he can help, but whether he helps enough for his cap hit or if he can be replaced by better player(s) for the same amount. A year later Zherdev didn't even provide enough to justify his 2 million cap hit, so I daresay the decision was indeed understandable and justified.

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07-21-2013, 05:02 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
Because saying the arbitrator bases his award on comparables and then saying that zherdevs award, which was based on comparables, was too much is an inconsistent thought process
Or maybe an arbitrator isn't infallible... Curiously he simply split the difference between the two submitted amounts. The fact that no team wanted him at 3.9 million and he signed for so much less a year later suggests that the arbitrator awarded too much.

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07-21-2013, 05:02 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
All of your logic is highly inconsistent.

1. You are all saying Zherdevs 3.9M is way too much for what he is but he should have been worth the 2M he signed two years later (after a year overseas)
Ok
Quote:

2. At the same time you are telling me the arbitrator bases his decision on comparable players so if that is a true statement it disputes your previous statement that the 3.9M is unreasonable.
You realize arbitrators are human, right? He isn't The Great Oracle Of Truth. He didn't come up with the number 3.9M by doing a scientific experiment. Obviously he looked at facts objectively in making his decision but, to a large extent, it's his opinion. Put the same exact case in front of 10 different arbitrators and you'll receive at least 7 different outcomes. This particularly arbitrator deciding that Nik Zherdev is worth a certain figure doesn't make it objective reality.

Quote:

3. When I provide a list of players who, the same year, put up similar point totals and their contracts the next year they are somehow all the wrong players even though they are the true comparables of what his actual value should be. Either the guy can provide more than $X of value at which point you keep him or you can't at which point you don't. (Of course some other factors like his age, if he can improve long term and such, can make you want to keep a guy if you expect to lose value short term but gain long term).
Once again, you provided a list of players who put up similar point totals. That doesn't make them comparable players. Because there's more to hockey than points. David Booth scored 30 goals ON TOP OF playing a physical game and being defensively responsible Shawn Horcoff was a 20 goal, 50 point guy ON TOP OF being a key faceoff guy and very good defensive center.

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4. You are focusing too much on salary as a function of age and contract status rather than as a function of ability. As long as the player provides a positive expectation that is all that matters (Excluding the ability for cap flexibility which at the arbitration phase is almost irrelevant since it is much past the beginning of UFA).
An equally, ignoring context is ignorant and irrelevant. The Rangers were shifting away from enigmatic, inconsistent players and shifting towards guys who played a more complete game. As such, handing 4-million to a guy who was going to feature on the second line, score 50 points, and do absolutely nothing else was viewed as a poor use of cap space. Hard to say that, long term, this was not the right decision considering what the Rangers have become.

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07-21-2013, 05:03 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by jniklast View Post
It's not that easy in a cap world. The question isn't simply whether he can help, but whether he helps enough for his cap hit or if he can be replaced by better player(s) for the same amount. A year later Zherdev didn't even provide enough to justify his 2 million cap hit, so I daresay the decision was indeed understandable and justified.
But you can't really replace them at that stage. It's a month after ufa. And it's a one year deal so next year you can always look to replace.

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07-21-2013, 05:15 PM
  #413
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The NHL salary arbitration system always results in a win-win for the player. The arbitrator is allowed to split the difference. In MLB,the arbitrator picks between the club and player number. The arbitrator is not allowed to come up with his own number. Why the NHL didn't insist on changing the system to the MLB system is weird? It was Fehr's system.

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AND HOW DOES SALARY ARBITRATION WORK?

When a veteran player and a team can't agree upon a salary for the upcoming season, they take their dispute before an arbitration panel. Each side submits a salary figure and argues its case, and then the arbitrators must pick one or the other there's no splitting the difference or dreaming up a third number that strikes the panel as fair. This setup prompts teams and players to submit good-faith, realistic salary figures. After all, low-balling the player or asking ownership for an absurdly high number will only result in the other side winning.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/M...plained-080310

Zuccarello could submit a request of $3M with the Rangers submitting $1M or less. The story which quoted Ryman said Zuccarello could be awarded $1.7M-$2.3M in an award. They got those numbers from Ryman. Its not hard to come up with those numbers by splitting the difference.

Both parties must submit their briefs 48 hours before the arbitration hearing. Next Monday.

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07-21-2013, 05:15 PM
  #414
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But you can't really replace them at that stage. It's a month after ufa. And it's a one year deal so next year you can always look to replace.
AFAIK there was actually not enough cap space to fit his award without any additional moves.

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07-21-2013, 05:18 PM
  #415
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Because saying the arbitrator bases his award on comparables and then saying that zherdevs award, which was based on comparables, was too much is an inconsistent thought process
Why are people thinking it will be compared to Zherdev's. Zherdev played a bunch of full seasons in the NHL and it was under a completely different CBA.

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07-21-2013, 05:19 PM
  #416
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RB, what do you think he is going to get awarded? 1.5.

I still think that Zucc's team doesn't have much leverage with hims limited experience in the NHL.

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07-21-2013, 05:26 PM
  #417
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A lot of people getting worked up over something that may amount to nothing.

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07-21-2013, 05:27 PM
  #418
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Why are people thinking it will be compared to Zherdev's. Zherdev played a bunch of full seasons in the NHL and it was under a completely different CBA.
They're not we are way off topic lol

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07-21-2013, 05:27 PM
  #419
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The Rangers wasted their time even qualifying Zherdev. They had his replacement already in the fold by signing Kotalik. Sather tried to trade Zherdev but had no takers for him. Remember Sather offered Zherdev and Roszival to Ottawa for Heatley. Then Sather qualifies him only to walk-away.

Atlanta qualified Clarke McArthur in 2010. He filed for arbitration. Atlanta went to the arbitrator and told him to issue his award. They had no interest in presenting their case because they were walking away no matter how much money the player was awarded. Why bother?

Now the system has changed for walk-aways. McArthur was awarded $2.4M. Atlanta would not have been able to walk away in the current CBA.

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07-21-2013, 05:27 PM
  #420
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A lot of people getting worked up over something that may amount to nothing.
#BecauseItsTheOffseason

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07-21-2013, 05:30 PM
  #421
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The Rangers wasted their time even qualifying Zherdev. They had his replacement already in the fold by signing Kotalik. Sather tried to trade Zherdev but had no takers for him. Remember Sather offered Zherdev and Roszival to Ottawa for Heatley. Then Sather qualifies him only to walk-away.

Atlanta qualified Clarke McArthur in 2010. He filed for arbitration. Atlanta went to the arbitrator and told him to issue his award. They had no interest in presenting their case because they were walking away no matter how much money the player was awarded. Why bother?

Now the system has changed for walk-aways. McArthur was awarded $2.4M. Atlanta would not have been able to walk away in the current CBA.
This could lead to an interesting scenario. Say a team recognises a player that filed for arbitration will get too much money, but less than the 3.5 limit. Could a team actually submit a higher number than the player just for the ability to walk away?

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07-21-2013, 05:37 PM
  #422
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This could lead to an interesting scenario. Say a team recognises a player that filed for arbitration will get too much money, but less than the 3.5 limit. Could a team actually submit a higher number than the player just for the ability to walk away?
How would that make a difference? Why would they need to submit a higher number?

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07-21-2013, 05:37 PM
  #423
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Zherdev

Quote:
Zherdev, 24, rejected the Rangers' $3.25 million qualifying offer in June and was seeking a deal in the neighborhood of $4.5 million. The Rangers refused to up their offer by a single penny.

"It's not a surprise," Zherdev's agent, Rolland Hedges, said by telephone from Ottawa yesterday. "In all fairness, we asked the Rangers after the qualifying offer if they were prepared to negotiate. And they said no. Glen (Sather) stayed true to his word."
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ho...#ixzz2Zib3aVG3

Assuming the Rangers submitted $3.25M. Zherdev submitted $4.5. What's the difference between the two offers? $3.875M. Zherdev was awarded $3.9M.

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07-21-2013, 05:39 PM
  #424
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This could lead to an interesting scenario. Say a team recognises a player that filed for arbitration will get too much money, but less than the 3.5 limit. Could a team actually submit a higher number than the player just for the ability to walk away?
The Rangers submit $5M. Zuccarello submits $3M. $4M award. Walk-away.

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07-21-2013, 05:46 PM
  #425
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I predict Zucc gets 1.25M if it reaches arbitration. Pouilot has done more and he's only making 1.3

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