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Brendan Smith files for salary arbitration

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07-10-2013, 07:40 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
All I can think of is Hudler?
Jason Williams, he was traded shortly after.

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07-10-2013, 07:44 PM
  #52
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Jason Williams, he was traded shortly after.
ray sheppard

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07-10-2013, 07:49 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Kronwalled55 View Post
Smith is either really cool for doing this, or a total d-bag.
Holland kept him down an extra year, even though our coach wanted him up, which hurt his value and cost him a substantial sum of money.

Holland thinks he can bury our talented prospects for excessive amounts of time to control their cap hit, and they will just all take it and say "we're just happy to be a Red Wing". Which is total BS

If I was Brendan Smith I would do the exact same thing, and I am glad he is taking a stand.

Keep in mind he was a .5 ppg player when he was called up 2 years ago. Holland was thinking of the $$ he was gona owe him and probably had a heart attack, and booked him the next flight back to GR.

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07-10-2013, 07:51 PM
  #54
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They repressed him more than developed him! Coaches wanted him up two years ago. On most other teams, he would have been worked in after he left the NCAA, maybe splitting time between the A and NHL. Some teams develop their players in the NHL. The main reason the Wings didn't do so is due to their own philosophy of having old guys mixed in even at the lower level, and the glut ahead of Smitty due to the carryover from those 2008+ rosters, which put a squeeze on Quincey, Ericsson and Kindl as well.
I don't know how a whopping two years in Grand Rapids qualifies as repression but ok. Maybe I'm missing something but Brendan Smith was in no way an NHL player straight out of college. Definitely not with a contender. He's still a prospect even at this point. Throwing him into the fire might have been great for him-or maybe it would've ruined him. Who knows? All I'm saying is playing him two years ago doesn't necessarily equal big NHL contract today.

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07-10-2013, 07:53 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Yzerberg View Post
I don't know how a whopping two years in Grand Rapids qualifies as repression but ok. Maybe I'm missing something but Brendan Smith was in no way an NHL player straight out of college. Definitely not with a contender. He's still a prospect even at this point. Throwing him into the fire might have been great for him-or maybe it would've ruined him. Who knows? All I'm saying is playing him two years ago doesn't necessarily equal big NHL contract today.
We do know it cost him around 1.8 million dollars.

I don't know one way or the other what would have happened if he was rushed or not. But have been saying for a little while these guys were going to try and get back their money. Ericsson was just the first sign of that. Abdelkader and Helm gave no breaks either in my opinion.

If I had to be on one guy in our system that is going to be a ton of fun when it gets down to talking Turkey it is going to be Tatar. Part of the reason he wanted to be overseas last year, get more $$$. That is these guys right, don't know that I would be any different, but we are going to probably see more of this in our future.

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07-10-2013, 07:58 PM
  #56
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There were times last year he certainly looked like he needed that extra year in Grand Rapids. I'm not so sure he was a home run to be up a year earlier, but hey, it's really impossible to say for sure.

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07-10-2013, 07:58 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
And what multimillions are you predicting him to get?
Where in my post did I say I think he is worth "multimillions" Hint: I didn't.

The only thing I stated is I think Holland buries our prospects to try and manager/lower their cap-hits, and I think it rubs some guys the wrong way.

Also I think they have a right seeing as how there is a pretty considerable difference between an AHL salary and an NHl salary, and if I am one of those guys I am going to want to re-coop some of that money.

We saw it with Hudler, and I think we may see it again with some of these prospects if we don't watch it.

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07-10-2013, 08:00 PM
  #58
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Good, have the umpire pop in some game tape from this season and he will be awarded minimum wage

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07-10-2013, 08:01 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
There were times last year he certainly looked like he needed that extra year in Grand Rapids. I'm not so sure he was a home run to be up a year earlier, but hey, it's really impossible to say for sure.
Absolutely a fair point, and none of us know what would happen if he indeed had more NHL games under his belt.

In my personal opinion, I think timing/momentum is pretty important in development. Maybe if Smith is allowed to ride out that .5 ppg wave he was on during his call-up in the 11-12 season, he comes into the 12-13 season with way more confidence and is a different player. To me the player I saw in 11-12 and the one in 12-13 looked like two different guys.


Last edited by Frk It: 07-10-2013 at 08:10 PM.
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07-10-2013, 08:04 PM
  #60
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I understand that he had a rough playoffs, but I don't understand why Smith is so disliked by Wings fans. Obviously his most recent (poor) performances tend to stand out in everyone's mind, but when taken as a whole I think Smith's play up to this point has been just fine. He has 20 points in his first 62 NHL games (including playoffs) and his possession numbers have been solid despite playing more difficult minutes than 2012's breakout defenseman Jakub Kindl. Does he still have a long way to go as a player? Of course. However, the reality is that most defensemen pushed into prominent roles early in their career go through some struggles.

I'll admit that I was one of the many fans who was frustrated by Ericsson and Kindl early in their careers before watching both players break out this year. I've promised myself that I'm not going to make that mistake with Smith.

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07-10-2013, 08:06 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
We do know it cost him around 1.8 million dollars.

I don't know one way or the other what would have happened if he was rushed or not. But have been saying for a little while these guys were going to try and get back their money. Ericsson was just the first sign of that. Abdelkader and Helm gave no breaks either in my opinion.

If I had to be on one guy in our system that is going to be a ton of fun when it gets down to talking Turkey it is going to be Tatar. Part of the reason he wanted to be overseas last year, get more $$$. That is these guys right, don't know that I would be any different, but we are going to probably see more of this in our future.
I would like to have seen Smitty stay up year before last and play with No. 5 and get some playoff experience. Otherwise I think his career is right where it should be. Just my opinion.

Tatar is interesting but I have a sneaking suspicion he's getting traded.

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07-10-2013, 08:12 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Inspiration View Post
I understand that he had a rough playoffs, but I don't understand why Smith is so disliked by Wings fans. Obviously his most recent (poor) performances tend to stand out in everyone's mind, but when taken as a whole I think Smith's play up to this point has been just fine. He has 20 points in his first 62 NHL games (including playoffs) and his possession numbers have been solid despite playing more difficult minutes than 2012's breakout defenseman Jakub Kindl. Does he still have a long way to go as a player? Of course. However, the reality is that most defensemen pushed into prominent roles early in their career go through some struggles.

I'll admit that I was one of the many fans who was frustrated by Ericsson and Kindl early in their careers before watching both players break out this year. I've promised myself that I'm not going to make that mistake with Smith.
Who was the last defensive prospect that was put in the top four (and top three status if you count the ice time per game) right out of GR? I think Kronwall and Fischer are the only guys I recall making it into the top four, and at similar ages, though Fischer may have been a year younger?

Both were really ridden hard by fans in their first couple of years too. Fischer was viewed as someone who just wasn't going to meet his projections, and Kronwall was deemed to injury-prone with not enough offensive skill to make-up for his defensive lapses.


Fischer and Kronwall weren't held back though because the entire cycle hadn't been waylaid at that point. Smitty had to wait for Ericsson and Kindl to get worked in, on top of beating out vets for a job that our prospects often have to do.

If you consider the pay in the AHL is $75K and the minimum for these guys in the NHL is in the $850-900K range? Yes, it's the difference between night and day. Their career could be over any moment. Most don't last five years.

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07-10-2013, 08:20 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Inspiration View Post
I understand that he had a rough playoffs, but I don't understand why Smith is so disliked by Wings fans. Obviously his most recent (poor) performances tend to stand out in everyone's mind, but when taken as a whole I think Smith's play up to this point has been just fine. He has 20 points in his first 62 NHL games (including playoffs) and his possession numbers have been solid despite playing more difficult minutes than 2012's breakout defenseman Jakub Kindl. Does he still have a long way to go as a player? Of course. However, the reality is that most defensemen pushed into prominent roles early in their career go through some struggles.

I'll admit that I was one of the many fans who was frustrated by Ericsson and Kindl early in their careers before watching both players break out this year. I've promised myself that I'm not going to make that mistake with Smith.
Overly high expectations mostly and disappointment.

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07-10-2013, 08:21 PM
  #64
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Oh, and several guys have filed for arbitration, just not all of them have gone to arbitration. Iirc Filppula, Hudler, and Quincey all filed, no? Only Hudler ended up having a case, but he'd already bolted for the KHL, of the recent guys. Can't recall if Kronwall ever filed, after his ELC.

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07-10-2013, 08:29 PM
  #65
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Only one "golden boy" allowed at a time on defense --- and that's Dekeyser (for now).
I don't know what Smith hopes to accomplish in arbitration or how he plans to accomplish it.

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07-10-2013, 08:31 PM
  #66
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Smith's playoff wasn't that bad. It seemed that's way because the mistakes he made against Chicago were catastrophic. IMO he had the worst possible defense partner which didn't help

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07-10-2013, 08:39 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Yzerberg View Post
Smith's playoff wasn't that bad. It seemed that's way because the mistakes he made against Chicago were catastrophic. IMO he had the worst possible defense partner which didn't help
Not at all. Q was pretty good in the playoffs as far as I'm concerned. Just as people are way too hard on Smith, the same goes for Q. I'm still very high on Smith. He should have been playing in St. Nicks last season. That's on Kenny and Babcock.

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07-10-2013, 08:42 PM
  #68
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Not at all. Q was pretty good in the playoffs as far as I'm concerned. Just as people are way too hard on Smith, the same goes for Q. I'm still very high on Smith. He should have been playing in St. Nicks last season. That's on Kenny and Babcock.
I think he means in terms of style/communication.

Quincey did have a very good playoffs, I agree, but it seemed to me like they did not have established roles together and had a lot of communication mis-haps.

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07-10-2013, 08:47 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
detroit hasent drafted and devloped a good player who wouldnt have been good had they been drafted elsewhere
Jonathan Ericsson?

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but if smith is good and is a legit NHL dman he would be so no matter where he was drafted to

if i were him i would want to know the average total NHL earnings of all 2007 1st rd drafted players, subtract what I have made total and demand the difference

so if the average 2007 1st rounder has made a combined 2.5 million and i have made just 500k then i want that 2 milion or whatever it happens to be
That's a poor case. Smith was a very late first rounder, and most of the earnings go to the very top picks (see: Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, etc.) Furthermore, Smith looked raw and out of place much of the year this season, certainly not the performance you would expect from a "polished prospect". He was effectively the #5 defenseman in the regular season, and he's a first-rounder several years removed from his draft year who was given every opportunity to earn ice time. He doesn't deserve "AHL reparations" or anything more than a fair cap hit, which is something around $1m-$1.5m

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07-10-2013, 08:50 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
I think he means in terms of style/communication.

Quincey did have a very good playoffs, I agree, but it seemed to me like they did not have established roles together and had a lot of communication mis-haps.
Got it. I'd put most of those mistakes in communication on Smith. Smith was put in a tough spot and seemed overwhelmed. He'll learn and get better. I'd prefer Kindl and DD play in the top 4 together. And I think Babcock likes the Q and Smith pairing due to his reluctance to break 'em up. I'm hesitant to break up Kronner and Big E. But I hope Babcock experiments throughout the season with parings.

Kronwall-DD
Smith-Big E
Quincey-Kindl


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07-10-2013, 08:51 PM
  #71
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Got it. I'd put most of those mistakes in communication on Smith. Smith was put in a tough spot and seemed overwhelmed. He'll learn and get better. I'd prefer Kindl and DD play in the top 4 together. And I think Babcock likes the Q and Smith pairing due to his reluctance to break 'em up. I'm hesitant to break up Kronner and Big E. But I hope Babcock experiments throughout the season with parings.

Kronwall-DD
Smith-Big E
Quincey-Kindl

Last year I think Kindl-Dekeyser would have been a better 2nd pairing than Quincey-Smith if they were given the same minutes and match-ups.

I might get flamed for it, but whatever. I definitely agree with you.

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07-10-2013, 09:00 PM
  #72
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Last year I think Kindl-Dekeyser would have been a better 2nd pairing than Quincey-Smith if they were given the same minutes and match-ups.

I might get flamed for it, but whatever. I definitely agree with you.
The thing is I make up a d lineup and ideally who I would like to see paired up leaves me with Q and Smith on the 3rd pair always

As of right now I'm higher and have more trust in DD and Kindl. Don't wanna put Smith in a top 4 role when those two have proven more IMO. Even with DD only playing a couple games.

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07-10-2013, 09:01 PM
  #73
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Filing for arbitation is a tool players use to speed up negotiations. It is quite common and doesnt mean he's a d-bag, hollands low balling etc.

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07-10-2013, 09:01 PM
  #74
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I know. But I'm just hoping the Wings overpay these guys in the short term so they can't bring back he who shant be mentioned.
The status of he who shan't be mentioned is more dependent on roster spots and 50-contract-limitations than cap space, although cap space is still an issue when they're talking about paying him the kinds of numbers we've been hearing. Which are insane.

They need to dump a couple roster players as it is, and if they were to sign someone else then that number would go up another notch.

Let's just hope Nill gets HWSBM's ridiculous overpay and injury-inviting deal done soon so we can stop worrying about it.

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Unless they get him to 4-5 yr contract at 2.5-3 mil, I agree. And I don't see them doing that.

Second contract is always small unless you're a star.

Subban got what, 2.8 mil?

Leddy 2.7 mil.

Kulikov 2.5 mil.

And if Smith could make a case for that type of money, he would also be much better player.
Smith can't make a case that he's remotely close to those players at this stage in his career.

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Sort of a part of Smith's argument will be that he was #3 in playoff ice time and tied for the team lead in defensive scoring.

Also he will come up with player comparisons and relative market value. He might even argue in front of the arbitrator with press clippings backing this up that he was stuck in the minors "while ready" losing money.
Cue up the tape, and those numbers all vanish. They won't go all the way to arb with him though - they never do, and they won't want to have to play that tape of him getting primary assists on a dozen playoff goals against. It's just bad business.

Quote:
This will be an interesting case, can see him getting somewhere between 3.5 to 4.5 over 2 years. Also will a two year contract take him to another RFA deal just short of UFA?

Quite frankly I am pretty happy with this, it means we cannot fall victim to an offer-sheet on him.
He's not the guy I'd be worried about as far as an offer sheet. I don't particularly care about Andersson but the longer Nyquist sits out there unsigned (even if it's by design for cap and roster manipulation purposes), the more heartburn I get.

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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
They repressed him more than developed him! Coaches wanted him up two years ago. On most other teams, he would have been worked in after he left the NCAA, maybe splitting time between the A and NHL. Some teams develop their players in the NHL. The main reason the Wings didn't do so is due to their own philosophy of having old guys mixed in even at the lower level, and the glut ahead of Smitty due to the carryover from those 2008+ rosters, which put a squeeze on Quincey, Ericsson and Kindl as well.
I think the Wings considered Smith's offense and skating to be NHL-ready right away, but they wanted him to work on his defensive play in GR.

He does not appear to have worked on it very hard. Or rather, if he has been working on it, it doesn't show.

A good long NHL season will do him a lot of good IMO. With the short sprint season, the playoff chase, and then the intensity of the playoffs themselves, Smitty clearly started drowning and couldn't get a second to calm himself down and catch his breath.

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07-10-2013, 09:01 PM
  #75
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Jonathan Ericsson?



That's a poor case. Smith was a very late first rounder, and most of the earnings go to the very top picks (see: Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, etc.) Furthermore, Smith looked raw and out of place much of the year this season, certainly not the performance you would expect from a "polished prospect". He was effectively the #5 defenseman in the regular season, and he's a first-rounder several years removed from his draft year who was given every opportunity to earn ice time. He doesn't deserve "AHL reparations" or anything more than a fair cap hit, which is something around $1m-$1.5m
thats why i said average based on assuming Smith is an average 2007 st rd pick, not the top pick but hopefully good enough to have been the #15 pick

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