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Should the NHL rethink the Norris trophy?

View Poll Results: Should there be 2 separate Norris trophies given out?
Yes 130 53.06%
No 103 42.04%
Undecided 12 4.90%
Voters: 245. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-10-2013, 11:59 PM
  #26
08SeaBass08
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There's no need to change the award. Perhaps a need to better define the criteria, or as others have suggested, improve the knowledge base of the voters.

That's because players like Karlsson and Letang should never even be finalists, let alone winners for this award. At least Subban actually knows how to defend, when not flopping.

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07-11-2013, 12:05 AM
  #27
Cleatus
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Undecided... How about we get rid of the worthless journalist voters altogether.

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07-11-2013, 12:42 AM
  #28
TT1
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if there was a defensive defenseman trophy then vlasic would win it every year

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Old
07-11-2013, 12:46 AM
  #29
Bubba88
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It became a joke when it was handed to the offense only DMen. Most of them don't even play the tough minutes and against the other teams best teams.

Should go to the best all around D, not offense only.

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07-11-2013, 12:50 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Trance Kuja View Post
The NHL just needs more competent voters.
Came here to post exactly this.
I'd settle for transparency like the MLB does. At least force them to own up to their votes.

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07-11-2013, 12:52 AM
  #31
GuineaPig
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There's this weird thing going around where people assume that if you put up lots of points you can't play defence. Subban deserved it this year. Karlsson deserved it last year. They're far more effective than you give them credit for.

And here's why: playing offence is playing defence. Well, actually, playing offence is playing perfect defence. Unless you've got Toskala in nets, the other team can't score from behind their own blueline. When your team has the puck and is controlling the play, the other team is reduced to nothing offensively. That's a way better result than just being more effective within your own defensive zone.

Karlsson and Subban are puck possession hounds. They tilt the ice in favour of their team, and that has massive implications because it drastically improves their team defensively and offensively. Also, they're both much better in their own zone than people give them credit. Karlsson is arguably the best in the league with defending with his stick and transitioning to offence, and Subban is a great PKer and huge physical presence. People are just sore that their favourite players get snubbed and so they bitterly claim it's all about points.


Last edited by GuineaPig: 07-11-2013 at 05:37 AM.
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07-11-2013, 12:58 AM
  #32
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Doesn't really matter. Karlsson would still win which ever.

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07-11-2013, 01:02 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Rayzorexe View Post
If they plan to make a trophy for highest scoring defenseman in a season, they should name after Bobby Orr (for obvious reasons) or Ray Bourque (highest scoring defenseman in NHL history)
Totally Agree. One for each would be nice, as they are completely different. Best Shutdown Defenseman, Best Offensive Defeseman.

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07-11-2013, 01:07 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
There's this weird thing going around where people assume that if you put up lots of points you can't play defence. Subban deserved it this year. Karlsson deserved it last year. They're far more effective than you give them credit for.

And here's why: playing offence is playing defence. Well, actually, playing offence is playing perfect defence. Unless you've got Toskala in nets, the other team can't score from behind their own blueline. When your team has the puck and is controlling the play, the other team is reduced to nothing offensively. That's a way better result than just being more effective within your own defensive zone.

Karlsson and Subban and puck possession hounds. They tilt the ice in favour of their team, and that has massive implications because it drastically improves their team defensively and offensively. Also, they're both much better in their own zone than people give them credit. Karlsson is arguably the best in the league with defending with his stick and transitioning to offence, and Subban is a great PKer and huge physical presence. People are just sore that their favourite players get snubbed and so they bitterly claim it's all about points.
Spot on. I think there were cases for others guys each year, but they were still good choices. I think this is also my biggest beef with splitting up the award, because it's so hard to separate offense and defense in the league. Defensemen who can control the play are basically doing both at once. And while some guys might be better solely within their own zone, if they can't do anything with the puck once they get it but flip it out of the zone and give it back to the other team, eventually that great defense will be beaten.

I do agree there's some issues with the writers, particularly beat writers, not having much knowledge beyond their own teams. If they were to split it it might make more sense to do it based on conferences, so at least they're seeing more of the guys they're voting for.

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07-11-2013, 01:11 AM
  #35
JS19
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Personally, I'd get rid of the voters who pretend to know how defense is played (by looking at their stat sheet rather than watch the game), and have the Norris decided by the top tier knowledgeable voters (maybe even update the definition of the Norris Trophy to further increase the standards and knowledge base of the critics).

But I'm intrigued by the idea of highest scoring defenseman award + best defensive defenseman.

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07-11-2013, 01:38 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradise View Post
I see some no votes, but no comments as to why. Care to share your opinions?
I think your premise is flawed. Only 5 of the last 15 Norris trophy winners had the most points by a defenseman in their winning season. 3 of those trophies were won by hall of fame dmen (Lidstrom, MacInnis); 1 of them tied for the points lead (Subban) and 1 of them obliterated the competition points-wise (Karlsson).

Adding an "Art Ross" style trophy for most points by a defenseman wouldn't change how the Norris trophy is voted on. It would just be one extra throw in trophy award.

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07-11-2013, 01:38 AM
  #37
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Subban was the best D-man in 2013. I see not a problem here.

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07-11-2013, 01:43 AM
  #38
Regal
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
Totally Agree. One for each would be nice, as they are completely different. Best Shutdown Defenseman, Best Offensive Defeseman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JS19 View Post
But I'm intrigued by the idea of highest scoring defenseman award + best defensive defenseman.
What I don't understand about this opinion is why would you want to reward two lesser defenseman rather than one defenseman that's the best.

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07-11-2013, 02:50 AM
  #39
Todds Chiropractory
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Not supporting more trophies. If anything we should have less, having a whole lineup of trophies takes away from what they should represent. If anything the voting format should be completely re-evaluated to ensure that the best DEFENSEman of the year wins the trophy. Not necessarily picking who you thought had the best season out of the top 5 defensemen in points on nhl.com.

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07-11-2013, 04:47 AM
  #40
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The Norris is bull now.

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07-11-2013, 05:07 AM
  #41
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I would dare to say that the offensive contributions from defenseman are underrated around here. For example, Karlsson still gets his Norris win trashed, yet he absolutely destroyed all of his competition in points and overall made the greatest positive impact for his team.

I think the Norris is fine as it is, and although I think Suter deserved it this year, Subban was imo right behind him so I am fine with PK getting it. It should be for the best defenseman, not just the best all around guy. Karlsson brings more than any other defenseman and will help you win more games in comparison to many defenseman who play better in their own end.


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07-11-2013, 05:53 AM
  #42
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The Norris trophy is what it is and is supposed to be the best all around player at the defense position. Subban and Karlsson clearly were not the best all around players at the defense position. Guys like Chara, Suter, and Weber are the best all around at the position.

If the people who vote on this didn't make it into a scoring trophy we wouldn't need to have another trophy. The voters ignore what the trophy is for and think that they know better and that the highest scorer should win this. If you ever listen to NHL radio on Siriusxm you will hear almost all of them argue that it should be for what they think it should be for and not what it was intended to be for.

So yes, there should be a Bobby Orr trophy for top scoring D.

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07-11-2013, 07:20 AM
  #43
Blind Gardien
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
There's this weird thing going around where people assume that if you put up lots of points you can't play defence. Subban deserved it this year. Karlsson deserved it last year. They're far more effective than you give them credit for.

And here's why: playing offence is playing defence. Well, actually, playing offence is playing perfect defence. Unless you've got Toskala in nets, the other team can't score from behind their own blueline. When your team has the puck and is controlling the play, the other team is reduced to nothing offensively. That's a way better result than just being more effective within your own defensive zone.

Karlsson and Subban are puck possession hounds. They tilt the ice in favour of their team, and that has massive implications because it drastically improves their team defensively and offensively. Also, they're both much better in their own zone than people give them credit. Karlsson is arguably the best in the league with defending with his stick and transitioning to offence, and Subban is a great PKer and huge physical presence. People are just sore that their favourite players get snubbed and so they bitterly claim it's all about points.
Great post. I don't think there should be any problem with Karlsson or Subban winning it. Ironically, it seems like the sportswriters, for all that some are maligning them, might just be more aware of these players than the people maligning them?

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07-11-2013, 07:33 AM
  #44
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Give the Norris trophy to the defenseman who shows the best defensive qualities, and another separate one for most points by a D-man.

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07-11-2013, 07:46 AM
  #45
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There's nothing wrong with the Norris so no.

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07-11-2013, 08:42 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milan the Great View Post
I remember I read a story last year. Team 1200 had Bruce Garrioch on. They asked him who his ballot for the Norris would be (this was about 3/4 through the season). He said Niklas Lidstrom. The interviewer was almost laughing and asked him how often he said he'd seen Lidstrom play. Garrioch avoided the question. He asked him again, and Garrioch said twice. One against the Sens (opening game) and one other game throughout the season.

The scary part is, he has a ballot.

I agree that 2 games is silly to make any judgement, BUT no one can watch every game played in the NHL to properly evaluate players

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07-11-2013, 09:29 AM
  #47
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Not sure how keeping the term "all-around" avoids any future ambiguity.

Either best offence/best defence or keep it the way it is.

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07-11-2013, 09:38 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
There's this weird thing going around where people assume that if you put up lots of points you can't play defence. Subban deserved it this year. Karlsson deserved it last year. They're far more effective than you give them credit for.

And here's why: playing offence is playing defence. Well, actually, playing offence is playing perfect defence. Unless you've got Toskala in nets, the other team can't score from behind their own blueline. When your team has the puck and is controlling the play, the other team is reduced to nothing offensively. That's a way better result than just being more effective within your own defensive zone.

Karlsson and Subban are puck possession hounds. They tilt the ice in favour of their team, and that has massive implications because it drastically improves their team defensively and offensively. Also, they're both much better in their own zone than people give them credit. Karlsson is arguably the best in the league with defending with his stick and transitioning to offence, and Subban is a great PKer and huge physical presence. People are just sore that their favourite players get snubbed and so they bitterly claim it's all about points.
It doesnt matter how many times this is stated, people cant get it threw their heads. Karlsson and Subban get the puck, and get it up ice better than anyone. Therefore they are not making hits, and blocking shots as much cause they have the G'damn puck all the time.

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07-11-2013, 09:40 AM
  #49
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Hey guys you know what? Take a look at the past winners, points played a pretty big part then too.

People need to actually watch these players before commenting, Karlsson and Subban can play pretty good defense and for anyone going to argue against me saying Karlsson sucked defensively in the Playoffs, well 2 things: 1, he was playing injured, 2, he didn't win the Norris for his play in the playoffs.

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07-11-2013, 11:26 AM
  #50
JS19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Regal View Post
What I don't understand about this opinion is why would you want to reward two lesser defenseman rather than one defenseman that's the best.
Because unknowledgeable voters tend to vote for defensemen who are up high in the score sheet instead of by watching his ability on the ice. If you do that, you eliminate the affinity that noob voters have for high scoring d-men.

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